May I ask what is your definition of "death"?
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Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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May I ask what is your definition of "death"?
Gup20
Active Member
The same as yours... separation from God ... and God is life (physical and spiritual).
Next question, can you be "without God" (spiritual separation from God) and not be also without light, love and holiness which have their source in God just as much as life has its source in God?
Gup20
Active Member
Surprisingly, yes.
Gen 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Rom 2:14-15 NASB
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
Deu 30:11-15 NASB
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants
God Himself said that it was the "knowledge of BOTH good and evil." We didn't lose our knowledge of good, and know only evil as your question seems to imply. Paul says those who do not know the law, when they do good, demonstrate these unsaved persons still have God's law written on their hearts (so those who have not heard the gospel are still without excuse). And Deuteronomy 30 (which explicitly refutes Calvinism in whole, BTW) says that the choice of life or death is a choice God sets before man, and that it is not too difficult for man to make the choice, and God does not make the choice for us in heaven.
Well, let me ask the same question in another way. Explain the characteristics of Ephesians 4:18-19 IF fallen man has light, love and holiness or does that text that these things are absent when one is "alienated from the life of God" and thus present when in spiritual union with God?
I have ignored your scripture quotes because I believe you are misapplying them and I don't want to take all the effort correcting them. Again, if your use of these texts is correct then explain why the absence of light, holiness, and love is directly associated with the absence of spiritual life in Ephesians 4:18-19 which characterizes the lost state of those "without God" (Eph. 2:12).
Paul describes the lost condition to be without light ("darkened") without life ("alienated from the life of God") without love ("without feeling") and without holiness "given unto....all uncleanness").
God IS life, God IS love, God IS light and God IS holy and to be without God is to be without life which is inclusive of love, light and holiness. That is the state of death which equally is the state of sin.
So, when "death" is "passed" down so is "sin" as a state or condition that is inseparably from being "without God." To be without Light is to be in a DARKENED state spiritually. To be "without feeling" as a "hardened" heart is to be in a spiritual state of enmity. To be "given unto....all uncleanness" is to be Depraved. That is a sinful state/condition.
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No. I do not know it is ridiculous at all.
You made a strong statement that "good" has to refer to a moral quality and even pointed to the moral law. BUT the exact word is used to refer to amoral things. In fact, your comment would mean that of all the instances where God said it is "good" the only time it indicates a moral characteristic is with man. This is inconsistent at best.
For that reason I believe Creation is "good" based on God's divine purposes.
No, I did not! I said it includes the moral quality of "good" and it does. I never said it was restricted to moral good, if you think I did reproduce my words or stop misrepresenting me.
Do you distinguish between free will and free agency? This question is directed to Gup20.
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Here are my words in Post #44
The new birth is a creative act of God that restores the moral image in which God created Adam and therefore when God said "very good" it most certainly included MORAL GOODNESS as that was part of Adam's created state.
Try again! But next time answer my questions which you have ignored the last eight times.
Perhaps it will be helpful to write the verses out.
Genesis 1:25-27, 31. '.......And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let Us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion........." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created Him; male and female He created them.......Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.'
First of all, if Adam was created with a sinful nature, the image of God must be sinful. Secondly, I do not see how God would not be the author of evil. The word translated 'good' is tob or tobah (Strongs 2896). It appears 559 times in the O.T. The word is used in a variety of ways, but 'morally good' is certainly one of them (e.g. Nahum 1:7), especially when contrasted with raah, 'evil' (e.g. Genesis 2:9, 17; 3:6; Psalms 37:27). But if you believe that the thrice-holy God creates a person in His own image and likeness who has a sinful nature and is immediately in need of a second birth, I really don't know what to say to you.
This is a common-place. Of course God, who sees the end from the beginning, forsaw the Fall and made provision for it in the Lord Jesus Christ. But that is very different to saying that God deliberately made Adam sinful
May I ask you one other thing, to which I do not know the answer. A large part of your argument against the Doctrine of Penal Substitution has been your (entirely incorrect) claim that the doctrine is not found before the Reformation. Do you find in the Church Fathers (excepting perhaps Pelagius) the teaching that Adam was created a sinner? I have not read that, though my knowledge of the Fathers is undoubtedly less than yours.
