Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

[The Biblicist]

God created Adam "upright". Adam sinned.

Adam did not become un-upright and then sin but sinned in the same nature he was given.

Provide a verse detailing how Adam changed from "good" to "bad" prior to the transgression. You cant because you are dealing with philosophy and not Scripture. No passage presents Adam 's nature as changing. No passage presents man as having a different nature than Adam possessed.

We are responsible for our own death (another issue!....prove the issue was a spiritual rather than physical death).

Totally amazing how you simply deflect and ignore my challenge while shifting to another challenge toward me- totally amazing! I ask you to show me one instance where harmatia is ever viewed as anything but evil and your response is? Ignore and issue me another challenge! Totally Amazing, that is why I get so frustrated dealing that type of mentality as there can be no real debate.

Even more amazing is that you change the subject by issuing me another challenge and then answer it in my behalf and claim victory - totally amazing. No substantive conclusions can ever be attained by dealing with that kind of rationale - just a contiuing circle of futility.

However, your challenge is easy to answer. When did God say Adam would die? Did he say 930 years later you will die or "in the day you eat"?? Come on I know you can answer this question!

Hence, when did this concept of "die" enter God's creation? When did Paul say it entered the world in Romans 5:12?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; - Rom.5:12a

So, when did "death" enter this world? At creation? Or at the point when "sin" entered this world by the singular act of disobedience that Paul goes on talking about in Romans 5:15-19?????

So, this sin and this death were not part of original creation because they "entered" afterwards. Right?

So, now how do we define this "death"? What is it? Did he PHYSICALLY die "in the day he ate"? No! He did not physically die until 930 years of age.

So, what is this "death"? It is "spiritual separation from God"! What does that entail? Have you read post #135??? Not yet? I suggest you read it at this very point right now if you have not, because I prove that "spiritual separation from God" is a STATE OF SIN as a moral condition of man that had no existence prior to that one act of disobedience and it is this MORAL CONDITION or STATE of sin that is "passed unto all men".

So a CHANGE OF MORAL CONDITION occurred with the fall that is transmitted/passed unto all his descendants as that is now the characteristic of the fallen human nature - case closed.

 

[JonC]

Totally amazing how you simply deflect and ignore my challenge while shifting to another challenge toward me- totally amazing! I ask you to show me one instance where harmatia is ever viewed as anything but evil and your response is? Ignore and issue me another challenge! Totally Amazing, that is why I get so frustrated dealing that type of mentality as there can be no real debate.

Even more amazing is that you change the subject by issuing me another challenge and then answer it in my behalf and claim victory - totally amazing. No substantive conclusions can ever be attained by dealing with that kind of rationale - just a contiuing circle of futility.

However, your challenge is easy to answer. When did God say Adam would die? Did he say 930 years later you will die or "in the day you eat"?? Come on I know you can answer this question!

Hence, when did this concept of "die" enter God's creation? When did Paul say it entered the world in Romans 5:12?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; - Rom.5:12a

So, when did "death" enter this world? At creation? Or at the point when "sin" entered this world by the singular act of disobedience that Paul goes on talking about in Romans 5:15-19?????

So, this sin and this death were not part of original creation because they "entered" afterwards. Right?

So, now how do we define this "death"? What is it? Did he PHYSICALLY die "in the day he ate"? No! He did not physically die until 930 years of age.

So, what is this "death"? It is "spiritual separation from God"! What does that entail? Have you read post #135??? Not yet? I suggest you read it at this very point right now if you have not, because I prove that "spiritual separation from God" is a STATE OF SIN as a moral condition of man that had no existence prior to that one act of disobedience and it is this MORAL CONDITION or STATE of sin that is "passed unto all men".

So a CHANGE OF MORAL CONDITION occurred with the fall that is transmitted/passed unto all his descendants as that is now the characteristic of the fallen human nature - case closed.

Your question does not make sense.

