Romans 7:14-25

[Andre]

Your attempt breaks down and fails in point one! The text does not merely say their "deeds are evil" but it explicitly says "LOVED DARKNESS" and "HATES THE LIGHT" synonmous with Romans 8:7-8 where they are at "enmity" with God and not "subject to the law of God."

No. The point of the post was to point out that I can mount precisely the same kind of argument against your position as you are mounting against mine.

Again:

You are arguing that the Romans 7 person must be a Christian since that person delights in the law of God whereas the non-believer hates God's laws as per the John and Romans 8 texts. OK; in a post other than the one you are responding to here, I have argued how we can still see the Romans 7 person as an unbeliever despite the seeming contradiction.

However, in the post to which your response above was written, I was pointing out that your position is subject to the same kind of critique that you are mounting against mine.

Just as I have the "contradiction" of a non-believer who both loves the things of God and hates them at the same time, you have the contradiction of a believer (in Romans 7, if your position is correct) who does nothing but evil, and a non-believer (as per the John 3 and Romans 8 texts) who also does nothing but evil.

How do you explain this - you have both categories of people doing nothing but evil. Perhaps we can imagine a non-believer doing nothing but evil.

But surely the Christian cannot be in a position where they can do nothing but evil.

A Christian who can do nothing but evil? How is that possible?

 

[DHK]

No. The point of the post was to point out that I can mount precisely the same kind of argument against your position as you are mounting against mine.

Again:

You are arguing that the Romans 7 person must be a Christian since that person delights in the law of God whereas the non-believer hates God's laws as per the John and Romans 8 texts. OK; in a post other than the one you are responding to here, I have argued how we can still see the Romans 7 person as an unbeliever despite the seeming contradiction.

However, in the post to which your response above was written, I was pointing out that your position is subject to the same kind of critique that you are mounting against mine.

Just as I have the "contradiction" of a non-believer who both loves the things of God and hates them at the same time, you have the contradiction of a believer (in Romans 7, if your position is correct) who does nothing but evil, and a non-believer (as per the John 3 and Romans 8 texts) who also does nothing but evil.

How do you explain this - you have both categories of people doing nothing but evil. Perhaps we can imagine a non-believer doing nothing but evil.

But surely the Christian cannot be in a position where they can do nothing but evil.

A Christian who can do nothing but evil? How is that possible?

Every person is "as a pagan" without Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. No one is born a Christian. Therefore we all do nothing but evil until we deliberately choose to trust Christ as Savior and submit to Him as Lord. He alone can save us, and change us. Before that time we are all evil.

It is the moral law of God that condemns us as evil. It is the moral law of God that shows us our guilt before God. It is the moral law of God that shows us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. It is the moral law of God that points us to Christ.

The Law of Moses was never in the context here; Paul was always speaking of the moral law of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

No. The point of the post was to point out that I can mount precisely the same kind of argument against your position as you are mounting against mine.

Again:

You are arguing that the Romans 7 person must be a Christian since that person delights in the law of God whereas the non-believer hates God's laws as per the John and Romans 8 texts. OK; in a post other than the one you are responding to here, I have argued how we can still see the Romans 7 person as an unbeliever despite the seeming contradiction.

However, in the post to which your response above was written, I was pointing out that your position is subject to the same kind of critique that you are mounting against mine.

Just as I have the "contradiction" of a non-believer who both loves the things of God and hates them at the same time, you have the contradiction of a believer (in Romans 7, if your position is correct) who does nothing but evil, and a non-believer (as per the John 3 and Romans 8 texts) who also does nothing but evil.

How do you explain this - you have both categories of people doing nothing but evil. Perhaps we can imagine a non-believer doing nothing but evil.

But surely the Christian cannot be in a position where they can do nothing but evil.

A Christian who can do nothing but evil? How is that possible?

First, neither John 3 or Romans 8 support any lost person that does both good and evil. That is the weakness of your argument. Indeed, Paul is not speaking of good or evil in the sight of men but in the sight of God. Here is what the lost man can do in the sight of God:

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

So, your assessment of a lost man doing both good and evil is wrong because right and wrong is not being viewed or assessed from either his own perspective or the perspective of humanity but from God's perpective according to his own "glory" or standard of righteousness that is being revealed by conscience, Mosaic Law or other human standards that reflect his own glory.

Second, you have distorted/perverted/misconstrued my interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 by assuming your interpretation is inclusive of my own interpretation and therefore inherit in what I must overcome.

Romans 7:14-25 deals with the saved man only in one capacity - his own ability to overcome the indwelling impediment to serve God -indwelling sin.

