Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

[The Biblicist]

I cannot discern a question. maybe use Bold fronts

Sin did not begin with Adam.

Paul says it did begin with Adam as far as the the human race and this world is concerned:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Rom. 5:12

How did sin enter the world? ANSWER: "by one man SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD"

Your fail to read all Paul was saying,.. by one sin affects all who sin and also by one Salvation can affect all as well.

Where does Paul use the term "affect" in Romans 5:12-19 or even a term that means "affect"???
Paul uses the word "made" to describe Adams impact of one act of disobedience "MADE many sinners" not merely affected.

We participate in the system of sin that Adam started, but we are not without choices to participate. but we were condemned (sinners) already

We do not "participate in the system of sin" because sin is not a "system" but a spiritual state which produces sinful attitudes and actions. It is not a matter of choice as you were born with a sinful nature and the proof is that even infants die in the womb and there is no death where there is no sin and there is no sin where there is no transgression of the law because sin is the transgression of the law. Hence, as I have asked jon now many times, with no response, I ask you what law did infants transgress that they can be condemned to death, thus subjected death even from the womb?????

Eze 18:19

Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This is one of the most abused text in scripture and you totally abuse it. This has nothing to do with Adam in a prefallen state or testing Adam as man's representative in the garden. This has to do with mankind already fallen and is talking about accountabiity for their own personal sins.

In direct contrast the children of Adam did bear the consequences of his sin as Paul explicitly and repeatedly states over and over again in Romans 5:15-19 and I quote:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Singular disobedience by Adam "MADE" many sinners
Singular disobedience by Adam "Judgement came upon all men to condemnation"
Singular disobedience by Adam "many be dead"

Your view says the very opposite and demands the very opposite as your misuse of Ezekiel proves.

 

[The Biblicist]

What it says is that Creation was as God willed (decreed....acording to Gos design.....His plan).

I believe even here God purposed a Savior. I believe Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So I believe this "rebirth" in Christ and our redemption original to God's purposes.

I do not believe "good" in the Genesis account of creation to mean "moral".

It is these kind of responses that irritate me as you never address the questions directly but instead either redirect to another issue or ask another question.

Solomon says that God created man "upright" and that is a moral condition rather than a physical posture that make him different from animals that go on all fours.

The bible explicitly and plainly defines harmatia as transgession of God's law and nowhere does the Bible ever treat or call or define harmatia as good but always as evil and yet you claim harmatia existed as a direct product of God's creation of man and God can say harmatia is "very good." that is clearly false and completely nonsensical without even a shred of Biblical support and that is precisely why you have refused to directly answer this objection although I have repeated it over and over again.

 

[JonShaff]

I do not believe "good" in the Genesis account of creation to mean "moral".

Yes, Excellent! I hesitated to reply to this thread, but "Morals" and being "Moral" is a construct of Man. The Word of God never speaks to "morality", but rather, It speaks to Righteous or Unrighteous. God is not "Moral", He is Righteous and Just. Atheists can be "morally" acceptable. Some may say this is a matter of semantics. I say it's not.

 

[The Biblicist]

What it says is that Creation was as God willed (decreed....acording to Gos design.....His plan).

It most certainly does not say that at all. What it actually says is "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." - Gen. 1:31 and part of that was verse 28 wherein God made man LIKE US! What likeness to God have with harmatia? Verse 26 says God made man in his "own image" and new birth is restoration of that "image" and it is a MORAL image:

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. - Eph. 4:24

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: - Col. 3:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Eph.2:10

The new birth is a creative act of God that restores the moral image in which God created Adam and therefore when God said "very good" it most certainly included MORAL GOODNESS as that was part of Adam's created state. That moral image was lost in the fall and only restored by new creation new birth and that is when man can do "GOOD works" before God and not a microsecond before that as a corrupt tree can only bring forth corrupt fruit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, Excellent! I hesitated to reply to this thread, but "Morals" and being "Moral" is a construct of Man. The Word of God never speaks to "morality", but rather, It speaks to Righteous or Unrighteous. God is not "Moral", He is Righteous and Just. Atheists can be "morally" acceptable. Some may say this is a matter of semantics. I say it's not.

Wrong! Read my previous post as moral goodness was an explicit part of God's creation in man as that it was one essential aspect that made man "LIKE US" and in "OUR IMAGE" and the proof is that it is that moral image lost in the fall that is restored by the act of new birth (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Col. 3:10).

