Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23

[Van]

Let me summarize, Calvinism claims the lost man is unable to seek God through faith or works, and so Romans chapter 7 must refer to Paul's battle after regeneration.

Everybody else that just reads the chapter accepts that Paul is describing his condition before being saved. The issue is not that we did not stuggle before being saved, we struggled big time, knowing we were not good enough for God. And the issue is not that we do nolt continue to struggle with our "old man" nature, because we do.

So what can we learn from Paul in Chapter 7. Before we were saved, we were wretched, but after being saved, we are free of the penalty of sin, and each day we can pick up our cross and follow Him. And as He leads us in paths of righteousness we know that we not be disappointed. Praise be to Jesus our Savior, Lord and Master.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have to disagree on the basis that even you admit you sometimes sin.
This thing called living in sin is what we all do if we are honest. If we sin it is always the same sins over and over. It being habitual is what makes Chapter 7 the battle we all go through for the rest of our lives because it isn't natural for man's flesh not to sin.

Flesh is still natural. Our flesh is not regenerated. Sin still lives with in our flesh which is why Paul trained him self. We have to train our flesh to run the race so to speak.
I've never met anyone who could live long with out commiting some kind of sin.It's why we have an advocate named Jesus Christ proclaiming our innocents because we wear His righteousness.
MB

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:....unfortunately.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let me summarize, Calvinism claims the lost man is unable to seek God through faith or works, and so Romans chapter 7 must refer to Paul's battle after regeneration.

Everybody else that just reads the chapter accepts that Paul is describing his condition before being saved. The issue is not that we did not stuggle before being saved, we struggled big time, knowing we were not good enough for God. And the issue is not that we do nolt continue to struggle with our "old man" nature, because we do.

So what can we learn from Paul in Chapter 7. Before we were saved, we were wretched, but after being saved, we are free of the penalty of sin, and each day we can pick up our cross and follow Him. And as He leads us in paths of righteousness we know that we not be disappointed. Praise be to Jesus our Savior, Lord and Master.

Paul is writing as a christian.....more error being posted,denying much scripture. Your posts and the biblical teaching seem to be quite different.

 

[freeatlast]

I have to disagree on the basis that even you admit you sometimes sin.
This thing called living in sin is what we all do if we are honest. If we sin it is always the same sins over and over. It being habitual is what makes Chapter 7 the battle we all go through for the rest of our lives because it isn't natural for man's flesh not to sin.

Flesh is still natural. Our flesh is not regenerated. Sin still lives with in our flesh which is why Paul trained him self. We have to train our flesh to run the race so to speak.
I've never met anyone who could live long with out commiting some kind of sin.It's why we have an advocate named Jesus Christ proclaiming our innocents because we wear His righteousness.
MB

Not according to the scriptures. No one once born again practices sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Christians can and often do terrible things. We are given the example of the Church at Corinth where some "slept".

Having an unworthy walk and then coming to the Lord's table even "drunken".

1 Corinthians 11

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

Also in the Church at Thyatira the servants of God were committing fornication.

To what do you attribute the source of these sins FAL if not the flesh which had not yet been mortified?

James 1

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

It would seem that if there were no flesh nature but only a spiritual nature after being born again then it would be impossible for a child of God to sin at all which some in christendom have believed and taught.

Even these groups make room for repentance after such sins but yet are at a loss to explain how a regenerated being with only a spiritual nature has the ability to sin.

Obviously I disagree.

Thanks

HankD​

I am not sure what you mean by flesh nature but I can tell you that no believer has two natures. No one once born again practices sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Why do you add to what is said? Yes a child of God can sin, but they cannot practice sin. QUOTE]

Neither David, Abraham, or Lot made sin their practice as a lifestyle either, but they were caught up in sin for prolonged periods. Are you saying you cannot be caught up in prolonged periods of sin? Have you ever continued in sin for an hour? A day? A week? A month?

Look at Joseph and Daniel and it is difficult to find sin in the record of their life. How do you account for the difference between Joseph/Daniel and Abraham/David/Lot/Solomon?

