Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

[Martin Marprelate]

You (philosophically) assume Adam's nature changed but cannot provide a passage showing this change

I am sure @Biblicist can answer for himself, but:
Genesis 2:25. 'And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.'
Genesis 3:10. 'So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.'
Shame and fear of God were immediate changes in Adam's nature.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, fellows the usefulness of this thread is past. I have other things calling for my attention that are more important. Have fun!

 

[JonC]

For instance cite or quote one post?

A hint is in your begging the question and what I said about God's declaration Creation in toto was "good".

My comments answer your question, although I realize it is probably not the answer you want.

 

[Gup20]

Free Agency means you have internal restraints upon your power of choice. For example, Jesus said "no man CAN come to me EXCEPT" - Jn. 6:44 which says there are internal restaints that prevent natural man from choosing to come to Christ without divine intervention.

Free Will means you have no internal restraints preventing your choice. Such was the case with Adam before the fall.

However, after the fall and due to the fall internal restraints existed upon the will of man.

You can't quote Jn 6:44 unless you continue to Jn 6:64-65 which tells us the WHY behind 6:44:

Jhn 6:64-65 NASB
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

The reason they can't come to the Father is they do not believe, not the other way around. Calvin interpreted John 6:44 as "the reason they can't believe is because they have not come to the Father" but Jesus said "the reason they can't come to the Father is BECAUSE they do not believe."

I do not believe in "free will"... I believe God offers man a distinct binary choice - choose life or choose death. As far as free agency, God has given us the ability to choose between life and death and said that it is NOT too difficult for us to make this choice, and the choice is not made by God in heaven.

Deu 30:11-15 NASB
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Rom 10:5-8 NASB
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

 

[JonC]

I think it is helpful to those who read the threads. I know what the texts say before I write them out, otherwise I couldn't write them, could I?.

No, I can't tell that at all.

How strange, considering that the original creation had no thorns or thistles (Genesis 3:18). Death came only after the fall (Romans 5:12 etc.), and in the NH&NE, the lion (and presumably the tiger) will eat straw like the ox (Isaiah 65:25), which is presumably a 'good' thing..
I do not see that being 'pretty firm' about a rather gross error is anything to boast about.

Why strange????

Scripture even tells us that the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

I think maybe if you consider Creation and redemption God-centered rather than man-centered you may change your mind. Redemption itself is for God's glory.

 

[JonC]

Shame and fear of God were immediate changes in Adam's nature.

Shame and fear are changes in one's nature???

I need you to prove that one, Martin.

 

[percho]

Now, for the evidence to support my declarations:

1. Sin and death entered this world by one man and one act by this one man:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Rom. 5:12


2. Post-adamic plural sins by post-adamic mankind was not the source of death, condemnation in post-adamic humans.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

How did "many" become sinners? ANSWER: "by one man's disobedience many became sinners"

How did "many" become dead? ANSWER: "through the offence of be many be dead"

How did "many" become condemned? ANSWER: "by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation"

What is the cause of "death" reign over many? ANSWER: "by one man's offence death reigned" and "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin"

Paul is thoroughly repudiating the idea that death and condemnation in all other men has it cause in their own individual sins. He does not say the "by men's disobedience many became sinners". He does not say "through the offences of many that many be dead". He does not say the "offences of many judgement came many." However, this is the conclusion that all who deny my position are forced to embrace.

I just have a few thoughts and questions, relative to Adam, sin, death and other.

Why was Adam created?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Before Adam sinned, was the above a necessity? Had the devil already sinned? Was Adam created in order that the Son of God could be manifested in Adam's likeness? Actually wasn't the Son of God manifested in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin in the flesh? Isn't the destruction of the devil, and his works, brought about through redemption from death that was brought forth by sin? Redemption through blood wherein was the life of the flesh, foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Does not Hebrews 2:14,15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage, show the same thing?

Did Adam fall or was Adam the means to and end?

For the creation < Adam and everything around him) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Romans 8:20
HOPE? For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:19,21

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman < manifested the last Adam) , born under the law, <But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17) to redeem those who were under the law, < see preceding ) that we might receive the adoption as sons. Gal 4:4,5


BTW I had read only the first three post before making this. Will read all now.

 

[percho]

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:4,5Was the darkness of which that good light had been divided from, also Good?

In Chapter 3 we are introduced to the serpent, before the eating of the fruit. Is the serpent also, Good?

 

[percho]

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:18

Relative to Adam, when did the sin of the devil take place? Was it a finished sin? Did it bring forth death to anything?

 

[JonC]

Well, fellows the usefulness of this thread is past. I have other things calling for my attention that are more important. Have fun!