What you fail to see is that no human, lost or saved has ability to do only what the Spirit of God can do - effectually produce righteousness - as that is the fruit of the Spirit not the fruit of our own ability. This is precisely why it is sin not to be filled with the Spirit/walk in the Spirit as the only other option is to walk after the flesh. This is why Paul tells believers who "live in the Spirit" that they should in addition to living in the Spirit that they must "walk in the Spirit" as there is no other way that righteousness can be produced in your life.

Romans 7:14-25 simply demonstrates the truth of that reality and demands the necessity to be delivered from "this body of death" by the indwellling Spirit of Christ as the only solution to indwelling sin and actual production of righteousness in the life of the believer.

 

[Moriah]

Every person is "as a pagan" without Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. No one is born a Christian. Therefore we all do nothing but evil until we deliberately choose to trust Christ as Savior and submit to Him as Lord. He alone can save us, and change us. Before that time we are all evil.

What you say there has nothing to do with disproving the fact that Romans 7 is about a NON-believer. Romans 7 is about Paul when he was a Pharisee.

It is the moral law of God that condemns us as evil. It is the moral law of God that shows us our guilt before God. It is the moral law of God that shows us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. It is the moral law of God that points us to Christ. The Law of Moses was never in the context here; Paul was always speaking of the moral law of God.

Romans 7 is about those who are under the law.
Romans 7 is about being released from the law!
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ

1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

Here Paul is speaking of the Old Testament law. The law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives.

How you ever get that this is not about the Law of Moses is astounding.
Read on, this is more of Paul EXPLAINING how the Law as given to Moses, has authority over a Jew as long as the Jews lives, but when the Jew turns to Christ, the Jew DIES…the Jew dies to the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

Paul is explaining how those who are under the Old Testament law are not sinning by now obeying Jesus, because through Jesus they die, they are dead in the flesh.

Romans 7 is about Paul, when he was a Pharisee, he DELIGHTED in God’s Law but he could not stop sinning against the Law, God’s Law as given to Moses. How you miss, this obvious truth is astounding.

 

[DHK]

What you say there has nothing to do with disproving the fact that Romans 7 is about a NON-believer. Romans 7 is about Paul when he was a Pharisee.

No it isn't, and you cannot prove it. Paul uses the first person pronoun, "I", throughout the entire chapter. It is his testimony. Nowhere does he indicate that he was unsaved. That is your imagination speaking. Context indicates that he is speaking as a saved person.
The very first verse starts out:

1 Know ye not, brethren
--He is speaking to brethren, as one of the brethren.

He gives an illustration from the law and then he applies it and says:
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
--The first person plural is used here indicating his association with the believers at Rome, not he as an unsaved person.

Romans 7 is about those who are under the law.
Romans 7 is about being released from the law!
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ

Do you read the verse I just quoted? It is to them "who should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Therefore it is not about those who are under the law. You are confused.

1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

Here Paul is speaking of the Old Testament law. The law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives.

Don't stop there. The illustration shows how the spouse dies, and the woman becomes free from the husband as we under grace become free from the law. He is addressing those believers that are free from the law. Don't take Scripture out of its context.

How you ever get that this is not about the Law of Moses is astounding.
Read on, this is more of Paul EXPLAINING how the Law as given to Moses, has authority over a Jew as long as the Jews lives, but when the Jew turns to Christ, the Jew DIES…the Jew dies to the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, the Jew died to the law, and was made free from the bondage of sin.
Read verse 6. The law had no more power over him. The law of the Spirit of life had made him free once he trusted Christ.

2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

Paul is explaining how those who are under the Old Testament law are not sinning by now obeying Jesus, because through Jesus they die, they are dead in the flesh.

Your application is wrong. A Jew is under the law as long he remains a Jew. The result of the law is sin and death. When he trusts Christ it is the law of the spirit of life that makes him free. That law gives him eternal life.

Romans 7 is about Paul, when he was a Pharisee, he DELIGHTED in God’s Law but he could not stop sinning against the Law, God’s Law as given to Moses. How you miss, this obvious truth is astounding.

No it isn't. Paul never mentions his old life. It is about the struggle he has with his old nature and his new nature. He will always have the old nature, even though he has accepted Christ. He will not be under the law, but the law will still be present. The effects of the law will still be there. It will always be there. We will always battle the consequence of sin in our lives; and not only sin, but the consequence of a creation that is under the Adamic curse.

 

[Moriah]

No it isn't, and you cannot prove it. Paul uses the first person pronoun, "I", throughout the entire chapter. It is his testimony. Nowhere does he indicate that he was unsaved. That is your imagination speaking. Context indicates that he is speaking as a saved person.

I could not care less about your opinion of the pronoun “I” as in Romans 7. It is Paul’s testimony! ALL TESTIMONIES START OUT ABOUT A PERSON’S LIFE BEFORE THEY ARE SAVED.