Sin is never called "good". Human nature is not called morally good. Satan's presence in Creation is not called "good". That does not mean your assumption that Adam's nature ontologically changed is correct.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your question does not make sense.

Sin is never called "good". Human nature is not called morally good. Satan's presence in Creation is not called "good". That does not mean your assumption that Adam's nature ontologically changed is correct.

So, you are going to side step the whole post and talk about this? You are the one that said harmatia was "good" as you are the one that said it was the natural part of creation which God pronounced as "very good" - Not me!

There was no "Satan" when God said everything was "very good" only the yet unfallen angel Lucifer.

So, are you going to argue that human nature coming from God's hand in Genesis 1:26-27 in OUR IMAGE and in OUR LIKENESS was less than "good"? Solomon said God made man "upright" and that has moral overtones - he is not talking about his physical posture as man still walks around on two legs.

Come on jon, deal with the evidence placed squarely before you! Death described in Genesis 2:17 did not have its origin in natural creation. This death is spiritual separation from God as a STATE or CONDITION descriptive of fallen man and that STATE is one and the same as a SINFUL STATE as Paul proves in Ephesians 4:18-19. That STATE characterizes fallen man and it is that state which is "passed" down to his descendents and that is why they can suffer physical death EVEN IN THE WOMB.

Your view has been proven false - completely and totally false as there was a change in the human nature "in that day" he ate as human nature not only became subject to death AT THAT POINT IN TIME but EXISTS IN A STATE OF DEATH - spiritual separation which is one and the same as the STATE OF SIN from that point in time forward.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your question does not make sense.

In the interest of being fair, what question are you referring to that you think makes no sense as I asked several questions in that post?

 

[The Biblicist]

So, you are going to side step the whole post and talk about this? You are the one that said harmatia was "good" as you are the one that said it was the natural part of creation which God pronounced as "very good" - Not me!

There was no "Satan" when God said everything was "very good" only the yet unfallen angel Lucifer.

So, are you going to argue that human nature coming from God's hand in Genesis 1:26-27 in OUR IMAGE and in OUR LIKENESS was less than "good"? Solomon said God made man "upright" and that has moral overtones - he is not talking about his physical posture as man still walks around on two legs.

Come on jon, deal with the evidence placed squarely before you! Death described in Genesis 2:17 did not have its origin in natural creation. This death is spiritual separation from God as a STATE or CONDITION descriptive of fallen man and that STATE is one and the same as a SINFUL STATE as Paul proves in Ephesians 4:18-19. That STATE characterizes fallen man and it is that state which is "passed" down to his descendents and that is why they can suffer physical death EVEN IN THE WOMB.

Your view has been proven false - completely and totally false as there was a change in the human nature "in that day" he ate as human nature not only became subject to death AT THAT POINT IN TIME but EXISTS IN A STATE OF DEATH - spiritual separation which is one and the same as the STATE OF SIN from that point in time forward.

By the way don't you agree that to exist in spiritual separation from God is sin? Don't you agree to exist in spiritual darkness is sin? Don't you agree that being "given over unto....all uncleaness" is sin? Hence, spiritual separation is THE STATE OF SIN and that is why we are SINNERS BY NATURE as that is the moral state of our nature since Genesis 3.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your question does not make sense.

Sin is never called "good". Human nature is not called morally good. Satan's presence in Creation is not called "good". That does not mean your assumption that Adam's nature ontologically changed is correct.

By the way don't you agree that to exist in spiritual separation from God is sin? Don't you agree to exist in spiritual darkness is sin? Don't you agree that being "given over unto....all uncleaness" is sin? Don't you agree that possessing a heart that is "past feeling" and "hardened" is sin? That is the description of the unregenerate state of fallen man Paul describes in Ephesians 4:18-19. Hence, spiritual separation is THE STATE OF SIN and that is why we are SINNERS BY NATURE as that is the moral state of our nature since Genesis 3.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have not answered my question. Are we sinners BEFORE we commit any disobedience on our part. And if so, what constitutes us being viewed as sinners? What law did we break to constitute us as sinners as sin is the violation of the law. - Biblicist

Do we have a nature that "misses the mark"? Yes, absolutely. We are just like Adam prior to the Fall.
Will we be carried away by our own lusts and sin, just like Adam did? Yes, absolutely.

