Romans 7:14-25

[Andre]

Second, I don't think you understand that "death" means separation and has a wider application than "spiritual" separation from God or "physical" separation from the body or "eternal" separation in gehenna! There is separation of the soul from the inward man under the dominion of the "law of sin in my members"!

I do not think this a Biblical position. I politely suggest you are "reading in" a "body-soul" dualism that, while widely believed, is not really a Biblical idea. This ia whole 'nuther discussion that we may need to have.

There is such a thing as EXPERIENTIAL separation when a child of God sins so that he is SEPARATED from fellowship with God, separated from the joy and peace OF God (not peace with God).

That may be so, but that does not mean the "I" in Romans 7 is experiencing this, since it is, of course, perfectly plausibe that the non-believer is also mired in a state of sin-induced separation from God.

 

[Moriah]

You said that Romans 8:7 does not descibe all the lost! The context demands it does describe all the lost. Romans 8:8 defines the condition of Romans 8:7 to be the mindset of all who are "in the flesh" and the only other kind of people on planet earth are those "in the Spirit"! There is no third class people are lost but are not like those described in Romans 8:7-8. That is a figment of your imagination.

Calvinists think that there is only one kind of people, and that is that they are all totally depraved. That no one can do any good; however, Jesus tells us even the wicked love their own.
This thread is about Romans 7. This conversation is about chapter 7, where Paul is speaking of his condition before he is saved. Chapter 8 is about life through the Spirit.

I proved the same thing with John 3:18-20. All lost people hate the light and love darkness because that is the description Jesus gives of ALL UNBELIEVERS and there are only two classes of people on planet earth (1) Unbelievers and (2) believers. Hence, there is no third class or unbelievers that do not hate the light and love the darkness except in the figment of your fertile imagination.

Jesus tells us that light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
There are people who live by the truth, not everyone only loves darkness.

Calvinists are not the only ones that believe Romans 7:14-25 describes Paul as a saved person but operating according to his own flesh. Galatians 5:17 states the same thing and is addressed to SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS in the Galatian congregations.

Galatians 5:17 is about life by the Spirit. Galatians 5 does not support your ideas about Romans 7, for Romans 7 is not about a person with the Spirit.

I proved the same thing with John 3:18-20. All lost people hate the light and love darkness because that is the description Jesus gives of ALL UNBELIEVERS and there are only two classes of people on planet earth (1) Unbelievers and (2) believers. Hence, there is no third class or unbelievers that do not hate the light and love the darkness except in the figment of your fertile imagination.

Jesus tells us even the wicked love their own. Calvinists say all are totally depraved and can do nothing good. There is nothing in the Bible that says all humans are totally depraved. There is no scripture that says we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. That is a manufactured belief.

 

[Andre]

Note this from Romans 7:

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin

A Christian sold in bondage to sin? I do not how this is possible, since this is precisely state from which a Chrisitian is delivered, as Romans 8 makes very clear.

With all due respect, the way many try to retain the position that this "I" is a Christian is to introduce this curious, non-Biblical distinction between a "soul" and a "body". They can then say that the above text is describing the "body" part of a believer whose "soul" is otherwise "saved".

This cannot work for a number of reasons, not least because this soul - body dualism was never part of the Jewish worldview. It is a Greek idea that has influenced western culture and which we impose on these texts.

The basic misunderstanding is this: When Paul speaks of a "spirit-flesh" distinction, he is not talking about a "physical vs non-physical" distinction, he is talking about a "fallen man" vs "redeemed man" distinction. We will probably need to get into this in more detail.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, but this only supports my position.

The "law" of his mind is the Law of Moses. (I am prepared to make the case for this, if you disagree).

I disagree and I will take you to task.

First, the preceding mention is the delight of the inward man after "the law of God" not merely the law of Moses.

Second, in verse 12 the law is that which is "good" and "holy" and "just" and although it includes the ten commandments given by Moses such as "thou shalt not covet" it does not exclude the same laws under Grace as given in Romans 12 and other places.

Third, he is talking to a GENTILE congregation (see Romans 15:15-25) who had only the law of conscience and were never under the law of Moses. Hence, Romans 7:1-5 cannot be restricted simply to the Law of Moses but the Law of God in general whether under Moses or under conscience or the ten commandments which continue under grace as they are being fulfilled by love by direct mention in Romans 12.