Like I said you cannot compare the OT saints to us. They did not have the indwelling Spirit as we do.
I am telling what the bible says. No one who is born of God practices sin. And no I have never practiced sin as a believer as that is impossible. To practice sin is to willfully sin without confession and turning form the sin. No child of God can do that.
So have I ever continued in sin for an hour, a day, a week, or a month, NO! Any sin I have ever done as a believer has always been confessed and turned from once done and the same is with any believer. That is not to say the temptation cannot revisit the person and the person will have to repeat the confessing and turning from it, but willful unrepentant sinning is not the practice of any believer as some falsely claim today.

 

[The Biblicist]

Like I said you cannot compare the OT saints to us. They did not have the indwelling Spirit as we do.
I am telling what the bible says. No one who is born of God practices sin. And no I have never practiced sin as a believer as that is impossible. To practice sin is to willfully sin without confession and turning form the sin. No child of God can do that.
So have I ever continued in sin for an hour, a day, a week, or a month, NO! Any sin I have ever done as a believer has always been confessed and turned from once done and the same is with any believer. That is not to say the temptation cannot revisit the person and the person will have to repeat the confessing and turning from it, but willful unrepentant sinning is not the practice of any believer as some falsely claim today.

I think you mistake "practice" of sin as a lifestyle choice with periods of sin as a weakness connected with all saints while in the flesh.

For example, there is doctrinal sin. There are true children of God who continued in false doctrine for years until they were enlightened and only then were they capable of confessing it was wrong and repenting of it.

The fact is that every child of God is in a process of being conformed to the image of Christ and therefore not yet conformed and therefore living in sins not yet even recognized by them.

The fact is that every child of God has at least one particular weakness they will struggle with until the day they die and God may give them a "thorn in the flesh" to help them deal with that weakness.

The fact is that the closer one walks with God in the light the more sinful they see themselves in that light because of the drastic comparison between Christ and themselves.

I would suggest that you have so many sins in your life right now that you do not even recognize yet. Not only so, but willful sin is something every child of God practices to some extent. You practice it unto the extent it takes for your pride to be humbled, conviction to take place and confession to be made and it is never the same length of time.

I can readily claim Romans 7:14 and every verse after that as part of my present experience. I am but flesh, and rooted in my being there is a law of rebellion that resides within me that is always fighting for control of my mind and will. This is the constant battle the Christian faces every day and there is spiritual armour that one must intellectually and purposely "put on" in order to "put off" the old man and his lusts that war against the soul.

 

[freeatlast]

I think you mistake "practice" of sin as a lifestyle choice with periods of sin as a weakness connected with all saints while in the flesh.

For example, there is doctrinal sin. There are true children of God who continued in false doctrine for years until they were enlightened and only then were they capable of confessing it was wrong and repenting of it.

The fact is that every child of God is in a process of being conformed to the image of Christ and therefore not yet conformed and therefore living in sins not yet even recognized by them.

The fact is that every child of God has at least one particular weakness they will struggle with until the day they die and God may give them a "thorn in the flesh" to help them deal with that weakness.

The fact is that the closer one walks with God in the light the more sinful they see themselves in that light because of the drastic comparison between Christ and themselves.

I would suggest that you have so many sins in your life right now that you do not even recognize yet. Not only so, but willful sin is something every child of God practices to some extent. You practice it unto the extent it takes for your pride to be humbled, conviction to take place and confession to be made and it is never the same length of time.

I can readily claim Romans 7:14 and every verse after that as part of my present experience. I am but flesh, and rooted in my being there is a law of rebellion that resides within me that is always fighting for control of my mind and will. This is the constant battle the Christian faces every day and there is spiritual armour that one must intellectually and purposely "put on" in order to "put off" the old man and his lusts that war against the soul.

What you call doctrinal sin is not practicing sin. What you are doing is piling weights on men's backs that even you cannot bear. Having something in your life that you do not know is wrong does not constitute practicing sin. To practice sin one has to do it willfully and knowingly and no believer does that as a way they live their daily lives. No one who is born again practices sin.

Romans 7 is not talking about the practice of sin. Paul has already made it clear in prior verse "shall we sin that grace abound"? God forbid. Chapter 7 is dealing with those who know the law. Most likely Jews and they were trying to live under the law. Paul is trying to show them that they are not under the law and that they can be free in Christ.