Gup20
Active Member
These are Gentiles who have chosen to walk in the futility of their own mind rather than setting their mind on the things of God (the good things).
Eph 4:17
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Rom 8:5
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Rom 8:5
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Deu 30:19
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
I believe "free will" is a myth. Free will would be "I choose 'not God' and 'life'." God doesn't give free will as it pertains to Salvation, He gives us a distinct, binary choice; choose life or choose death. It's like giving my child the choice between pancakes or waffles for breakfast... the kid doesn't have free willl... they can't choose steak and eggs... but they can't select from the options I've given them. This is why it says "I call heaven and earth to witness" the choice we make - life or death. God commanded us to "choose life". Jesus said "I am the life."
Rom 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
So, you believe the spiritual condition of the Gentiles is different than Jews? So, spiritual darkness is not a characteristic of unregenerate Jews? So, a hardened heart is not a spiritual condition of an unregenerate Jew, etc., etc.???? Sorry, but I do not believe the spiritual condition of Jews are any different than the spiritual condition of gentiles as both Jews and Gentiles are included in Paul's description of the sinful condition in Romans 3:9-21. So, we are at an impasse as this denial prohibits any further meaningful debate as you deny the very characteristics of the unregenerate condition. You seem to make race and culture determine the character of spiritual condition.
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It seems to me you are confusing free choice with limited options. Just because the options are limited does not deny choice. Do you understand the theological distinction between free will and free agency.
Gup20
Active Member
No, this is not what I believe. I believe those who have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ are the sons of Abraham and considered heirs according to the promise.
Genesis 17:2 (KJV)
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”
Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
Romans 9:6
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Hebrews 2:16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Luke 19:9
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”
Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.
Rom 4:9-13 NASB
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
No, I don't understand what distinction you are making. Please present your idea.
I have answered your question twice (if it is the one you keep asking about Adam's nature). If that is the question then you just don't like my answer. That isn't my responsibility.
If it's a different question then you are out of luck. I just got here (5 hr drive) and the thread seems to have grown while I've been posting hit and miss.
No, that is not the question I have repeatedly asked you. I have asked you about your assertion that harmatia existed prior to the fall as something "good" and part of the natural creation of man. I pointed out repeatedly that the Biblical definition of harmatia is "transgression of the law" (1 Jn. 3:6) and it is NEVER described as "good" but ALWAYS described as evil. I have asked you to address the evidence against your theory that I presented over and over again.
Gup20
Active Member
Can you explain the distinction here... it seems you are both saying that God created a perfect world where man was declared "good." I agree, creation was originally "good" without the presence of evil. Where are you two disagreeing?
I asked you what your definition of "death" is? You answered "spiritual separation" from God. I asked you if spiritual separation from God is one and the same as being "without God". I have asked you if being without God, spiritually separated from God means your separated from the "life of God"? I have asked you if spiritual separation from God includes separation from the LIGHT of God, the LIFE of God, the LOVE of God and the Holiness of God and I cited Ephesians 4:18-19 to prove that is the unregenerate condition of man.
To this, you replied that Ephesians 4:17-19 applied to the Jews as though this is not descriptive of a spiritual condition characteristic of the unregenerate state whether Jew or Gentile. You seemed to deny that as you did not say you agreed it was the charactization of the unregenerate condition of man whether jew or Gentile.
Furthermore, I asserted that to be without LIGHT is to be in DARKNESS, to be without life is to be spiritually DEAD, to be without love is to without "feeling" or hardened and thus in a condition of enmity, and to be without holiness is to be "given over unto...all uncleaness" and that condition is DEPRAVITY and all combined is the STATE OF SIN making it inseparable from the state of death. If death is passed down then so is the state of sin as these are the same characteristics of the state of death and the unregenerated state.
If it helps you to write the verses out then it is OK with me, but I still believe we should do so sparingly in Christian debate.
As you can probably tell, I agree that all Creation was exceedingly good.
But I am also one to believe God created the tiger with teeth and claws to kill rather than the animal only came about post-Fall. And I believe it was very good.
You see, I believe the Fall itself ordained by God because I believe Creation itself was created for and through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. So I do not belueve in a "pre-Fall nature" versus a "post-Fall nature". And I'm pretty firm about it.
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