Conclusively, you may argue it includes the ten commandments as the context directly refers to the tenth commandment but you cannot argue by context that it is restricted to merely law under Moses.

The "law" in his members is indeed a "second" law, since it is not the law of Moses.

The "law of sin" in his members merely refers to the OPERATION of sin as a "law" and it produces death and the body is dying. It does not refer to the Mosaic Law because the law of Moses does not dwell in our physical body only the PRINCIPLE of sin is at work in our body and that principle of sin is CORRUPTION and DEATH - "this body of DEATH."

So I think the argument remains - we have a law of sin and death which the person in Romans 7 escapes when he becomes the Christian in Romans 8.

That is illogical BECAUSE you do not escape the PRINCIPLE of sin at work in YOUR PHYSICAL BODY when you become a Christian because your PHYSICALLY body will suffer death and death proves you have not escaped that principle IN YOUR BODY.

It really seems hard to believe that Paul would describe a law of sin and death at work in his member in Romans 7, raise the question "who will deliver him from this law, and then go on to describe a person who is clearly a Christian in Romans 8 who has been delivered from a law of sin and death and yet expect us to think that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian.

Sin operates from its base "in my members" or in "THIS BODY" and uses the body's natural cravings and natural drives of the body to tempt the Christian to sin. These natural drives are powerful under the principle of indwelling sin.

Paul is describing the frustration of attempting to handle indwelling sin by his own will power (v. 18b) which cannot overpower these drives under the power of indwelling sin. Hence, he expresses that frustration as well as the realization that he cannot do it in his own power but needs to be DELIVERED and the Deliver is the Spirit of Christ. He will ultimately be delivered "from THIS BODY OF DEATH" at the glorification of the body when this corrruptible will put on incorruptible but he needs deliverance NOW by the power of the Indwelling Spirit of Christ and that is done by yeilding to the indwelling Power of the Holy Spirit Who can "mortify the deeds of the flesh" or the principle of sin at work in "my members."

 

[Moriah]

First, the preceding mention is the delight of the inward man after "the law of God" not merely the law of Moses.

However, Romans 7 is speaking of those under the law! Sin seized the opportunity affored by the commandment, to those under the law.

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, Romans 2:14.

There are two kinds of people, and not how you claim. There are the Jews, the Gentiles, and they become one when they are saved.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, Ephesians 2:14.

There is not all totally depraved then the saved. You have been shown the truth by the scriptures.

 

[The Biblicist]

Note this from Romans 7:

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin

A Christian sold in bondage to sin? I do not how this is possible, since this is precisely state from which a Chrisitian is delivered, as Romans 8 makes very clear.

With all due respect, the way many try to retain the position that this "I" is a Christian is to introduce this curious, non-Biblical distinction between a "soul" and a "body". They can then say that the above text is describing the "body" part of a believer whose "soul" is otherwise "saved".

This cannot work for a number of reasons, not least because this soul - body dualism was never part of the Jewish worldview. It is a Greek idea that has influenced western culture and which we impose on these texts.

The basic misunderstanding is this: When Paul speaks of a "spirit-flesh" distinction, he is not talking about a "physical vs non-physical" distinction, he is talking about a "fallen man" vs "redeemed man" distinction. We will probably need to get into this in more detail.

Verse 14 must be interpreted by the following context where Paul carefully defines what aspect of his nature is sold under sin and what aspect is not.

Paul denies TWICE that "I" is the source of sin within his nature but rather the source of sin is confined to "my flesh...my members.....this body of death"

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

He is not denying responsibility for sin as a whole person but merely defining what aspect within his nature sin originates and what aspect it does not originate.

The problem is not desire to do good and hatred of evil but the WILL POWER to do good and resist evil

but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Hence, the "I" and the "inward man" both hate sin and love God's law and sin does not originate from either but it originates from that which is sold under sin and will die "THIS BODY OF DEATH."

This man SERVES God with the law of His mind and sin does not originate with "I" or the "inward man" but "IN MY FLESH" where there is "NO GOOD THING."