....yea, and we didn't even get to a second point.

I understand giving up. Just got to the room after two hours of walking and my feet are killing me. I guess we are not as young as we once was. Giving up is much easier than sticking with it.

 

[percho]

A question/s for all.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Romans 7:12,14

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When God gave the man Adam created of the flesh the spiritual law, Thou shall not eat of it, did he sell him under sin for the purpose of redemption, already foreordained before the foundation of the world.

See 1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[JonC]

A question/s for all.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. Romans 7:12,14

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When God gave the man Adam created of the flesh the spiritual law, Thou shall not eat of it, did he sell him under sin for the purpose of redemption, already foreordained before the foundation of the world.

See 1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I wouldn't say God sold man under sin. But I do believe God created man in such a way that perfect natural man was always less than "perfected in Christ". Redemption was, IMHO, always the plan. Jesus being the Firstborn of many brothers was not reactionary.

"Pre-Fall" Adam was never perfect "in Christ".

 

[JonShaff]

I wouldn't say God sold man under sin. But I do believe God created man in such a way that perfect natural man was always less than "perfected in Christ". Redemption was, IMHO, always the plan. Jesus being the Firstborn of many brothers was not reactionary.

"Pre-Fall" Adam was never perfect "in Christ".

I think this passage is key towards understanding what you are bringing forward...
1 Corinthians 15:45-47 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[The Biblicist]

....yea, and we didn't even get to a second point.

I understand giving up. Just got to the room after two hours of walking and my feet are killing me. I guess we are not as young as we once was. Giving up is much easier than sticking with it.

I am not a complainer and so I just said that I had more important things to do. My wife has frontal lobal dimensia and is totally and completely helpless and depends upon me for everything. It is irresponsible for me to abandon her for hours just to debate. When my daughters are here that gives me more time. In addition, I am not operating on all 8 cyclinders as I have a bad case of the flu and my energy is low and this kind of work is mentally exhausting and making me sicker. However, rather than complain, I simply said that I had more important matters to attend, one of which was my own health. So, I don't give up as easy as you imagine.

 

[The Biblicist]

A hint is in your begging the question and what I said about God's declaration Creation in toto was "good".

My comments answer your question, although I realize it is probably not the answer you want.

Sorry, but you are simply not dealing with questions direct but ignoring them totally. Anyone can go back through the posts and see clearly that you completely avoided answering the evidence that exposed your harmatia theory was totally false and indefensible.

Now, you have changed your charge from claiming that I restricted "good" to just moral issues (which quotation of my post proved you wrong) to admitting "God's declaration in toto was good" which is an admission you are wrong that harmatia was part of man's nature from the beginning as part of the direct creation by God and proclaimed "very good." There is no excuse for this false claim as harmatia is NEVER justified by God as "good" but is consistently viewed and defined by God as something EVIL. So you are wrong that harmatia was equally part of man's nature before and after the tree incident. You are wrong that it is a non-moral quality.

You are also wrong that that God did not make man as a moral "upright" being according to his own moral "image" as Ephesians 4:24/Col.3:10 describes that image in moral terms - "righteousness and true holiness."

Being wrong in all of the above proves your wrong about the change of moral nature before versus after the fall of Adam because that one act of disobedience concluded with "death" which is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD which is inherently inseparable from entering a STATE OF SIN or being a sinner by nature. How is that so? Glad you asked (lol). Spiritual separation from God is separation from not merely spiritual life found in God alone, but the LIGHT and LOVE and HOLINESS found in God alone and these four characteristics are precisely what Paul uses to describe the unregenerate nature in Ephesians 4:18-19 as they are inseparable from spiritual separation from God and are inclusive of sin itself. Want proof? thanks for asking (lol). The unregenerate state is characterized by Paul as follows:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. - Eph. 4:18-19

This is what it means to be "without God" or spiritually separated from God:

1. God is LIGHT - no light - "darkened" - DARKNESS
2. God is LIFE - no life - "alienated from the life of God" - DEAD
3. God is LOVE - no love - "blindness (hardness) of their heart...being past feeling" - ENMITY
4. God is Holy - no holiness "given themselves over unto...all uncleaness" DEPRAVITY

This is not only the consequences of spiritual separation but this is THE STATE OF SIN as a moral condition of fallen man.

So, when Paul says "death passed upon all men" that means THE STATE OF SIN as a moral condition passed upon all men as death and this sinful condition are inseparable from each other as proven by Paul in Ephesians 4:18-19 and demonstrated above.

