Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

Totally amazing how you simply deflect and ignore my challenge while shifting to another challenge toward me- totally amazing! I ask you to show me one instance where harmatia is ever viewed as anything but evil and your response is? Ignore and issue me another challenge! Totally Amazing, that is why I get so frustrated dealing that type of mentality as there can be no real debate.

Even more amazing is that you change the subject by issuing me another challenge and then answer it in my behalf and claim victory - totally amazing. No substantive conclusions can ever be attained by dealing with that kind of rationale - just a contiuing circle of futility.

However, your challenge is easy to answer. When did God say Adam would die? Did he say 930 years later you will die or "in the day you eat"?? Come on I know you can answer this question!

Hence, when did this concept of "die" enter God's creation? When did Paul say it entered the world in Romans 5:12?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; - Rom.5:12a

So, when did "death" enter this world? At creation? Or at the point when "sin" entered this world by the singular act of disobedience that Paul goes on talking about in Romans 5:15-19?????

So, this sin and this death were not part of original creation because they "entered" afterwards. Right?

So, now how do we define this "death"? What is it? Did he PHYSICALLY die "in the day he ate"? No! He did not physically die until 930 years of age.

So, what is this "death"? It is "spiritual separation from God"! What does that entail? Have you read post #135??? Not yet? I suggest you read it at this very point right now if you have not, because I prove that "spiritual separation from God" is a STATE OF SIN as a moral condition of man that had no existence prior to that one act of disobedience and it is this MORAL CONDITION or STATE of sin that is "passed unto all men".

So a CHANGE OF MORAL CONDITION occurred with the fall that is transmitted/passed unto all his descendants as that is now the characteristic of the fallen human nature - case closed.

 

So, you are going to side step the whole post and talk about this? You are the one that said harmatia was "good" as you are the one that said it was the natural part of creation which God pronounced as "very good" - Not me!

There was no "Satan" when God said everything was "very good" only the yet unfallen angel Lucifer.

So, are you going to argue that human nature coming from God's hand in Genesis 1:26-27 in OUR IMAGE and in OUR LIKENESS was less than "good"? Solomon said God made man "upright" and that has moral overtones - he is not talking about his physical posture as man still walks around on two legs.

Come on jon, deal with the evidence placed squarely before you! Death described in Genesis 2:17 did not have its origin in natural creation. This death is spiritual separation from God as a STATE or CONDITION descriptive of fallen man and that STATE is one and the same as a SINFUL STATE as Paul proves in Ephesians 4:18-19. That STATE characterizes fallen man and it is that state which is "passed" down to his descendents and that is why they can suffer physical death EVEN IN THE WOMB.

Your view has been proven false - completely and totally false as there was a change in the human nature "in that day" he ate as human nature not only became subject to death AT THAT POINT IN TIME but EXISTS IN A STATE OF DEATH - spiritual separation which is one and the same as the STATE OF SIN from that point in time forward.

 

In the interest of being fair, what question are you referring to that you think makes no sense as I asked several questions in that post?

 

By the way don't you agree that to exist in spiritual separation from God is sin? Don't you agree to exist in spiritual darkness is sin? Don't you agree that being "given over unto....all uncleaness" is sin? Hence, spiritual separation is THE STATE OF SIN and that is why we are SINNERS BY NATURE as that is the moral state of our nature since Genesis 3.

 

By the way don't you agree that to exist in spiritual separation from God is sin? Don't you agree to exist in spiritual darkness is sin? Don't you agree that being "given over unto....all uncleaness" is sin? Don't you agree that possessing a heart that is "past feeling" and "hardened" is sin? That is the description of the unregenerate state of fallen man Paul describes in Ephesians 4:18-19. Hence, spiritual separation is THE STATE OF SIN and that is why we are SINNERS BY NATURE as that is the moral state of our nature since Genesis 3.

 

You have not answered my question. Are we sinners BEFORE we commit any disobedience on our part. And if so, what constitutes us being viewed as sinners? What law did we break to constitute us as sinners as sin is the violation of the law. - Biblicist

Do we have a nature that "misses the mark"? Yes, absolutely. We are just like Adam prior to the Fall.
Will we be carried away by our own lusts and sin, just like Adam did? Yes, absolutely.

Just like Adam, our sins are manifestations of our nature. -Jon C Post #15


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Please explain to us how God could create all things and pronounce them as "good" and yet create Adam a sinner (harmatia) when Solomon says God created man "upright"??

Taking the definition of sin "come short of the glory of God" how can that be a basis for just condemnation as demanded by the context in Romans 3:9-23 and yet God pronounce that to be "good" since you believe Adam was created with a sinful nature or nature that comes short of the glory of God. How can harmatia be condemned and yet God call it "good"???
Adam was good until he wasn't. No need to read more into it than Scripture provides. Adam sinned. - Biblicist

The difference may be how we use "good". Obviously this is not in a moral context as God prounced all of creation "good". I believe here it is in accordance to God's plan and design.

Years ago I had a very good dog. Then he bit me and became a bad dog. The dog did not actually change (it was always a Calvinist....just didn't know it. ). -Jon C - Post #20

Now, I have reposted the issue found in posts#15 and 20 above. Your position is clear. You believe that harmatia was a part of the created nature of man before and after the fall. It is not! I provided evidence it is not. I have challenged you to find one scripture were harmatia is ever viewed by God as "good" and not "evil" - just one! You cannot not, you have not. Your view is simply wrong and unprovable by Scripture.


I HAVE REPOSTED THIS TO MAKE CLEAR IT IS YOUR STATED POSITION THAT HARMATIA (SIN) WAS PART OF GOD'S ORIGINAL CREATION AND CHARACTERIZED MAN PRIOR TO THE EVENT IN GENESIS 3

 

Got to put it down for a while - be back later

 

I missed this post - sorry.

In answer to your first question above I do not believe that human nature changed into some other kind of non-human nature. I believe the moral nature of man is what changed as he fell from his "upright" moral nature to a depraved moral nature.

In answer to you second question above is yes.

I believe I have fully answered your next two questions that follow the numerated questions in my post on the nature of spiritual separation being the MORAL STATE OF SIN as characterized by the unregenerate condition.

I am not assuming anything. "death" as defined in Genesis 2:17 was not part of God's original creation of man nor part of his nature when created. Death is part of our human nature as indwelling "law" (Rom. 7) of our fallen nature. Spiritual separation is the STATE of our moral nature as it is a MORAL STATE OF SIN. That condition did not exist prior to the fall. Thus, it changed the MORAL nature of man from that point forward. The prefall moral nature is described as "upright" whereas the sin event in Genesis 3 is the FALL from that "upright" moral nature unto the moral condition described by Paul in Ephesians 4:18-19 which is a MORAL STATE of sin.

Adam sinned and became a sinner by nature. However, due to his sin we are made sinners by moral nature and we sin because of our moral nature.