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Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?
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He is correct Hank D:thumbs::applause::thumbs:
Except that Paul himself spone on water baptism in that passage as being a symbol/type, of what already happened to us before we got dunked!
If you believe in the Confession, and the Confession's view of the depravity of man, then of a necessity you must believe that each believer has an old nature. That is what points 4 and 5 are describing here. They are not describing unbelievers, but the life of the believer.
"The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin."
You still have that corrupt nature, that old nature, that old man. It lives side by side with that new nature. That is the struggle that Paul describes in Romans chapter seven, and that is the reference that your Confession gives here.
The refoemed Confessions indeed teach that we still have a sin nature to struggle against, but even if they did not state that, shouldn't we base the truth upon the scriptures themselves?
To say that water baptism is not in Romans 6 is both unorthodox and blind.
To say that water baptism is not in Romans 6 is both unorthodox and blind.
Water Baptism is what is being referred to, but it is NOT with the meaning of those using that to justify regeneration is in it though...
Water Baptism is what is being referred to, but it is NOT with the meaning of those using that to justify regeneration is in it though...
The context of that passage is sin. Paul was simply saying when we are Baptised (by immersion in water) we are saying that we identify with Christ. We identify with Christ in that the old man (for Christ the non-glorified body) (with us the old sinnful body) is now buried and we have been raised to walk in newness of life. In other words Paul is saying we should not continue to sin since we are now saved and have claimed to identify with Christ.
By the way Romans 6 and Baptism itself is nothing but LS doctrine.
Nowhere, I repeat nowhere, does the Scripture teach that the old nature has been eradicated. This is a holiness doctrine taught by Finney, and is completely foreign to orthodox Christian beliefs as stated in the Confession, and in almost every systematic theology book you can get your hands on.The refoemed Confessions indeed teach that we still have a sin nature to struggle against, but even if they did not state that, shouldn't we base the truth upon the scriptures themselves?
Except that Paul himself spone on water baptism in that passage as being a symbol/type, of what already happened to us before we got dunked!
Except can you show where and how he did that at all?
We are saying it is not there...show how it is there....back up your statement.
How does water baptism crucify the old man...explain rom6:6
DHK
The statement being discussed is the OLD MAN......
you are trying to be slick by substituting the old nature...trying to blur the lines...
Romans 6:6 says the old man was crucified ,,,in a past completed action...
Your blurring this does not change that fact.
your trying to drag Finney in as if Calvinists are going to follow Finney is
foolish and as they say...a red herring.
Nowhere, I repeat nowhere, does the Scripture teach that the old nature has been eradicated.
The statement being discussed is the OLD MAN......
you are trying to be slick by substituting the old nature...trying to blur the lines...
Romans 6:6 says the old man was crucified ,,,in a past completed action...
Your blurring this does not change that fact.
your trying to drag Finney in as if Calvinists are going to follow Finney is
foolish and as they say...a red herring.
Yeshua1
Sure...what scriptures though.....make a small list of them...OR...use the SCRIPTURES offered in the Confession
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )
Maybe you had a few other verses in mind...go ahead and offer them at this time...KYRED and I will wait for them:thumbsup:
?The refoemed Confessions indeed teach that we still have a sin nature to struggle against, but even if they did not state that, shouldn't we base the truth upon the scriptures themselves
Sure...what scriptures though.....make a small list of them...OR...use the SCRIPTURES offered in the Confession
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )
Maybe you had a few other verses in mind...go ahead and offer them at this time...KYRED and I will wait for them:thumbsup:
To say that water baptism is not in Romans 6 is both unorthodox and blind.
The action described in Romans 6 is accomplished by Spirit baptism alone, or you are speaking of baptismal regeneration...which we do not believe..
By application...water baptism does confess outwardly what we profess has taken place inwardly by the Spirit, that is our saving UNION with Christ and our Identification with him as you mentioned.:thumbs:
remember in the OP...it asked...primarily?
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The action described in Romans 6 is accomplished by Spirit baptism alone, or you are speaking of baptismal regeneration...which we do not believe..
You set up a false dichotomy here.
I use the "old man" and the "old nature" interchangeably. Don't let that confuse you. There is no blurring of the lines. You have an old nature/old man/fleshly nature/carnal nature--all of which Paul described in Romans 7:14-25. Your denial thereof is a denial of the Depravity of man and an acceptance of Finneyism (if I can designate that way). If you want a more formal name it is "Oberlin Theology."DHK
The statement being discussed is the OLD MAN......
you are trying to be slick by substituting the old nature...trying to blur the lines...