 

[JonShaff]

MORAL image:

that restores the moral image

Wrong! Read my previous post as moral goodness was an explicit part of God's creation in man as that it was one essential aspect that made man "LIKE US" and in "OUR IMAGE" and the proof is that it is that moral image lost in the fall that is restored by the act of new birth (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Col. 3:10).

Greetings! Thank you for your writings. Please help me to understand what you mean by "Moral" and "Moral Image" thank you!

 

[The Biblicist]

This thread has fully served its purpose and I am confident that objective readers will be able to easily discern between truth and error. I have repeatedly asked the same question over and over and over again and not one advocate of jon's position or jon himself has attempted to directly confront the evidence I placed before them and address it - not one person. The reason is self-evident - that position cannot answer these objections because that position is false.

 

[JonShaff]

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. - Eph. 4:24

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: - Col. 3:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Eph.2:10

The new birth is a creative act of God that restores the moral image in which God created Adam and therefore when God said "very good" it most certainly included MORAL GOODNESS as that was part of Adam's created state. That moral image was lost in the fall and only restored by new creation new birth and that is when man can do "GOOD works" before God and not a microsecond before that as a corrupt tree can only bring forth corrupt fruit.

I would agree with much of what you write, however, what i do not agree with is that the "new birth" is a restoration, but rather, a NEW CREATION.

The verses you quote says it explicitly.
Created in Christ Jesus....Adam was not created in Christ Jesus.
Put on the New Man--which is in Christ not Adam or pre-Adam

 

[JonC]

It most certainly does not say that at all. What it actually says is "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." - Gen. 1:31 and part of that was verse 28 wherein God made man LIKE US! What likeness to God have with harmatia? Verse 26 says God made man in his "own image" and new birth is restoration of that "image" and it is a MORAL image:

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. - Eph. 4:24

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: - Col. 3:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Eph.2:10

The new birth is a creative act of God that restores the moral image in which God created Adam and therefore when God said "very good" it most certainly included MORAL GOODNESS as that was part of Adam's created state. That moral image was lost in the fall and only restored by new creation new birth and that is when man can do "GOOD works" before God and not a microsecond before that as a corrupt tree can only bring forth corrupt fruit.

You have two choices. Either the sun, moon, plants, animals, etc. were "morally" good (and now, as affected by the Fall are immoral) or you switch meanings in Genesis 1 to suit your interoretation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings! Thank you for your writings. Please help me to understand what you mean by "Moral" and "Moral Image" thank you!

Certainly and thank you for asking. Moral in Biblical theology has to do with a standard of right and wrong. In Biblical theology the Law of God provides that standard in written form and Jesus Christ provides that standard in living form (attitudes, words and practice).

Solomon cleary says that God made man "upright" which has reference to a moral state of being that is right with God (not his physical posture).

Moses clearly states that God made man "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE" and God is spirit and has no physical image. Angels are intelligent reasoning beings but nowhere does the Bible say they were made "IN OUR IMAGE". "IN OUR IMAGE" may involve several things (trichotomy, created as rulers) but one thing it undoubted includes is a MORAL IMAGE of righteousness as the new birth is the act of creation by God that restores GOD'S IMAGE in man that is described as "righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) which must be in place prior to man being enabled to do "good works" in God's sight (Eph. 2:10). Without new birth there is "none good, no, not one" there is "none righteous, no, not one" in God's sight because the moral nature of the tree (heart) cannot produce anything contrary to that nature and so if the tree is corrupt so are its fruits (Mt. 12:32-35). Jesus said how coud they "BEING EVIL" produce good things out of their heart? They cannot. that is why "new birth" is a "MUST."

Secondly, fallen man is spiritually separated from God and God IS life, and God IS love and God IS light and God IS holy and so a spiritually separated man who is "without God" is without spiritual life, without light, without love without holiness. New birth is bringing them into spiritual union with God or being "created in Christ Jesus" and it is at that point of creation in Christ that man is brought into life, light, love and holiness.


Look at the description in Ephesians 4:18-19 of those "without God" and you can see that "darkness" and "alienated from the life of God" and "being past feeling" and "given over unto...all uncleaness" characterizes their condition that ony newbirth can reverse (Eph. 4:24 with Col. 3:10).

 

[JonC]

I would agree with much of what you write, however, what i do not agree with is that the "new birth" is a restoration, but rather, a NEW CREATION.

The verses you quote says it explicitly.
Created in Christ Jesus....Adam was not created in Christ Jesus.
Put on the New Man--which is in Christ not Adam or pre-Adam

Exactly!!