Just like Adam, our sins are manifestations of our nature. -Jon C Post #15


↑
Please explain to us how God could create all things and pronounce them as "good" and yet create Adam a sinner (harmatia) when Solomon says God created man "upright"??

Taking the definition of sin "come short of the glory of God" how can that be a basis for just condemnation as demanded by the context in Romans 3:9-23 and yet God pronounce that to be "good" since you believe Adam was created with a sinful nature or nature that comes short of the glory of God. How can harmatia be condemned and yet God call it "good"???
Adam was good until he wasn't. No need to read more into it than Scripture provides. Adam sinned. - Biblicist

The difference may be how we use "good". Obviously this is not in a moral context as God prounced all of creation "good". I believe here it is in accordance to God's plan and design.

Years ago I had a very good dog. Then he bit me and became a bad dog. The dog did not actually change (it was always a Calvinist....just didn't know it. ). -Jon C - Post #20

Now, I have reposted the issue found in posts#15 and 20 above. Your position is clear. You believe that harmatia was a part of the created nature of man before and after the fall. It is not! I provided evidence it is not. I have challenged you to find one scripture were harmatia is ever viewed by God as "good" and not "evil" - just one! You cannot not, you have not. Your view is simply wrong and unprovable by Scripture.


I HAVE REPOSTED THIS TO MAKE CLEAR IT IS YOUR STATED POSITION THAT HARMATIA (SIN) WAS PART OF GOD'S ORIGINAL CREATION AND CHARACTERIZED MAN PRIOR TO THE EVENT IN GENESIS 3

 

[The Biblicist]

Got to put it down for a while - be back later

 

[Yeshua1]

who?
Jesus said,
John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed alljudgment unto the Son:

and
Jhn 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Who declares us guilty after Adam's fall?

God the Father, as all save for Jesus are physical born into a condemned and spiritual dead state before God!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are jerking texts out of context. John 5:22 refers to the future judgement at His coming, while Jn. 8:15 refers to his incarnation period because he did not have to judge anyone because "they are condemned already" (Jn. 3:17).

Death is condemnation and judgement and all post-fallen men are under the reign of death (Rom. 5:12-19).

It is not judged once we choose to sin, its as already judged and found guilty at birth!

 

[Yeshua1]

I am sure @Biblicist can answer for himself, but:
Genesis 2:25. 'And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.'
Genesis 3:10. 'So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.'
Shame and fear of God were immediate changes in Adam's nature.

They also had to have a Mediator for themselves promised after the fall, as there was no need for Messiah in their original pristine state!

 

[Yeshua1]

A hint is in your begging the question and what I said about God's declaration Creation in toto was "good".

My comments answer your question, although I realize it is probably not the answer you want.

The creation before the Fall had no sin nor death in it, as even the animals were not attacking killing each other, as there were no meat eaters then!

 

[Yeshua1]

Shame and fear are changes in one's nature???

I need you to prove that one, Martin.

Adam and Eve were afraid of God for the very first time after they fell!

 

[Yeshua1]

God created Adam "upright". Adam sinned.

Adam did not become un-upright and then sin but sinned in the same nature he was given.

Provide a verse detailing how Adam changed from "good" to "bad" prior to the transgression. You cant because you are dealing with philosophy and not Scripture. No passage presents Adam 's nature as changing. No passage presents man as having a different nature than Adam possessed.

We are responsible for our own death (another issue!....prove the issue was a spiritual rather than physical death).