I understand that YOU say Christians practice sin but God says they don't. Can you Guess who I am going to believe?

 

[Don]

Seems to me y'all have a conflict of terminology going. FreeAtLast is correct about "practicing" sin; "practicing" seems to imply continuing sin. Biblicist is correct about "periods of weakness"; i.e., the occasional sin, to which Paul implies that he himself has struggles ("that which I would not, I do").

 

[freeatlast]

Seems to me y'all have a conflict of terminology going. FreeAtLast is correct about "practicing" sin; "practicing" seems to imply continuing sin. Biblicist is correct about "periods of weakness"; i.e., the occasional sin, to which Paul implies that he himself has struggles ("that which I would not, I do").

Actually Paul does not suggest he is having trouble with sin. We know this because while he was under the law he said he kept the law. If he kept it while under it he is not now battling sin while under grace.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


In Romans 7 Paul is relating to those who know the law, verse 1. He is not relating an experience he is having at the present time. He is striving to get them to see to come all the way to Christ and being free from the law. That is why he mentioned verses 2 and 3
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

 

[freeatlast]

I think you mistake "practice" of sin as a lifestyle choice with periods of sin as a weakness connected with all saints while in the flesh.

For example, there is doctrinal sin. There are true children of God who continued in false doctrine for years until they were enlightened and only then were they capable of confessing it was wrong and repenting of it.

The fact is that every child of God is in a process of being conformed to the image of Christ and therefore not yet conformed and therefore living in sins not yet even recognized by them.

The fact is that every child of God has at least one particular weakness they will struggle with until the day they die and God may give them a "thorn in the flesh" to help them deal with that weakness.

The fact is that the closer one walks with God in the light the more sinful they see themselves in that light because of the drastic comparison between Christ and themselves.

I would suggest that you have so many sins in your life right now that you do not even recognize yet. Not only so, but willful sin is something every child of God practices to some extent. You practice it unto the extent it takes for your pride to be humbled, conviction to take place and confession to be made and it is never the same length of time.

I can readily claim Romans 7:14 and every verse after that as part of my present experience. I am but flesh, and rooted in my being there is a law of rebellion that resides within me that is always fighting for control of my mind and will. This is the constant battle the Christian faces every day and there is spiritual armour that one must intellectually and purposely "put on" in order to "put off" the old man and his lusts that war against the soul.

No I am not mistaken. No one who is born again practices sin. That would include for a month a week or a day. We live our daily lives with our hearts and minds fixed on Christ with an occasional sin and even that does nothappen every day, or at least it should nothappen every day, but it is confessed and turned from. The one who practices sin does it with no remorse or turning. It is their practice. It does not take great sins or constant sinning. It is why and how we sin that makes it a practice just like it is what we do after we sin that makes it something that is passing and not a practice.

 

[The Biblicist]

No I am not mistaken. No one who is born again practices sin. That would include for a month a week or a day. We live our daily lives with our hearts and minds fixed on Christ with an occasional sin and even that does nothappen every day, or at least it should nothappen every day, but it is confessed and turned from. The one who practices sin does it with no remorse or turning. It is their practice. It does not take great sins or constant sinning. It is why and how we sin that makes it a practice just like it is what we do after we sin that makes it something that is passing and not a practice.

I guess we are at an impasse because you will not make a distinction between the "pratice" of sin as a lifestyle choice versus periods of weakness that do not reflect their lifestyle practice but reflect the periodical weakness of the flesh.

Perhaps, I should approach it a different way. Do you think that you constantly "walk in the Spirit" or that you constantly are "filled with the Spirit" or that you constantly "put off the old man" and constantly "put on the new man" or do you admit there are periods where you fail and falter and that such periods may last for various extents of time?

I might point out that the Greek text does not provide the term "practice" but this is an interpretation of the present tense. The present tense does not necessarily mean continuous action without pause. The iterative present tense can convey intermittant action without definition of length of gaps or periods.

 

[freeatlast]

I guess we are at an impasse because you will not make a distinction between the "pratice" of sin as a lifestyle choice versus periods of weakness that do not reflect their lifestyle practice but reflect the periodical weakness of the flesh.

