Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

[The Biblicist]

Can you explain the distinction here... it seems you are both saying that God created a perfect world where man was declared "good." I agree, creation was originally "good" without the presence of evil. Where are you two disagreeing?

he says that "harmatia" translated "sin" was the natural state of Adam at the time God created him and is the normal nature of man and it have no evil connotations. I deny that, and I deny anyone to find the use of that term where it is described as "good". It is defined as "transgression of the law" (1 Jn. 3:6) and that is why it is coming short of the glory of God because the law defines righteousness or holiness which is the glory of God. He reduces the phrase "glory of God" to simply mean man is not absolutely perfect in all respects and neither are we and so harmatia is the normal condition of man before and after the fall. Meaning, we are in the same condition as Adam before the fall as harmatia exists before and after Adam's disobedience that Paul refers to in Romans 5:15-19.

 

[The Biblicist]

Can you explain the distinction here... it seems you are both saying that God created a perfect world where man was declared "good." I agree, creation was originally "good" without the presence of evil. Where are you two disagreeing?

His own words sums up why he defends that position -

So I do not belueve in a "pre-Fall nature" versus a "post-Fall nature". And I'm pretty firm about it. - Jon C

 

[Gup20]

I asked you what your definition of "death" is? You answered "spiritual separation" from God. I asked you if spiritual separation from God is one and the same as being "without God". I have asked you if being without God, spiritually separated from God means your separated from the "life of God"? I have asked you if spiritual separation from God includes separation from the LIGHT of God, the LIFE of God, the LOVE of God and the Holiness of God and I cited Ephesians 4:18-19 to prove that is the unregenerate condition of man.

To this, you replied that Ephesians 4:17-19 applied to the Jews as though this is not descriptive of a spiritual condition characteristic of the unregenerate state whether Jew or Gentile. You seemed to deny that as you did not say you agreed it was the charactization of the unregenerate condition of man whether jew or Gentile.

Furthermore, I asserted that to be without LIGHT is to be in DARKNESS, to be without life is to be spiritually DEAD, to be without love is to without "feeling" or hardened and thus in a condition of enmity, and to be without holiness is to be "given over unto...all uncleaness" and that condition is DEPRAVITY and all combined is the STATE OF SIN making it inseparable from the state of death. If death is passed down then so is the state of sin as these are the same characteristics of the state of death and the unregenerated state.

I'm saying that the distinction between Jew and Gentile is a spiritual one, not a physical one. Abraham is the "father of many nations" not the father of one nation. Faith CAUSES the adoption of the believers as a descendant of Abraham... faith DOES NOT cause regeneration. God's promise that the descendants of Abraham would inherit Christ's righteousness causes regeneration.. faith merely qualifies one as a descendant of Abraham. Faith qualifies a person for human adoption. This is why the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate never ends... both sides are wrong about the DIRECT vs INDIRECT nature of salvation.

Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

It is the spiritual descendants of Abraham who are counted as heirs (those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had).

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm saying that the distinction between Jew and Gentile is a spiritual one, not a physical one. Abraham is the "father of many nations" not the father of one nation. Faith CAUSES the adoption of the believers as a descendant of Abraham... faith DOES NOT cause regeneration. God's promise that the descendants of Abraham would inherit Christ's righteousness causes regeneration.. faith merely qualifies one as a descendant of Abraham. Faith qualifies a person for human adoption. This is why the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate never ends... both sides are wrong about the DIRECT vs INDIRECT nature of salvation.

Isaiah 54:1
“Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

It is the spiritual descendants of Abraham who are counted as heirs (those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had).

So, let me give you the opportunity to admit or deny that the characteristics spelled out in Ephesians 4:18-19 are none-racial but the characteristics of the unregenerate state regardless of jew or gentile?

 

[Gup20]

His own words sums up why he defends that position -

So I do not belueve in a "pre-Fall nature" versus a "post-Fall nature". And I'm pretty firm about it. - Jon C

I agree that the post-fall nature of man (which includes man's fear of death) is distinct from the pre-fall nature which had no knowledge of evil and no fear of death.

 

[JonC]

No, that is not the question I have repeatedly asked you. I have asked you about your assertion that harmatia existed prior to the fall as something "good" and part of the natural creation of man. I pointed out repeatedly that the Biblical definition of harmatia is "transgression of the law" (1 Jn. 3:6) and it is NEVER described as "good" but ALWAYS described as evil. I have asked you to address the evidence against your theory that I presented over and over again.

That is what I answered twice. Adam was sinless before he sinned because he had not sinned yet. You (philosophically) assume Adam's nature changed but cannot provede a passage showing this change. What you are doing is arguing fallacy ...."Adam had a sinless nature before he sinned, then afterwards a sin nature because he sinned....therefore his nature changed" type of reasoning.

The tiger (which I believe was created with the tools to survive) was good. Creation was good.

 

[Gup20]

So, let me give you the opportunity to admit or deny that the characteristics spelled out in Ephesians 4:18-19 are none-racial but the characteristics of the unregenerate state regardless of jew or gentile?

I admit that the condition talked about in Ephesians 4:18 is an unregenerate condition. However, I also admit that this does't preclude them from making the choice to choose God, choose good, and choose life. It simply indicates that they have chosen death - they are making the choice to reject God, reject life, and reject good.

 

[Gup20]

That is what I answered twice. Adam was sinless before he sinned because he had not sinned yet. You (philosophically) assume Adam's nature changed but cannot provede a passage showing this change. What you are doing is arguing fallacy ...."Adam had a sinless nature before he sinned, then afterwards a sin nature because he sinned....therefore his nature changed" type of reasoning.

The tiger (which I believe was created with the tools to survive) was good. Creation was good.