The very first verse starts out:
1 Know ye not, brethren
--He is speaking to brethren, as one of the brethren.
He gives an illustration from the law and then he applies it and says: Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. --The first person plural is used here indicating his association with the believers at Rome, not he as an unsaved person.

PAUL IS SPEAKING ABOUT HIMSELF, AND AS A JEW, HE IS GETTING ALL JEWS UNDER THE LAW TO IDENTIFY WITH HIS TESTIMONY.

Do you read the verse I just quoted? It is to them "who should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Therefore it is not about those who are under the law. You are confused.

You are confused. You do not want to learn something. You do not want to give up your false belief, a false belief that you derived comfort from when you never gave up a sin that you need to give up. I am speaking of a general "you," so do not jump on me for saying "you do not want to give up your false beliefs..."

Don't stop there. The illustration shows how the spouse dies, and the woman becomes free from the husband as we under grace become free from the law. He is addressing those believers that are free from the law. Don't take Scripture out of its context. No, the Jew died to the law, and was made free from the bondage of sin.

YOU MEAN, THE JEWS WHO BELONGED TO THE LAW. GENTILES DID NOT BELONG TO THE LAW. The Jews HAD to obey God, but the Gentiles were not God’s chosen, and they did NOT belong to the law. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30.

Read verse 6. The law had no more power over him. The law of the Spirit of life had made him free once he trusted Christ.

The law God gave to Moses had no more power over him! Again, you cannot see the obvious, because you held onto something that made you comfortable with sin. PLEASE NOTE, THAT WHEN I SAY “YOU" IT IS A GENERAL ‘YOU.’ I AM SPEAKING ABOUT THOSE WHO CLING TO BELIEVING ROMANS 7 IS ABOUT A SAVED PERSON.

Your application is wrong. A Jew is under the law as long he remains a Jew. The result of the law is sin and death. When he trusts Christ it is the law of the spirit of life that makes him free. That law gives him eternal life.

Your application is wrong. You say my application is wrong, but then you turn around and repeat what I said to you.

No it isn't. Paul never mentions his old life.

You are so confused, you do not even see that YOU YOURSELF has said Romans 7 is Paul’s testimony!

It is about the struggle he has with his old nature and his new nature. He will always have the old nature, even though he has accepted Christ. He will not be under the law, but the law will still be present. The effects of the law will still be there. It will always be there. We will always battle the consequence of sin in our lives; and not only sin, but the consequence of a creation that is under the Adamic curse.

You are trying to disgrace Paul. Paul did not have such a struggle with his old nature and his new nature. I know I, as a born again Christian for approximately 13 years now, I have not the struggle you claim the apostle Paul has!
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5:14. You, however, have no idea what that means, if you did, you would not continually say Paul struggled in such a way. If you understood Hebrews 5:14, you would have personal knowledge about giving up sin and you would NOT hang on to the false teachings that you accepted about the saved person.

 

[The Biblicist]

never mind!

 

[DHK]

!
You are trying to disgrace Paul. Paul did not have such a struggle with his old nature and his new nature. I know I, as a born again Christian for approximately 13 years now, I have not the struggle you claim the apostle Paul has!

You are more spiritual and a greater person than the Apostle Paul??
That is your testimony? Amazing!
Paul struggled, and you don't!

But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5:14. You, however, have no idea what that means, if you did, you would not continually say Paul struggled in such a way.

Paul said he struggled. I am just agreeing with Paul, and thus with the Word of God. If you don't agree you disagree with Paul. That is a tough position to be in.

If you understood Hebrews 5:14, you would have personal knowledge about giving up sin and you would NOT hang on to the false teachings that you accepted about the saved person.

Conclusion: Moriah is sinless. Right?

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
--But this verse doesn't teach what you think it teaches.
You still have an old nature. I can see it written on this board.

 

[Moriah]

You are more spiritual and a greater person than the Apostle Paul??
That is your testimony? Amazing!
Paul struggled, and you don't!

Paul did NOT struggle the way he did BEFORE Jesus saved him. I do NOT struggle with sins of the flesh as I did when I was a baby Christian, and especially NOT the same way as BEFORE Jesus saved me. I would love to tell you of when I hated what is evil, when Jesus caused me to see concerning this. I would like to tell you how I could see the Way, and the difference of those who still struggle with sin. You are wrong about Romans 7 and Paul. You speak silliness when you imply that I imply I am greater than Apostle Paul is. Just because you cannot see how cannot I struggle with sin the same as I did before, that does not make what I say about the scriptures false, or what I say about myself as false. You can only speak for yourself when it comes to struggling with sin.

Paul said he struggled. I am just agreeing with Paul, and thus with the Word of God. If you don't agree you disagree with Paul. That is a tough position to be in.