This is the plight of every child of God who attempts to serve God in his own WILL POWER - he cannot do it - it is impossible and to try is to be FRUSTRATED- "O wretched man that I am" which in turn leads to looking outside yourself and your will power to the power of the indwelling Spirit of Christ to deliver you from doing evil.

Paul tells SAVED CHURCH MEMBERS in the Galatian congregations that "YE cannot do" what they want because of this internal warefare when they attempt to walk AFTER the flesh. Hence, he tells them "IF they live in the Spirit" they ought to in addition to that "WALK in the Spirit" and then victory would be achieved here and now in their WALK.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not think this a Biblical position. I politely suggest you are "reading in" a "body-soul" dualism that, while widely believed, is not really a Biblical idea. This ia whole 'nuther discussion that we may need to have.

Paul clearly distinguishes between what he calls "I" versus the "inward man" and "my flesh." So there is no reading anything into the text.

That may be so, but that does not mean the "I" in Romans 7 is experiencing this, since it is, of course, perfectly plausibe that the non-believer is also mired in a state of sin-induced separation from God.

You are not carefully reading the text.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


He explictly states and repeatedly states that "I" would do good and would not do evil while attributing the source of evil to "sin that dwelleth in me" "that is in my flesh."

 

[Andre]

I disagree and I will take you to task.

I suggest that a fine-grained reading of the text shows that it is indeed the Law of Moses that Paul is writing about. The following text makes the case:

Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “(YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”

This is a clear reference to the Law of Moses. Paul is referring to one of the 10 commandments - the one about "not coveting".

And the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

There are other arguments, appealing to the broader context of the entire letter, that this is indeed the Law of Moses.

I hope to deal with your objections in later posts. Even though we fundamentally disagree about this text, I suspect we agree that this is a fascinating argument that Paul is making.

As will become clear, I believe that the person in Romans 7 is specifically the unbelieving Jew. And, yes, I am fully aware that Paul uses "I" - I have an explanation for that to come later.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre, I for one certainly believe your comments are valid and your demeanor in debate exceedingly kind and in keeping with Christian charity.:thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

I suggest that a fine-grained reading of the text shows that it is indeed the Law of Moses that Paul is writing about. The following text makes the case:

Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “(YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”

This is a clear reference to the Law of Moses. Paul is referring to one of the 10 commandments - the one about "not coveting".

And the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

There are other arguments, appealing to the broader context of the entire letter, that this is indeed the Law of Moses.

I hope to deal with your objections in later posts. Even though we fundamentally disagree about this text, I suspect we agree that this is a fascinating argument that Paul is making.

As will become clear, I believe that the person in Romans 7 is specifically the unbelieving Jew. And, yes, I am fully aware that Paul uses "I" - I have an explanation for that to come later.

The major problem of your theory is that it is too restrictive in regard to the audiance being addressed. This is a GENTILE congregation and this is made very clear in Romans 15:15-23

15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. {offering up: or, sacrificing}
17 ¶ I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22 ¶ For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. {much: or, many ways, or oftentimes}
23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

Second, God's law is not restricted to Moses but in regard to the Gentiles it is inclusive of the law written on the conscience (Rom. 2:14-15)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Third, we are talking about the law in regard to the "INWARD man" not the outward man in distinction to 'I" and Paul teaches that the law of God has been written upon the heart of the inward man and that the inward man has been created in "true righteousness and true holiness"

2 Cor. 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Paul instructs BELIEVERS to "put on" this inward man for the very reason discussed in Romans 7:14-25 as there is no victory over indwelling sin any other way. Putting on the inward man is done by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:12-13).

 

[Moriah]

The major problem of your theory is that it is too restrictive in regard to the audiance being addressed. This is a GENTILE congregation and this is made very clear in Romans 15:15-23

You are implying that there are no Jews in the audience. You are also implying that Paul would not speak of Jewish things to Gentiles, but then further in your argument you say that the law was also for the Gentiles.

Second, God's law is not restricted to Moses but in regard to the Gentiles it is inclusive of the law written on the conscience (Rom. 2:14-15)

This is about Gentiles who Jesus has saved. Even though Gentiles may have heard of the law of Moses their whole lives because Moses was preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath, the Gentiles did not have the law of Moses to obey.