Do you assume God created creatures that couldn't adapt to man's choice for good or evil? That would have been shortsighted on God's part. Clearly, creation changed after the fall. For example thorns and thistles grew. This indicates God made creation with the ability to adapt to man's choice and that after the fall, certainly a change to nature occurred.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is what I answered twice. Adam was sinless before he sinned because he had not sinned yet. You (philosophically) assume Adam's nature changed but cannot provede a passage showing this change. What you are doing is arguing fallacy ...."Adam had a sinless nature before he sinned, then afterwards a sin nature because he sinned....therefore his nature changed" type of reasoning.

The tiger (which I believe was created with the tools to survive) was good. Creation was good.

No, you did not answer it twice or at all (if you did, then please give the post or repost it because I never saw it). The question was centered on your assertion that harmatia was the created norm of man before he sinned as well as after he sinned and that is the same condition of man now. I challenged you to find any scripture or any definition scripture of harmatia that describes it or treats it as "good" in any fashion whatsoever. No answers!

 

[The Biblicist]

I admit that the condition talked about in Ephesians 4:18 is an unregenerate condition.

Great! Now we can proceed.

However, I also admit that this does't preclude them from making the choice to choose God, choose good, and choose life. It simply indicates that they have chosen death - they are making the choice to reject God, reject life, and reject good.

Now, you havent answered my next question. Do you know the theological difference between free will versus free agency?

 

[loDebar]

God declares all of us guilty in the fall of Adam, save for Christ, as Paul stated, the first Adam is over all lost, while Second Adam over all redeemed. Either in Adam or in Christ now!

who?
Jesus said,
John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed alljudgment unto the Son:

and
Jhn 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Who declares us guilty after Adam's fall?

 

[JonC]

Do you assume God created creatures that couldn't adapt to man's choice for good or evil? That would have been shortsighted on God's part. Clearly, creation changed after the fall. For example thorns and thistles grew. This indicates God made creation with the ability to adapt to man's choice and that after the fall, certainly a change to nature occurred.

No. I actually believe this is all according to God's plan. As Piper says - the best of all circumstances. I trust God. It is good.

 

[JonC]

No, you did not answer it twice or at all (if you did, then please give the post or repost it because I never saw it). The question was centered on your assertion that harmatia was the created norm of man before he sinned as well as after he sinned and that is the same condition of man now. I challenged you to find any scripture or any definition scripture of harmatia that describes it or treats it as "good" in any fashion whatsoever. No answers!

It was three times. Five if you count responses to other people.

 

[The Biblicist]

who?
Jesus said,
John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed alljudgment unto the Son:

and
Jhn 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Who declares us guilty after Adam's fall?

You are jerking texts out of context. John 5:22 refers to the future judgement at His coming, while Jn. 8:15 refers to his incarnation period because he did not have to judge anyone because "they are condemned already" (Jn. 3:17).

Death is condemnation and judgement and all post-fallen men are under the reign of death (Rom. 5:12-19).

 

[The Biblicist]

It was three times. Five if you count responses to other people.

For instance cite or quote one post?

 

[Gup20]

That is what I answered twice. Adam was sinless before he sinned because he had not sinned yet. You (philosophically) assume Adam's nature changed but cannot provede a passage showing this change. What you are doing is arguing fallacy ...."Adam had a sinless nature before he sinned, then afterwards a sin nature because he sinned....therefore his nature changed" type of reasoning.

The tiger (which I believe was created with the tools to survive) was good. Creation was good.

Heb 2:14-16 NASB
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Rom 8:20-22 NASB
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

We do see a Biblical basis that the sin nature was a result of the fall... but more specifically a result of the judgement of DEATH.

 

[Gup20]

Now, you havent answered my next question. Do you know the theological difference between free will versus free agency?

I would be happy to once you define what you mean by this.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If it helps you to write the verses out then it is OK with me, but I still believe we should do so sparingly in Christian debate.

I think it is helpful to those who read the threads. I know what the texts say before I write them out, otherwise I couldn't write them, could I?.

As you can probably tell, I agree that all Creation was exceedingly good.

No, I can't tell that at all.

But I am also one to believe God created the tiger with teeth and claws to kill rather than the animal only came about post-Fall. And I believe it was very good.

How strange, considering that the original creation had no thorns or thistles (Genesis 3:18). Death came only after the fall (Romans 5:12 etc.), and in the NH&NE, the lion (and presumably the tiger) will eat straw like the ox (Isaiah 65:25), which is presumably a 'good' thing..

You see, I believe the Fall itself ordained by God because I believe Creation itself was created for and through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. So I do not believe in a "pre-Fall nature" versus a "post-Fall nature". And I'm pretty firm about it.

I do not see that being 'pretty firm' about a rather gross error is anything to boast about.

 

[Gup20]

No. I actually believe this is all according to God's plan. As Piper says - the best of all circumstances. I trust God. It is good.

I agree.

The sequence is God creates a "very good" creation without sin or death. Man chooses to sin thereby bringing the curse of death into the world. All of creation is subject to Adam's corporate judgement and anxiously awaits redemption or repeal of that corporate judgement. At the resurrection, Adam's corporate judgement will be repealed thereby resurrecting ALL men. Those with faith will have life and those without faith will die a second death as God replaces the corporate judgement of Adam with individual judgements.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would be happy to once you define what you mean by this.

Free Agency means you have internal restraints upon your power of choice. For example, Jesus said "no man CAN come to me EXCEPT" - Jn. 6:44 which says there are internal restaints that prevent natural man from choosing to come to Christ without divine intervention.

Free Will means you have no internal restraints preventing your choice. Such was the case with Adam before the fall.

However, after the fall and due to the fall internal restraints existed upon the will of man so that he does not choose contrary to his nature.