 

[JonC]

I am not a complainer and so I just said that I had more important things to do. My wife has frontal lobal dimensia and is totally and completely helpless and depends upon me for everything. It is irresponsible for me to abandon her for hours just to debate. When my daughters are here that gives me more time. In addition, I am not operating on all 8 cyclinders as I have a bad case of the flu and my energy is low and this kind of work is mentally exhausting and making me sicker. However, rather than complain, I simply said that I had more important matters to attend, one of which was my own health. So, I don't give up as easy as you imagine.

To be fair, I was actually addressing the first part of your post about the usefulness of the thread. But we do live hetic lives. The board is more a hobby than a priority for me (I suspect for you also). "Giving up" easily wasn't to be taken as an insult. We are under no obligation to answer each other's questions (I think sometimes people forget that).

Take care if your self and your wife. It is no fun being sick.

 

[The Biblicist]

You can't quote Jn 6:44 unless you continue to Jn 6:64-65 which tells us the WHY behind 6:44:

Jhn 6:64-65 NASB
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

The reason they can't come to the Father is they do not believe, not the other way around. Calvin interpreted John 6:44 as "the reason they can't believe is because they have not come to the Father" but Jesus said "the reason they can't come to the Father is BECAUSE they do not believe."

My friend, John 6:64 states the condition of unbelief while John 6:65 states the reason they are in that condition. Your theory makes no sense to say they are in unbelief because they are in unbelief!! They are in unbelief because Jesus said the Father never "gave" them what is included in the meaning of "draw" in verse 44. In verse 44 they CANNOT COME TO ME unless the Father draws them, thus giving that ability, and in verse 65 Jesus plainly says the Father never "gave" them the ability to come to him in saving faith and that is why they remained in unbelief - just that simple and clear.

Moreover, the prophets (plural) cited by Christ in John 6:45 prove that drawing is not universal but is restricted to the covenant elect people as he is citing Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 which refer to "thy children" under the new covenant (Jer. 31:33-34; Heb. 8:10-13). Those drawn/taught by God "ALL" without exception come to know God as savior (Jer.31:33-34) "from the least of them to the greatest".

 

[The Biblicist]

↑
You have not answered my question. Are we sinners BEFORE we commit any disobedience on our part. And if so, what constitutes us being viewed as sinners? What law did we break to constitute us as sinners as sin is the violation of the law. - Biblicist

Do we have a nature that "misses the mark"? Yes, absolutely. We are just like Adam prior to the Fall.
Will we be carried away by our own lusts and sin, just like Adam did? Yes, absolutely.

Just like Adam, our sins are manifestations of our nature. -Jon C Post #15


↑
Please explain to us how God could create all things and pronounce them as "good" and yet create Adam a sinner (harmatia) when Solomon says God created man "upright"??

Taking the definition of sin "come short of the glory of God" how can that be a basis for just condemnation as demanded by the context in Romans 3:9-23 and yet God pronounce that to be "good" since you believe Adam was created with a sinful nature or nature that comes short of the glory of God. How can harmatia be condemned and yet God call it "good"???
Adam was good until he wasn't. No need to read more into it than Scripture provides. Adam sinned. - Biblicist

The difference may be how we use "good". Obviously this is not in a moral context as God prounced all of creation "good". I believe here it is in accordance to God's plan and design.

Years ago I had a very good dog. Then he bit me and became a bad dog. The dog did not actually change (it was always a Calvinist....just didn't know it. ). -Jon C - Post #20

Now, I have reposted the issue found in posts#15 and 20 above. Your position is clear. You believe that harmatia was a part of the created nature of man before and after the fall. It is not! I provided evidence it is not. I have challenged you to find one scripture were harmatia is ever viewed by God as "good" and not "evil" - just one! You cannot not, you have not. Your view is simply wrong and unprovable by Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Sorry, but you are simply not dealing with questions direct but ignoring them totally. Anyone can go back through the posts and see clearly that you completely avoided answering the evidence that exposed your harmatia theory was totally false and indefensible.

Now, you have changed your charge from claiming that I restricted "good" to just moral issues (which quotation of my post proved you wrong) to admitting "God's declaration in toto was good" which is an admission your are wrong that harmatia was part of man's nature from the beginning as part of the direct creation by God and proclaimed "very good." There is no excuse for this false claim as harmatia is NEVER justified by God as "good" but is consistently viewed and defined by God as something EVIL. So you are wrong that harmatia was part of man's nature before and after the tree incident. You are wrong that it is a non-moral quality.

You are also wrong that that God did not make man as a moral "upright" being according to his own moral "image" as Ephesians 4:24/Col.3:10 describes that image in moral terms - "righteousness and true holiness."