Third, we are talking about the law in regard to the "INWARD man" not the outward man in distinction to 'I" and Paul teaches that the law of God has been written upon the heart of the inward man and that the inward man has been created in "true righteousness and true holiness"

Paul was speaking of himself in the “I” because he was reflecting back to before Jesus saved him. He was describing his condition before when he only had the law to follow.

Paul instructs BELIEVERS to "put on" this inward man for the very reason discussed in Romans 7:14-25 as there is no victory over indwelling sin any other way. Putting on the inward man is done by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:12-13).

Romans chapter 8 concludes to what happens to the man who before only had the law to follow. Romans chapter 8 is about life through the Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are implying that there are no Jews in the audience. You are also implying that Paul would not speak of Jewish things to Gentiles, but then further in your argument you say that the law was also for the Gentiles.


This is about Gentiles who Jesus has saved. Even though Gentiles may have heard of the law of Moses their whole lives because Moses was preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath, the Gentiles did not have the law of Moses to obey.


Paul was speaking of himself in the “I” because he was reflecting back to before Jesus saved him. He was describing his condition before when he only had the law to follow.



Romans chapter 8 concludes to what happens to the man who before only had the law to follow. Romans chapter 8 is about life through the Spirit.

I am not trying to be rude to you. However, these answers are so rediculous that I will not spend time answering them because it will do no good as another batch of equally rediculous responses will follow.

I will be discussing this issue with Andre.

 

[Moriah]

I am not trying to be rude to you. However, these answers are so rediculous that I will not spend time answering them because it will do no good as another batch of equally rediculous responses will follow.

I will be discussing this issue with Andre.

You are trying to be rude. My answers were biblical. If you do not like my answers, then you do not like the word of God.
Andre does not agree with you. Let us see if you can be kind to him while he tries to show you correct beliefs about Romans 7.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are trying to be rude. My answers were biblical. If you do not like my answers, then you do not like the word of God.
Andre does not agree with you. Let us see if you can be kind to him while he tries to show you correct beliefs about Romans 7.

fair enough!

 

[The Biblicist]

The major problem of your theory is that it is too restrictive in regard to the audiance being addressed. This is a GENTILE congregation and this is made very clear in Romans 15:15-23

15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. {offering up: or, sacrificing}
17 ¶ I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22 ¶ For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. {much: or, many ways, or oftentimes}
23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

Second, God's law is not restricted to Moses but in regard to the Gentiles it is inclusive of the law written on the conscience (Rom. 2:14-15)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Third, we are talking about the law in regard to the "INWARD man" not the outward man in distinction to 'I" and Paul teaches that the law of God has been written upon the heart of the inward man and that the inward man has been created in "true righteousness and true holiness"

2 Cor. 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Paul instructs BELIEVERS to "put on" this inward man for the very reason discussed in Romans 7:14-25 as there is no victory over indwelling sin any other way. Putting on the inward man is done by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:12-13).

Andre,

I have reposted this because it was the last post I made in response to you. I am not suggesting there were no Jews in the Roman congregations but I am suggesting it was more predominantly Gentile than Jewish. Also, that "the law of God" used in Romans 7:22 is comprehensive even of New Testament commandments and teachings as in Romans 13:8-10.

 

[Andre]

Here Paul deals with two aspects of our salvation. The first is our position in Christ by justificaiton while the second is the Holy Spirit in us for sanctification.

I do not think this really works. Let's say that I agree with you that a distinction can be drawn between our "position in Christ", on the one hand, an our justification, on the other.

Your argument appears to be this:

1. The description (in Romans 8) of the person “delivered from the law of sin and death” is a characterization of a believer's "position in Christ".
2. The description (in Romans 7) of the person “subject to the law of sin and death” is a characterization of a believer "in process" of being sanctified.

I believe there is at least one major problem with each prong of this position.

Regarding point 1: Romans 8 - where have the person set free from the law of sin and death - goes on at great length to characterize the victorious life that such a person manifests, culminating with a grand statement about our being molded unto Christlikeness. This is rather inconsistent with the notion that being "set free from the law of sin and death" focuses on justification as a positional state. In fact, if anything, the actual text of Romans 8 suggests that a life of obedience, and not a positional state is what it means to be set free from the law of sin and death.