 

[The Biblicist]

I would agree with much of what you write, however, what i do not agree with is that the "new birth" is a restoration, but rather, a NEW CREATION.

The verses you quote says it explicitly.
Created in Christ Jesus....Adam was not created in Christ Jesus.
Put on the New Man--which is in Christ not Adam or pre-Adam

Ask yourself what is it that is being created in man by new birth? Anwer "the image of God"! Ask yourself what kind of image? Answer "in righteousness and true holiness". Adam was created "LIKE US" and "IN OUR OWN IMAGE" and thus "UPRIGHT" Ecclo. 12:7 and that is what he lost in the fall and that is what is restored by new creation. Man had it in his unfallen state by old creation and FELL FROM IT due to sin and now it is restored by new creation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Exactly!!

Exactly false! Read my response. Why won't you respond to the questions and the evidence I have placed before you at least 8 times now??????

 

[The Biblicist]

You have two choices. Either the sun, moon, plants, animals, etc. were "morally" good (and now, as affected by the Fall are immoral) or you switch meanings in Genesis 1 to suit your interoretation.

You know that is totally ridiculous and a false dilemma as the sun, moon, plants and animals were not "LIKE US" or made in "OUR OWN IMAGE" or made "UPRIGHT." Answer my questions instead of deflecting.

 

[JonShaff]

Ask yourself what is it that is being created in man by new birth? Anwer "the image of God"! Ask yourself what kind of image? Answer "in righteousness and true holiness". Adam was created "LIKE US" and "IN OUR OWN IMAGE" and thus "UPRIGHT" Ecclo. 12:7 and that is what he lost in the fall and that is what is restored by new creation. Man had it in his unfallen state by old creation and FELL FROM IT due to sin and now it is restored by new creation.

Adam was partially made in the Image of God...He was a Triune Nature--Spirit, Body, Soul. He was Given Authority to be God's representative. Had Adam borne the Full Image of God, he never would have Sinned. Adam wasn't a "Moral" Creature, he did not know right from wrong yet--not until he ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and then his eyes were opened. Morality is a construct of man, brother.

The new Creation is made in, and will be made, in the FULL Image of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Adam was partially made in the Image of God...He was a Triune Nature--Spirit, Body, Soul. He was Given Authority to be God's representative. Had Adam borne the Full Image of God, he never would have Sinned. Adam wasn't a "Moral" Creature, he did not know right from wrong yet--not until he ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and then his eyes were opened. Morality is a construct of man, brother.

You are ignoring the evidence . The evidence you are ignoring is that Solomon explicity states God made man "UPRIGHT" and thus part of the "LIKE US" and "IN OUR OWN IMAGE" equation. You are ignoring the evidence that Paul explicit describes the "IMAGE OF HIM" that made us in MORAL TERMS - "righteousness and true holiness."

The "box" you have placed yourselve in is that your forced to define the "our image" is inferior to the same "image" Paul demands is moral in character and thus God created a moraless man the first time and corrected his mistake the second time.

 

[JonShaff]

You are ignoring the evidence . The evidence you are ignoring is that Solomon explicity states God made man "UPRIGHT" and thus part of the "LIKE US" and "IN OUR OWN IMAGE" equation. You are ignoring the evidence that Paul explicit describes the "IMAGE OF HIM" that made us in MORAL TERMS - "righteousness and true holiness."

The "box" you have placed yourselve in is that your forced to define the "our image" is inferior to the same "image" Paul demands is moral in character and thus God created a moraless man the first time and corrected his mistake the second time.

While, it seems apparent you are not grasping the principles i'm laying down, you have made one obvious error in what you assert. You equate us bearing the image of Christ to Us bearing the Image of Adam at Creation. That is a huge error. And it's simple to understand:

One day, we will live in sinless perfection because we will bear the full image of Christ.

Obviously, whatever degree of God's Image Adam bore did not bring to him that reality, thus equating the Image of Christ with a Pre-adamic Image is GRAVE ERROR.

 

[The Biblicist]

Had Adam borne the Full Image of God, he never would have Sinned.

Nobody believes Adam was created in immutable righteousness and holiness but mutable righteous and holiness. Your argument fails.

 

[loDebar]

We are born affected in this sin state due to Adam and the fall!

The physical world are affected by he fall because Adam was physical and spiritual. He was the first physical but not the first spiritual being to sin

 

[JonShaff]

Nobody believes Adam was created in immutable righteousness and holiness but mutable righteous and holiness. Your argument fails.

Therefore, God isn't restoring Us to a "Pre-adamic" image...but into the Image of Christ, the New Creation.