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Romans 5:12-19 and the source of sin and death in humanity

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    he says that "harmatia" translated "sin" was the natural state of Adam at the time God created him and is the normal nature of man and it have no evil connotations. I deny that, and I deny anyone to find the use of that term where it is described as "good". It is defined as "transgression of the law" (1 Jn. 3:6) and that is why it is coming short of the glory of God because the law defines righteousness or holiness which is the glory of God. He reduces the phrase "glory of God" to simply mean man is not absolutely perfect in all respects and neither are we and so harmatia is the normal condition of man before and after the fall. Meaning, we are in the same condition as Adam before the fall as harmatia exists before and after Adam's disobedience that Paul refers to in Romans 5:15-19.
     
    #101 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    His own words sums up why he defends that position -

    So I do not belueve in a "pre-Fall nature" versus a "post-Fall nature". And I'm pretty firm about it. - Jon C
     
    #102 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  3. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I'm saying that the distinction between Jew and Gentile is a spiritual one, not a physical one. Abraham is the "father of many nations" not the father of one nation. Faith CAUSES the adoption of the believers as a descendant of Abraham... faith DOES NOT cause regeneration. God's promise that the descendants of Abraham would inherit Christ's righteousness causes regeneration.. faith merely qualifies one as a descendant of Abraham. Faith qualifies a person for human adoption. This is why the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate never ends... both sides are wrong about the DIRECT vs INDIRECT nature of salvation.

    Isaiah 54:1
    “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

    It is the spiritual descendants of Abraham who are counted as heirs (those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had).
     
    #103 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So, let me give you the opportunity to admit or deny that the characteristics spelled out in Ephesians 4:18-19 are none-racial but the characteristics of the unregenerate state regardless of jew or gentile?
     
    #104 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  5. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I agree that the post-fall nature of man (which includes man's fear of death) is distinct from the pre-fall nature which had no knowledge of evil and no fear of death.
     
    #105 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is what I answered twice. Adam was sinless before he sinned because he had not sinned yet. You (philosophically) assume Adam's nature changed but cannot provede a passage showing this change. What you are doing is arguing fallacy ...."Adam had a sinless nature before he sinned, then afterwards a sin nature because he sinned....therefore his nature changed" type of reasoning.

    The tiger (which I believe was created with the tools to survive) was good. Creation was good.
     
    #106 JonC, Jan 18, 2019
  7. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I admit that the condition talked about in Ephesians 4:18 is an unregenerate condition. However, I also admit that this does't preclude them from making the choice to choose God, choose good, and choose life. It simply indicates that they have chosen death - they are making the choice to reject God, reject life, and reject good.
     
    #107 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
  8. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Do you assume God created creatures that couldn't adapt to man's choice for good or evil? That would have been shortsighted on God's part. Clearly, creation changed after the fall. For example thorns and thistles grew. This indicates God made creation with the ability to adapt to man's choice and that after the fall, certainly a change to nature occurred.
     
    #108 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, you did not answer it twice or at all (if you did, then please give the post or repost it because I never saw it). The question was centered on your assertion that harmatia was the created norm of man before he sinned as well as after he sinned and that is the same condition of man now. I challenged you to find any scripture or any definition scripture of harmatia that describes it or treats it as "good" in any fashion whatsoever. No answers!
     
    #109 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Great! Now we can proceed.

    Now, you havent answered my next question. Do you know the theological difference between free will versus free agency?
     
    #110 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    who?
    Jesus said,
    John 5:22

    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed alljudgment unto the Son:

    and
    Jhn 8:15

    Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

    Who declares us guilty after Adam's fall?
     
    #111 loDebar, Jan 18, 2019
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I actually believe this is all according to God's plan. As Piper says - the best of all circumstances. I trust God. It is good.
     
    #112 JonC, Jan 18, 2019
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It was three times. Five if you count responses to other people.
     
    #113 JonC, Jan 18, 2019
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  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are jerking texts out of context. John 5:22 refers to the future judgement at His coming, while Jn. 8:15 refers to his incarnation period because he did not have to judge anyone because "they are condemned already" (Jn. 3:17).

    Death is condemnation and judgement and all post-fallen men are under the reign of death (Rom. 5:12-19).
     
    #114 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    For instance cite or quote one post?
     
    #115 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
  16. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Heb 2:14-16 NASB
    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

    Rom 8:20-22 NASB
    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

    We do see a Biblical basis that the sin nature was a result of the fall... but more specifically a result of the judgement of DEATH.
     
    #116 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
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  17. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I would be happy to once you define what you mean by this.
     
    #117 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think it is helpful to those who read the threads. I know what the texts say before I write them out, otherwise I couldn't write them, could I?.
    No, I can't tell that at all.
    How strange, considering that the original creation had no thorns or thistles (Genesis 3:18). Death came only after the fall (Romans 5:12 etc.), and in the NH&NE, the lion (and presumably the tiger) will eat straw like the ox (Isaiah 65:25), which is presumably a 'good' thing..
    I do not see that being 'pretty firm' about a rather gross error is anything to boast about.
     
    #118 Martin Marprelate, Jan 18, 2019
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  19. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I agree.

    The sequence is God creates a "very good" creation without sin or death. Man chooses to sin thereby bringing the curse of death into the world. All of creation is subject to Adam's corporate judgement and anxiously awaits redemption or repeal of that corporate judgement. At the resurrection, Adam's corporate judgement will be repealed thereby resurrecting ALL men. Those with faith will have life and those without faith will die a second death as God replaces the corporate judgement of Adam with individual judgements.
     
    #119 Gup20, Jan 18, 2019
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Free Agency means you have internal restraints upon your power of choice. For example, Jesus said "no man CAN come to me EXCEPT" - Jn. 6:44 which says there are internal restaints that prevent natural man from choosing to come to Christ without divine intervention.

    Free Will means you have no internal restraints preventing your choice. Such was the case with Adam before the fall.

    However, after the fall and due to the fall internal restraints existed upon the will of man so that he does not choose contrary to his nature.
     
    #120 The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2019
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