Regarding point 2: The person in Romans 7 cannot really be idenitified with a person who is, as you suggest "being delivered progressively by the work of the Holy Spirit ". The person in Romans 7 is entirely enslaved (even though his mind can accept the wisdom of the law). A careful examination of the statements Paul makes reveals a person who is basically unable to do the good he wants to do. I do not see how this can possibly be said of the Christian.

 

[Moriah]

The person in Romans 7 is entirely enslaved (even though his mind can accept the wisdom of the law). A careful examination of the statements Paul makes reveals a person who is basically unable to do the good he wants to do. I do not see how this can possibly be said of the Christian.

The fact that Paul wanted to do good disproves Calvinism. Calvinists claim that no one can want to do good towards God, not without first being saved and born again. Romans 7 proves Calvinism is false, as do many other scriptures.

 

[billwald]

>The fact that Paul wanted to do good disproves Calvinism. Calvinists claim that no one can want to do good towards God, not without first being saved and born again. Romans 7 proves Calvinism is false, as do many other scriptures.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG! Calvinists claim that if anyone does good or wants to do good it is because the Holy Spirit is working on him.

from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace

In the words of Reformed scholar Louis Berkhof, “[Common grace] curbs the destructive power of sin, maintains in a measure the moral order of the universe, thus making an orderly life possible, distributes in varying degrees gifts and talents among men, promotes the development of science and art, and showers untold blessings upon the children of men,” (Berkhof, p. 434, summarizing Calvin’s position on common grace). The various aspects of God's common grace to all mankind may be generally gathered under four heads:

Providential care in creation - God’s sustaining care for his creation, called divine providence, is grace common to all. The Bible says, for instance, that God through the Son "upholds the universe by the word of his power" (Heb. 1:2-3; John 1:1-4). God's gracious provision for his creatures is seen in the giving of the seasons, of seedtime and harvest. It is of this providential common grace that Jesus reminds his hearers when he said God "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matt. 5:45). We also see evidence of God’s common grace in the establishment of various structures within human society. At a foundational level, God has ordained the family unit. Even pagan parents typically know that they should nurture their children (Matt. 7:9-10) and raise them to become responsible adults.

Providential restraint of sin - In the Bible, Paul teaches that civil authorities have been "instituted by God" (Rom. 13:1) to maintain order and punish wrong-doing. Although fallible instruments of his common grace, civil governments are called "ministers of God" (Rom. 13:6) that should not be feared by those who do good. God also sovereignly works through circumstances to limit a persons sinful behavior (Gen. 20:6, 1 Sam. 25:26).

In man's conscience - The apostle Paul says that when unbelieving Gentiles "who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, . . . They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" (Rom. 2:14-15, ESV). By God's common grace fallen mankind retains a conscience indicating the differences between right and wrong. This may be based on the fact that human beings, though fallen in sin, retain a semblance of the "image of God" with which they were originally created (Gen. 9:6: 1 Cor. 11:7).

Providential blessings to mankind - Human advancements that come through the unredeemed are seen as outcomes of God's common grace. For example, medical and other technological advancements that improve the lives of both the redeemed and unredeemed are seen as initiated by common grace.
In summary, common grace is seen in God's continuing care for his creation, his restraining human society from becoming altogether intolerable and ungovernable, his making it possible for mankind to live together in a generally orderly and cooperative manner, and maintaining man's conscious sense of basic right and wrong behavior.

 

[Andre]

The fact that Paul wanted to do good disproves Calvinism. Calvinists claim that no one can want to do good towards God, not without first being saved and born again. Romans 7 proves Calvinism is false, as do many other scriptures.

Greetings:

I do not believe Calvinism is Biblical, but I think billwald's objection has merit - he can assert that the "I" in Romans 7 some person, pre-destined to ultimate salvation, who has yet to actually accept salvation. So while I think Calvinism is not Biblical, I do not think that Romans 7 can make the case.

 

[Andre]

First, the preceding mention is the delight of the inward man after "the law of God" not merely the law of Moses.

Begs the question, since you cannot assume that every reference to the Law of Moses will be explicit. We know from other places in the letter that Paul uses the simple phrase "the law" to refer to the Law of Moses. So you cannot assume that a phrase such as "the law of God" is not a reference specifically to the Law of Moses. After all, God is indeed the author of the Law of Moses.