Romans 6:6 says the old man was crucified ,,,in a past completed action...
Your blurring this does not change that fact.
your trying to drag Finney in as if Calvinists are going to follow Finney is
foolish and as they say...a red herring.
Remember Winman. This is what he believed. But even he would not go so far as to say that the old man is completely eradicated. It isn't. If it was you would be perfect and sinless as Christ is. You aren't. You have an old nature. Live with it.
You set up a false dichotomy here.
that is not what I'm trying to do what I'm trying to do was say this without the work of the Spirit nothing described in Romans 6 actually happens to an actual person
that is not what I'm trying to do what I'm trying to do was say this without the work of the Spirit nothing described in Romans 6 actually happens to an actual person
Ok no one is arguing that. The context of the passage is not that however. The context is that Paul is making a comparison to water baptism showing why we should no longer practice sin. That is the orthodox view and it is a basic tenant of the average Baptist church.
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DHK ironically Oberlin theology is the basis of most of what you believeI will attempt to show you this later
Apparently you don't know what I believe;DHK ironically Oberlin theology is the basis of most of what you believeI will attempt to show you this later
And it seems you are so confused you don't know what you believe!
If there is no old nature, Icon, is it the new nature (the Holy Spirit) that sins? If not, what is it?
Apparently you don't know what I believe;
And it seems you are so confused you don't know what you believe!
If there is no old nature, Icon, is it the new nature (the Holy Spirit) that sins? If not, what is it?
Paul staed that he still had to deal with the sin orinciple, and that part of him after salvation still wanted to fight against obeying God!
Guess paul did not have enough insight and understanding to be a super saint!
that is not what I'm trying to do what I'm trying to do was say this without the work of the Spirit nothing described in Romans 6 actually happens to an actual person
The passage is talking about water baptism though.....
Revmitchell
Hello RM
All Christians must agree on the work of the Spirit...and now the context.
I agree Paul is showing why we should no longer practice sin....but I have it happening another way.
it is a view that is held...but not the only view...I will not dispute that in many average Baptist churches it is "the view'
So RM...back to the context...having explained about how believers are justified by God's grace...he is going to explain how believers have a new relationship to God's law.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
That leads to the question asked in 6;
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Where we differ is in verse 3... he does not speak of being baptized with water at all...he says
were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death
he does not say baptized into water...so let me ask a question here
What baptizes us into Jesus Christ?
Does water put us into HIM? or Does the Spirit do this?
This question can be asked for all of these truths in this chapter.....
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this,
that our old man is crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be destroyed,
that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ,
we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,
that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God,
as those that are alive from the dead,
and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin,
ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
All of the bolded portions are because of who we are IN Christ, In saving Union to Christ by the work of the Spirit of God.
We are not to sin because we are His and indwelt by the Spirit now...we are to live like who we are in HIM.
Water does none of these things in actuality...at best and secondary it can only picture what the spirit has done in the unseen realm.
because most Baptist churches in our day have become exceedingly shallow they do not even consider such things.
Hello RM
Ok no one is arguing that. The context of the passage is not that however.
All Christians must agree on the work of the Spirit...and now the context.
.The context is that Paul is making a comparison to water baptism showing why we should no longer practice sin
I agree Paul is showing why we should no longer practice sin....but I have it happening another way.
That is the orthodox view and it is a basic tenant of the average Baptist church.
it is a view that is held...but not the only view...I will not dispute that in many average Baptist churches it is "the view'
So RM...back to the context...having explained about how believers are justified by God's grace...he is going to explain how believers have a new relationship to God's law.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
That leads to the question asked in 6;
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Where we differ is in verse 3... he does not speak of being baptized with water at all...he says
were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death
he does not say baptized into water...so let me ask a question here
What baptizes us into Jesus Christ?
Does water put us into HIM? or Does the Spirit do this?
This question can be asked for all of these truths in this chapter.....
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this,
that our old man is crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be destroyed,
that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ,
we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,
that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God,
as those that are alive from the dead,
and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin,
ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
All of the bolded portions are because of who we are IN Christ, In saving Union to Christ by the work of the Spirit of God.
We are not to sin because we are His and indwelt by the Spirit now...we are to live like who we are in HIM.
Water does none of these things in actuality...at best and secondary it can only picture what the spirit has done in the unseen realm.
because most Baptist churches in our day have become exceedingly shallow they do not even consider such things.
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