Paul did not say he continued to struggle with sin after he was saved. Romans 7 is about those under the law being released from the law. Paul was speaking of his struggle before Jesus saved him.

Conclusion: Moriah is sinless. Right?

Why does it have to come to this, as always? I never say,"I am sinless." If I do sin, I have one who speaks to the Father in my defense---Jesus Christ. Why do you not understand that I do not struggle with the same sins I have given up once for all is possible? I do NOT struggle with the same sins FOREVER that I have given up once and for all. I feel bad for you if you do still struggle with the same sins you always had, but just because you still struggle with the same sins that you were supposed to have repented of and given up, that does not mean that I do, and it is not proof that Paul does.

John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
--But this verse doesn't teach what you think it teaches.
You still have an old nature. I can see it written on this board.

That verse DOES teach what I know it teaches. As for you thinking I sin here on the board, that is false observation from someone who is not in the position to rightly judge me. You call me a sinner because I use capitol letters and exclamation points on this board is sadly an example of where you are spiritually. You do not make a righteous judgment about me; in fact, you are not to judge a servant of the Lord at all.

I have done nothing wrong on this board in the way I write. Of course, many people whom I have corrected do not like it when I correct them, and they will see all kind of meanness in it. That is just why you have a hard time in making a righteous judgment about me. You would like to try to find fault with me because you have been corrected. You and most others I have corrected will gladly take your side in false judgments, because they do not like me, even though I only want to help others to know the Lord better.

 

[Andre]

Romans 7 is about Paul, when he was a Pharisee, he DELIGHTED in God’s Law but he could not stop sinning against the Law, God’s Law as given to Moses.

I basically agree with this, although I would say that Paul is really talking about Jews under the Law of Moses, and is not talking about himself (despite the use of the "I").

The problem with seeing the "I" here as Paul "the Pharisee" is the transition of tense from past to present. It is hard to see why Paul would say that the sad state of the "I" in Romans 7 applies to himself in the present. After all, he is a believer as he writes this.

I share your mystification at the way some readers see this passage. We have an "I" who is entirely enslaved to sin, unable to actually do the good he wants to.

A Christian who is unable to do good? I cannot see how such a position can be embraced.

And yet many do.

 

[The Biblicist]

I basically agree with this, although I would say that Paul is really talking about Jews under the Law of Moses,
.

I await for your response to my posts! Nothing so far!

 

[Moriah]

I basically agree with this, although I would say that Paul is really talking about Jews under the Law of Moses, and is not talking about himself (despite the use of the "I").

I really like how you pointed out that Paul is speaking about Israelis who have the law. That is important to know. However, Paul is speaking of himself too; for surely Paul as a Pharisee is not excluded from the facts he is speaking. He is speaking of personal knowledge about those under the law. He is speaking of ALL who are under the law who delighted in God’s law, including himself.

The problem with seeing the "I" here as Paul "the Pharisee" is the transition of tense from past to present. It is hard to see why Paul would say that the sad state of the "I" in Romans 7 applies to himself in the present. After all, he is a believer as he writes this.

Paul is a believer who is speaking of when he was under the law. Paul is speaking to all those who know the law. Even many Gentiles knew of the law that Paul and all Jews had to follow. How can one claim it is not proper for Paul to use the pronoun ‘I’ when telling of something that was his past, and everyone’s past who were under the law and are now saved?
Paul’s story is about something of his past, but at the same time, it is present and relevant for those who are listening and understand about the law. Just the fact that Paul says he is speaking to “those who know the law…” see Romans 7:1, this shows that Paul is explaining in a very personal way the truth about the condition of the Jews.

I share your mystification at the way some readers see this passage. We have an "I" who is entirely enslaved to sin, unable to actually do the good he wants to.A Christian who is unable to do good? I cannot see how such a position can be embraced.
And yet many do.

I am so glad to meet you, someone who understands what I am saying. I do think I understand though how others can embrace such a belief, it could be a tell all about themselves, that they repent of sins and then fall back into all the same sins they have previously given up, and they give up sins but constantly fight the desire to do them again.
It is probably very comforting for them to think that even the Apostle Paul had this problem. Please know that I am not saying that it is easy to give up all sins. I also know that falling back to an old sin is not unheard for a Christian, but again, I too have a hard time understanding, just as you say…it is unbelievable at the way some readers see the passage, that the “I” Paul is speaking of is entirely enslaved to sin, unable to actually do the good he want to.

 

[Moriah]

I await for your response to my posts! Nothing so far!

Biblicist,
You say that same thing to others who have proven you wrong with the scriptures. You are given biblical answers, but you still do not see it.

 

[DHK]

Paul did NOT struggle the way he did BEFORE Jesus saved him.