Being wrong in all of the above proves your wrong about the change of moral nature before versus after the fall of Adam because that one act of disobedience concluded with "death" which is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD which is inherently inseparable from entering a STATE OF SIN or being a sinner by nature. How is that so? Glad you asked (lol). Spiritual separation from God is separation from not merely spiritual life found in God alone, but the LIGHT and LOVE and HOLINESS found in God alone and these four characteristics are precisely what Paul uses to describe the unregenerate nature in Ephesians 4:18-19 as they are inseparable from spiritual separation from God and are inclusive of sin itself. Want proof? thanks for asking (lol). The unregenerate state is characterized by Paul as follows:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. - Eph. 4:18-19

This is what it means to be "without God" or spiritually separated from God:

1. God is LIGHT - no light - "darkened" - DARKNESS
2. God is LIFE - no life - "alienated from the life of God" - DEAD
3. God is LOVE - no love - "blindness (hardness) of their heart...being past feeling" - ENMITY
4. God is Holy - no holiness "given themselves over unto...all uncleaness" DEPRAVITY

This is not only the consequences of spiritual separation but this is THE STATE OF SIN as a moral condition of fallen man.

So, when Paul says "death passed upon all men" that means THE STATE OF SIN as a moral condition passed upon all men as death and this sinful condition are inseparable from each other as proven by Paul in Ephesians 4:18-19 and demonstrated above.

To clarify, I understand you to be saying two things insofar as Adam "pre-Fall" and "post-Fall" (please correct me if I mistake your view):

1. Adam's nature changed from his created nature to a sin nature (which we inherit).

2. Adam died spiritually and this death is a spiritual separation from God.

Do you have any verses that actually state Adam's nature changed (other than his eyes being opened to know good and evil like God...which does mot speak of "nature")?

Do you have any verses that state Adam died spiritually or that Adam was even in possession of "spiritual life" in terms of Christ being Life?

It seems that Adam was removed from the Garden (and a relationship changed). But it also seems God remained very much present with Adam after the Fall. So before we can go forward I think it important to address what you seem to have assumed.

 

[JonC]

↑
You have not answered my question. Are we sinners BEFORE we commit any disobedience on our part. And if so, what constitutes us being viewed as sinners? What law did we break to constitute us as sinners as sin is the violation of the law. - Biblicist

Do we have a nature that "misses the mark"? Yes, absolutely. We are just like Adam prior to the Fall.
Will we be carried away by our own lusts and sin, just like Adam did? Yes, absolutely.

Just like Adam, our sins are manifestations of our nature. -Jon C Post #15


↑
Please explain to us how God could create all things and pronounce them as "good" and yet create Adam a sinner (harmatia) when Solomon says God created man "upright"??

Taking the definition of sin "come short of the glory of God" how can that be a basis for just condemnation as demanded by the context in Romans 3:9-23 and yet God pronounce that to be "good" since you believe Adam was created with a sinful nature or nature that comes short of the glory of God. How can harmatia be condemned and yet God call it "good"???
Adam was good until he wasn't. No need to read more into it than Scripture provides. Adam sinned. - Biblicist

The difference may be how we use "good". Obviously this is not in a moral context as God prounced all of creation "good". I believe here it is in accordance to God's plan and design.

Years ago I had a very good dog. Then he bit me and became a bad dog. The dog did not actually change (it was always a Calvinist....just didn't know it. ). -Jon C - Post #20

Now, I have reposted the issue found in posts#15 and 20 above. Your position is clear. You believe that harmatia was a part of the created nature of man before and after the fall. It is not! I provided evidence it is not. I have challenged you to find one scripture were harmatia is ever viewed by God as "good" and not "evil" - just one! You cannot not, you have not. Your view is simply wrong and unprovable by Scripture.

God created Adam "upright". Adam sinned.

Adam did not become un-upright and then sin but sinned in the same nature he was given.

Provide a verse detailing how Adam changed from "good" to "bad" prior to the transgression. You cant because you are dealing with philosophy and not Scripture. No passage presents Adam 's nature as changing. No passage presents man as having a different nature than Adam possessed.

We are responsible for our own death (another issue!....prove the issue was a spiritual rather than physical death).

The Hebrews treated Adam's transgression as resulting in a physical death, not a spiritual one. You need to justify spiritualizing the passage in Genesis.

Adam sinned and his eyes were opened. Adam was removed from the Garden (he no longer had that access to God). God still conversed with Adam and Adam still worshipped God. But a reconcilation was needed. Adam would die physically and be judged. This judgment is given to Christ. Hades and death will be cast into the Lake of Fire (the second death).