The Hebrews treated Adam's transgression as resulting in a physical death, not a spiritual one. You need to justify spiritualizing the passage in Genesis.

Adam sinned and his eyes were opened. Adam was removed from the Garden (he no longer had that access to God). God still conversed with Adam and Adam still worshipped God. But a reconcilation was needed. Adam would die physically and be judged. This judgment is given to Christ. Hades and death will be cast into the Lake of Fire (the second death).

Adam became a sinner by nature, as God had to provide for him what was not needed until the fall, a messiah!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why strange????

Scripture even tells us that the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

And the reason for that is sin. 'Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, "You shall not eat of it," cursed is the ground for your sake' (NIV, 'Because of you'). There was no sin and therefore no curse and therefore no thorns o thistles and no man-eating tigers in the garden before the Fall. If Adam had been born sinful the curse would have been there from the start.

I think maybe if you consider Creation and redemption God-centered rather than man-centered you may change your mind. Redemption itself is for God's glory.

Gosh! What a wonderful insight! You mean Romans 11:36 is in the Bible? Wow! That's right up there with the Pope being catholic and what bears do in the woods!

 

[The Biblicist]

To clarify, I understand you to be saying two things insofar as Adam "pre-Fall" and "post-Fall" (please correct me if I mistake your view):

1. Adam's nature changed from his created nature to a sin nature (which we inherit).

2. Adam died spiritually and this death is a spiritual separation from God.

Do you have any verses that actually state Adam's nature changed (other than his eyes being opened to know good and evil like God...which does mot speak of "nature")?

Do you have any verses that state Adam died spiritually or that Adam was even in possession of "spiritual life" in terms of Christ being Life?

It seems that Adam was removed from the Garden (and a relationship changed). But it also seems God remained very much present with Adam after the Fall. So before we can go forward I think it important to address what you seem to have assumed.

I missed this post - sorry.

In answer to your first question above I do not believe that human nature changed into some other kind of non-human nature. I believe the moral nature of man is what changed as he fell from his "upright" moral nature to a depraved moral nature.

In answer to you second question above is yes.

I believe I have fully answered your next two questions that follow the numerated questions in my post on the nature of spiritual separation being the MORAL STATE OF SIN as characterized by the unregenerate condition.

I am not assuming anything. "death" as defined in Genesis 2:17 was not part of God's original creation of man nor part of his nature when created. Death is part of our human nature as indwelling "law" (Rom. 7) of our fallen nature. Spiritual separation is the STATE of our moral nature as it is a MORAL STATE OF SIN. That condition did not exist prior to the fall. Thus, it changed the MORAL nature of man from that point forward. The prefall moral nature is described as "upright" whereas the sin event in Genesis 3 is the FALL from that "upright" moral nature unto the moral condition described by Paul in Ephesians 4:18-19 which is a MORAL STATE of sin.

Adam sinned and became a sinner by nature. However, due to his sin we are made sinners by moral nature and we sin because of our moral nature.

 

[Yeshua1]

Totally amazing how you simply deflect and ignore my challenge while shifting to another challenge toward me- totally amazing! I ask you to show me one instance where harmatia is ever viewed as anything but evil and your response is? Ignore and issue me another challenge! Totally Amazing, that is why I get so frustrated dealing that type of mentality as there can be no real debate.

Even more amazing is that you change the subject by issuing me another challenge and then answer it in my behalf and claim victory - totally amazing. No substantive conclusions can ever be attained by dealing with that kind of rationale - just a contiuing circle of futility.

However, your challenge is easy to answer. When did God say Adam would die? Did he say 930 years later you will die or "in the day you eat"?? Come on I know you can answer this question!

Hence, when did this concept of "die" enter God's creation? When did Paul say it entered the world in Romans 5:12?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; - Rom.5:12a

So, when did "death" enter this world? At creation? Or at the point when "sin" entered this world by the singular act of disobedience that Paul goes on talking about in Romans 5:15-19?????