You are right. After salvation he had more of a struggle, not less.

I do NOT struggle with sins of the flesh as I did when I was a baby Christian, and especially NOT the same way as BEFORE Jesus saved me.

Most unsaved people don't struggle with sin. They don't fight the devil; they leap in the pit with him and enjoy the sin. They enjoy their sin, not struggle against it. Why would you struggle against sin when you are not saved. That doesn't make sense, not is it Biblical.

Luke 12:16-19 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
--This man had no struggle with sin. He enjoyed life. "Eat drink and be merry." No problem. An increase in materialism. Life was great. He didn't struggle with sin. Why would he?

Mark 10:21-22 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
--He went away sad after talking with Jesus. But soon after he forgot about him, got caught up in his riches again and began to enjoy life. He didn't have to struggle with sin. Sin was on his side.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--These individuals: "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, or extortioners, struggle with sin. They love it. They like what they do. They enjoy their sin.
--But verse eleven says: "such were some of you." The struggle comes after one is saved when the old nature struggles with the new nature. There is a battle going on. What about that battle? It must be fought on a daily basis, over and over and over again.

Thus Paul said:
I die daily. (1Cor.15:31). I die daily, not just once as you teach, but every day, and sometimes it is the same sin more than once.

A just man falls seven times and gets up again.

Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
--It is a battle, a daily struggle, and for that reason God has made available to us every piece of armor that we as Christians need to overcome sin.
We are to withstand in the evil day. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities... We wrestle; wrestle against demons, demonic power, sin, etc. It is war, battles, etc. The battle is tougher and harder now than ever before. The more one comes closer to the Lord the tougher the battle gets, not easier. You have it backwards.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--The weapons of our warfare are not carnal...
We are in a war, a struggle with sin, with the very thoughts that enter our mind. It goes on every day. Are you able to bring every thought that enters your mind into captivity, to the obedience of Jesus Christ? That is the command here. Understand this, and you realize that the battle becomes harder not easier as the Christian becomes more mature. The more light one has the more responsible he is to the Lord; the more intense the fight will be; the greater the battle with Satan will be. Satan hits the hardest at those who are able to do the most damage to the work of Christ.

Those Christians who do not believe they are in any struggle, or feel no struggle against sin should look well to their own salvation.

 

[Moriah]

You are right. After salvation he had more of a struggle, not less.

You are wrong. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that, and not only do the scriptures NOT say that Paul after salvation had more struggles with sin, that belief actually goes against the scriptures that say we are set free.

Most unsaved people don't struggle with sin. They don't fight the devil; they leap in the pit with him and enjoy the sin. They enjoy their sin, not struggle against it. Why would you struggle against sin when you are not saved. That doesn't make sense, not is it Biblical.

Now, let me explain to you very carefully… People who have faith in something, i.e., like the Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Jews, etc., they want to do right. Do you not know that? Do you not know that there are people who Jesus did not save yet who want to do right?

Mark 10:21-22 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
--He went away sad after talking with Jesus. But soon after he forgot about him, got caught up in his riches again and began to enjoy life. He didn't have to struggle with sin. Sin was on his side.
You cannot say he did not have to struggle with sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--These individuals: "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, or extortioners, struggle with sin. They love it. They like what they do. They enjoy their sin.
--But verse eleven says: "such were some of you." The struggle comes after one is saved when the old nature struggles with the new nature. There is a battle going on. What about that battle? It must be fought on a daily basis, over and over and over again.

I hope that you do not still have this lack of understanding after reading my reply above to you about Jews, Muslims, Catholics, etc… Again, there ARE people who want to do good! The Bible even tells us this, but this you deny.

Thus Paul said:
I die daily. (1Cor.15:31). I die daily, not just once as you teach, but every day, and sometimes it is the same sin more than once.

Stop misquoting me, I never said a Christian gives up all sin at once, and never goes back to an old sin. Stop trying to make it as if I say things that I do not. From what you say here about your sins and about how it is the same sin more than once...I ask you, have you not given up any sin? Is there any sin you have given up and it does NOT tempt you anymore? If you say no, then you are missing some important things about salvation and giving up sin. In addition, you do not teach correctly, what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:31 about dying daily.

We are to withstand in the evil day. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities... We wrestle; wrestle against demons, demonic power, sin, etc. It is war, battles, etc. The battle is tougher and harder now than ever before. The more one comes closer to the Lord the tougher the battle gets, not easier. You have it backwards.

You are the one who has it backwards. You admit to confessing the same things repeatedly. It makes me wonder if you ever gave up any sin and if there is any sin you do not desire. According to the way you teach, you always desire the sin. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that there are Christians who gave up sin and did not go back to it. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that there are Christians who have no desire for sins they used to do. You cannot accept it because it is too unbelievable to you; it is unbelievable to you because you have not experienced such freedom.

We are in a war, a struggle with sin, with the very thoughts that enter our mind. It goes on every day. Are you able to bring every thought that enters your mind into captivity, to the obedience of Jesus Christ? That is the command here. Understand this, and you realize that the battle becomes harder not easier as the Christian becomes more mature. The more light one has the more responsible he is to the Lord; the more intense the fight will be; the greater the battle with Satan will be. Satan hits the hardest at those who are able to do the most damage to the work of Christ.

I know about Satan and about him trying to get in the way of a true believer. However, what you say here about the battle getting harder and not easier is false. Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. That is James 4:7. Are you ready to say that is false? The devil will flee from you, if you submit to God and resist the devil! Again, how can what you say be true, when the Word of God says, “…Resist the devil and he will flee from you”?

Those Christians who do not believe they are in any struggle, or feel no struggle against sin should look well to their own salvation.

You try to tell someone to question their salvation if they gave up a sin and are not tempted by that sin anymore, that is not only backwards, that is kind of wicked. There is not the same struggle as it was BEFORE Jesus saves them, as you say there is. In addition, it is NOT how you say when you say the struggle gets even HARDER and never easier after Jesus saves someone.

 

[DHK]

You are wrong. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that, and not only do the scriptures NOT say that Paul after salvation had more struggles with sin, that belief actually goes against the scriptures that say we are set free.

Where does it say we are set completely free from sin?
The Bible teaches we wage a war against sin?
Did the Lord provide us spiritual armor in vain?? (Eph.6:11-18)

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
--But you don't have a struggle against sin; just cut the verse out of your Bible. And you don't need the armor of God anymore do you?

Now, let me explain to you very carefully… People who have faith in something, i.e., like the Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Jews, etc., they want to do right. Do you not know that? Do you not know that there are people who Jesus did not save yet who want to do right?

1. Catholics--Go to confession once a week and act like the devil the rest of the week.
2. Islam--Being a suicide bomber or "martyr" is the way to paradise.
3. Jews--You don't remember: They crucified Christ.
4. Mormons--It was only a few years ago that they did away with polygamy, and still there are many sects that are doing it.
--Do they want to do right? NO! They want to enjoy their sin and have their religion so they can have an appearance of respectability.

2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
--The unsaved are the swine and the dog. They keep returning to their vomit, their sin. As ugly as it tastes, they love it.

I hope that you do not still have this lack of understanding after reading my reply above to you about Jews, Muslims, Catholics, etc… Again, there ARE people who want to do good! The Bible even tells us this, but this you deny.

This is your little comment after I posted three passages of Scripture with much commentary on how Christians struggle with sin. You couldn't answer the Scripture could you?
You said: "There are people who want to do good."
They can't do good. The Bible says "They love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."
It also says: "Their hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."
It also says: "There is none righteous...There is none good; no not one."
--They don't do good, and they don't want to do good.

Stop misquoting me, I never said a Christian gives up all sin at once, and never goes back to an old sin. Stop trying to make it as if I say things that I do not. From what you say here about your sins and about how it is the same sin more than once...I ask you, have you not given up any sin? Is there any sin you have given up and it does NOT tempt you anymore? If you say no, then you are missing some important things about salvation and giving up sin. In addition, you do not teach correctly, what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:31 about dying daily.

You said you don't have an old nature any more. So what is there to struggle with? What is there to put to death?

You are the one who has it backwards. You admit to confessing the same things repeatedly. It makes me wonder if you ever gave up any sin and if there is any sin you do not desire. According to the way you teach, you always desire the sin. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that there are Christians who gave up sin and did not go back to it. You are the one who cannot accept the fact that there are Christians who have no desire for sins they used to do. You cannot accept it because it is too unbelievable to you; it is unbelievable to you because you have not experienced such freedom.

No need to make everything personal with so many ad hominems.
Now with what you have said above one could only conclude the following:
1. That you would have no need of the armor of God. Eph.6:11-18
2. That you deny that we wrestle a spiritual warfare. Eph.6:11,12.
3. That you deny that we are in a spiritual war 2Cor.10:3-5
4. That you deny that the battle is in the mind 2Cor.10:3-5
--That all of the above speak of a struggle with sin that continues from day to day. And thus Paul says "I die daily."

I know about Satan and about him trying to get in the way of a true believer. However, what you say here about the battle getting harder and not easier is false. Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. That is James 4:7. Are you ready to say that is false? The devil will flee from you, if you submit to God and resist the devil! Again, how can what you say be true, when the Word of God says, “…Resist the devil and he will flee from you”?