So, this sin and this death were not part of original creation because they "entered" afterwards. Right?

So, now how do we define this "death"? What is it? Did he PHYSICALLY die "in the day he ate"? No! He did not physically die until 930 years of age.

So, what is this "death"? It is "spiritual separation from God"! What does that entail? Have you read post #135??? Not yet? I suggest you read it at this very point right now if you have not, because I prove that "spiritual separation from God" is a STATE OF SIN as a moral condition of man that had no existence prior to that one act of disobedience and it is this MORAL CONDITION or STATE of sin that is "passed unto all men".

So a CHANGE OF MORAL CONDITION occurred with the fall that is transmitted/passed unto all his descendants as that is now the characteristic of the fallen human nature - case closed.

Adam experience spiritual dead when he ate, and that caused also him to die much later physically!

 

[JonC]

You have not answered my question. Are we sinners BEFORE we commit any disobedience on our part. And if so, what constitutes us being viewed as sinners? What law did we break to constitute us as sinners as sin is the violation of the law. - Biblicist

Do we have a nature that "misses the mark"? Yes, absolutely. We are just like Adam prior to the Fall.
Will we be carried away by our own lusts and sin, just like Adam did? Yes, absolutely.

Just like Adam, our sins are manifestations of our nature. -Jon C Post #15


↑
Please explain to us how God could create all things and pronounce them as "good" and yet create Adam a sinner (harmatia) when Solomon says God created man "upright"??

Taking the definition of sin "come short of the glory of God" how can that be a basis for just condemnation as demanded by the context in Romans 3:9-23 and yet God pronounce that to be "good" since you believe Adam was created with a sinful nature or nature that comes short of the glory of God. How can harmatia be condemned and yet God call it "good"???
Adam was good until he wasn't. No need to read more into it than Scripture provides. Adam sinned. - Biblicist

The difference may be how we use "good". Obviously this is not in a moral context as God prounced all of creation "good". I believe here it is in accordance to God's plan and design.

Years ago I had a very good dog. Then he bit me and became a bad dog. The dog did not actually change (it was always a Calvinist....just didn't know it. ). -Jon C - Post #20

Now, I have reposted the issue found in posts#15 and 20 above. Your position is clear. You believe that harmatia was a part of the created nature of man before and after the fall. It is not! I provided evidence it is not. I have challenged you to find one scripture were harmatia is ever viewed by God as "good" and not "evil" - just one! You cannot not, you have not. Your view is simply wrong and unprovable by Scripture.


I HAVE REPOSTED THIS TO MAKE CLEAR IT IS YOUR STATED POSITION THAT HARMATIA (SIN) WAS PART OF GOD'S ORIGINAL CREATION AND CHARACTERIZED MAN PRIOR TO THE EVENT IN GENESIS 3

You are mistaken.

I am not saying harmatia was "good" or a part of created nature (hence your inability to quote me saying it was).

I am saying harmatia in terms of man's nature never existed. We have a human nature. We need a spiritual nature. It is not a flaw but God's own design.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are mistaken.

I am not saying harmatia was "good" or a part of created nature (hence your inability to quote me saying it was).

I am saying harmatia in terms of man's nature never existed. We have a human nature. We need a spiritual nature. It is not a flaw but God's own design.

The human nature went from a sinless state and spiritual alive to God to a fallen and spiritual dead state to God!

 

[JonShaff]

God always purposed to bring about an eternal creation through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. It was never about Adam and Eve. It was about God's plan to reveal the Glory of His Son for all eternity as we dwell in His presence forever.

Many are starting with the wrong premise-That God's plan was reactionary.

It was not reactionary, God always purposed to bring about a Spiritual Creation. Adam was a natural man, and we are all natural. Christ is the Spiritual man who gives life. And we are brought into the Eternal Spiritual Creation when born of the Word of God and of His Spirit.