The battle does get harder, but "he giveth more grace."
Let me give you an example.
1. Go into the bathroom and look into the mirror. But look into the mirror without any lights on. Make sure it is dark. That is what it is like for the unsaved. They love darkness rather than light. They don't see the light. They are blind to the truth.
2. Now turn on a nite-light on--two-five Watts. How well do you see yourself in the mirror now? That is the baby Christian. He has little knowledge of the Word of God, little light. He can't see his reflection very well, and spiritually can't understand the Bible well, nor does his sin show up very well as far as he can see himself. He probably is still quite worldly as a new Christian.
3. Now put a 20 Watt light bulb in. It is much brighter now. You see more. You are growing. You see the specks on your face. You see where you need to clean up more. The Bible calls God's Word a mirror. It reflects who we are to us. Keep growing.
4. Put a 60 Watt bulb in, and then 100W, and then finally two 100W bulbs in. When you have reached that stage you can see every little speck of dirt in your face; every spot that you have missed. In other words the light points to those places which are defiled. The brighter the light the more obvious are the defects.

And so it is with Christians. The brighter the light the more obvious are the defects. The closer one lives with Christ, the more obvious is the sin in his life. The carnal Christian never sees the sin that the Christian who has a close walk with God does. One who has a holy walk realizes what a battle it is to walk a holy walk; to wage a daily war against sin; to keep every thought in captivity to the obedience of Jesus Christ; to realize that your words can act like arms of love or cut like a knife. The new Christian is oblivious of these things. He doesn't understand all that is in the Word of God. Thus the mature Christian has a much greater battle, for he has much greater light.

You try to tell someone to question their salvation if they gave up a sin and are not tempted by that sin anymore, that is not only backwards, that is kind of wicked. There is not the same struggle as it was BEFORE Jesus saves them, as you say there is. In addition, it is NOT how you say when you say the struggle gets even HARDER and never easier after Jesus saves someone.

If a mature Christian has no struggle against sin, he should look well into his salvation for the devil will do his best to attack mature Christians. He doesn't attack the unsaved, for the unsaved are on the devil's side.

 

[The Biblicist]

Where does it say we are set completely free from sin?
The Bible teaches we wage a war against sin?
Did the Lord provide us spiritual armor in vain?? (Eph.6:11-18)

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
--But you don't have a struggle against sin; just cut the verse out of your Bible. And you don't need the armor of God anymore do you?

1. Catholics--Go to confession once a week and act like the devil the rest of the week.
2. Islam--Being a suicide bomber or "martyr" is the way to paradise.
3. Jews--You don't remember: They crucified Christ.
4. Mormons--It was only a few years ago that they did away with polygamy, and still there are many sects that are doing it.
--Do they want to do right? NO! They want to enjoy their sin and have their religion so they can have an appearance of respectability.

2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
--The unsaved are the swine and the dog. They keep returning to their vomit, their sin. As ugly as it tastes, they love it.

This is your little comment after I posted three passages of Scripture with much commentary on how Christians struggle with sin. You couldn't answer the Scripture could you?
You said: "There are people who want to do good."
They can't do good. The Bible says "They love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."
It also says: "Their hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."
It also says: "There is none righteous...There is none good; no not one."
--They don't do good, and they don't want to do good.

You said you don't have an old nature any more. So what is there to struggle with? What is there to put to death?

No need to make everything personal with so many ad hominems.
Now with what you have said above one could only conclude the following:
1. That you would have no need of the armor of God. Eph.6:11-18
2. That you deny that we wrestle a spiritual warfare. Eph.6:11,12.
3. That you deny that we are in a spiritual war 2Cor.10:3-5
4. That you deny that the battle is in the mind 2Cor.10:3-5
--That all of the above speak of a struggle with sin that continues from day to day. And thus Paul says "I die daily."

The battle does get harder, but "he giveth more grace."
Let me give you an example.
1. Go into the bathroom and look into the mirror. But look into the mirror without any lights on. Make sure it is dark. That is what it is like for the unsaved. They love darkness rather than light. They don't see the light. They are blind to the truth.
2. Now turn on a nite-light on--two-five Watts. How well do you see yourself in the mirror now? That is the baby Christian. He has little knowledge of the Word of God, little light. He can't see his reflection very well, and spiritually can't understand the Bible well, nor does his sin show up very well as far as he can see himself. He probably is still quite worldly as a new Christian.
3. Now put a 20 Watt light bulb in. It is much brighter now. You see more. You are growing. You see the specks on your face. You see where you need to clean up more. The Bible calls God's Word a mirror. It reflects who we are to us. Keep growing.
4. Put a 60 Watt bulb in, and then 100W, and then finally two 100W bulbs in. When you have reached that stage you can see every little speck of dirt in your face; every spot that you have missed. In other words the light points to those places which are defiled. The brighter the light the more obvious are the defects.

And so it is with Christians. The brighter the light the more obvious are the defects. The closer one lives with Christ, the more obvious is the sin in his life. The carnal Christian never sees the sin that the Christian who has a close walk with God does. One who has a holy walk realizes what a battle it is to walk a holy walk; to wage a daily war against sin; to keep every thought in captivity to the obedience of Jesus Christ; to realize that your words can act like arms of love or cut like a knife. The new Christian is oblivious of these things. He doesn't understand all that is in the Word of God. Thus the mature Christian has a much greater battle, for he has much greater light.

If a mature Christian has no struggle against sin, he should look well into his salvation for the devil will do his best to attack mature Christians. He doesn't attack the unsaved, for the unsaved are on the devil's side.

Great post!!!: Great analogy thumbs::thumbs:

Only very immature, deceived or lost persons can actually believe that they have largely conquered sin in their own person. The closer one gets to God - the Great Light the greater their own imperfections are made manifested! The closer you walk with the Lord the greater the humility because the closer you walk with the Lord the greater your sinfulness is revealed.

Heb. 12:1 ¶ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no possibility that this text can be restricted to Jews and Jewish law only. The immediate context will not permit it.

1. Both Jew and Gentile are under consideration as both are said to be EQUALLY “under sin” – v. 9

2. Romans 3:10-18 characterizes what it means to be “under sin” for both Jew and Gentile.

3. Romans 3:19-20 is inclusive of all who are “under the law” and both Jews (Rom. 2:17-22) and Gentiles (Rom. 2:14-15) have both been proven to be “under the law” of God whether by Moses or by Conscience.

4. Romans 3:19-20 uses UNIVERSAL language
a. “every mouth” NOT “every Jewish mouth”
b. “no flesh” NOT “no jews”
c. “ALL the world” NOT “all Israel”

5. The Righteousness of God is revealed more than by Mosaic Law – Rom. 3:21-22 – or else Paul cannot say “THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE; for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God” – Rom. 6:23

a. If the Gentiles were not “under law” they could not be “under sin” for sin is the transgression of the law and thus THERE WOULD BE A DIFFERENCE!

b. The redemption in Romans 3:25-26 is not restricted to Jews only and therefore “THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE” for both Jew and Gentile has violated “the law of God.

CONCLUSION: The “law of God” equals “the righteousness of God” and that is manifested by both Moses and Conscience.

The Law of Moses cannot be restricted to merely Jews in regard to "moral righteousness" because God made all mankind "upright" or according to a righteous standard. The law that says "thou shalt not kill" had preceded Moses (Gen. 9:3-4) and moral law is inseparably united (James 2:10-11).

Where are you Andre? You have not responded?

Andre, even though I disagree with you, I respect the fact that you deal directly with the evidence placed before you instead of doing what another poster does on this thread and that is ignore it and simply spout out his position rather than actually dealing with the evidence placed before him.

 

[Andre]

I await for your response to my posts! Nothing so far!

I am very busy and can only write a post or two per day. I hope to address as many of your posts as I can.

 

[Andre]

Every person is "as a pagan" without Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. No one is born a Christian. Therefore we all do nothing but evil until we deliberately choose to trust Christ as Savior and submit to Him as Lord. He alone can save us, and change us. Before that time we are all evil.

I do not agree that unbelievers are "100 %" evil. Although I do not have the time right now to get into this in detail, I suggest the following:

1. Texts which speak of the lost as entirely evil are using a form of literary device - they are not intended to put forward the idea that lost people are incapable of doing no good whatsoever;

2. The empirical evidence of living in the real world shows that even the lost do indeed exhibits glimmers of goodness. Yes, we are all fallen, but a non-believer is not 100 % evil through and through.

Consequently we can plausibly assert that someone who, at some level delights in the Law of Moses could be a non-believer.

The Law of Moses was never in the context here; Paul was always speaking of the moral law of God.

As always, the details matter. And the details show that, indeed, the Law of Moses is in view here.

1. Paul writes about "not serving according to the written letter".

What do you suggest this is, if not a reference to the written code of the Law of Moses? He must be referring to something written here - so what is it?

2. Paul refers to the Law "coming" and then quotes from the Law of Moses. Do you not see how Paul is referring to the delivery of the Law of Moses at Sinai? To see it otherwise is to (1) have to change this: "I was once alive apart [from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died..." into something like "I was once alive apart from the Law; but when I became aware of the commandment, sin became alive and I died..." But Paul says what he says - a reference to a law coming, followed by a direct quote from the Law of Moses, on top of the earlier reference to a written code, together form a compelling case that it is, in fact, the Law of Moses that is in view here.

And there are other arguments for this as well. But that will have to wait.