Perhaps, I should approach it a different way. Do you think that you constantly "walk in the Spirit" or that you constantly are "filled with the Spirit" or that you constantly "put off the old man" and constantly "put on the new man" or do you admit there are periods where you fail and falter and that such periods may last for various extents of time?

It depends on what you mean by periods of time. if you mean months, weeks, days or even hours, of not walking or being ked of the spirit then the answer is no that does no happen. If you mean by periods of time sinning and then turning from the sin yes that happens but even that is not a daily thing and should not be for any born again believer especially if they have been saved for any period of time.
So no there is no extent of time (practice sin) where I sin. Nor is there for any believer as it is impossible. You do not have to look at a persons entire life and see if it was a 51 to 49 percent thing. Those who practice sin do it without shame. It is who they are. You will not be surprised when a lost person sins. You will be surprised when a true believer sins because it is so unlike them. In fact the believer will be shocked.


If you have not done so listen to this explanation on keeping the commandments and practicing sin. It is one of the best I have heard.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3

 

[Romans7man]

Quite an abritrary approach. However, what you are suggesting actually contradicts Romans 7:14-25 as it is found in the present tense instead of the past tense. What you say may be true of Romans 7:6-13 but not Romans 7:14-25.

Arbitrary? Yes this would be my judgement of how I see it. A whim? no! I have studied this, as I believe you have as well. We just see it differently. I believe the Calvinist see it this way, because of the teachings of "original sin", but that would be another subject for another thread, of which are many already. Those of us that see this as a lost man see the present tense as historical present tense, as you already know. I would say it is true of Romans 14-25 as well as 6-13.

In my experience in dealing with this issue, those who insist that Romans 7:14-25 refers to Paul in his lost state base this claim primarily on verse 14 where he says:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

That would be one reason. To say verse 14 is a saved man is laughable to say the least. When Paul says, I am carnal, he is referring to being of this world, earthy, versus being born from above, spiritual. To be "sold under sin", is to say he is lost. I don't know how much more clear it can be than that. We are not "sold under sin", we have bought with a price, the blood of Christ!

However, it would seem that Paul is merely referring to his temporal unglorified condition or state of existence as a child of God in regard to the continuing principle of death still at work in his body in connection with indwelling sin that will not be removed until Jesus comes and we are delivered from the indwelling death principle at His coming (Rom. 7:24).

I say this because Paul clarifies himself in verses 17-18 where he restricts this problem to what he calls "the flesh" in contradistinction to himself or "in me."

Here again this is just another verse that should confirm Paul is speaking of his past life, or all of our past lives. but how to perform that which is good I find not. Paul goes into detail many places on how to overcome sin, but here he does not know how, so I am to believe this is, Paul the apostle, the man that has scolded many for not walking in truth? WOW!

Furthermore, this indwelling sin problem or law characterzing his "flesh" is described as a continuing problem until a yet future deliverance by Christ (v. 24). At the second coming the present body of death will be transformed so that the death principle no longer characterizes it.

Romans 7:24;O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Wretchedness is always in Paul's past! "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death", is in this man's present, but it is in a believer's past.
The man here knows where the problem lies, in his flesh. Many people come to this same place of despair and want to be free from what troubles them so much so they commit suicide, so am I to believe everyone that wants to be free from sin so much so that they would commit suicide is saved?
Paul in his excitement of not being this man in Romans 7 any longer thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord in the next verse before concluding how a man thinks he is justified before God in 25b, By convincing himself as long as he serves God in his mind, all is well. In 25b Paul has brought the reader to the understanding of where they were in 1:18-3:20.
When we see 25a as an interjection, as Paul does a number of times in his writings, we will see this is indeed a lost man trying to be saved or sanctified in his own strength without God.

Also, in speaking to the Galatians he summarizes the very same problem that presently characterizes those who profess to be Christians:

Gal. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians is a warning no doubt, as Paul is warning them to stand fast or else. 5:1;Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
I'm not sure if you are saying 5:17 is saying the same thing as is Romans 7, but I'll just give you my understanding of it.

What it is not saying is, I can't overcome sin, because I'm carnal and sold under sin. It is saying even though the flesh lusts against the Spirit the flesh is not able to have it's way, because we walk in the Spirit.

If you do not walk in the Spirit our spirit is not able to overcome on a continual basis, the lusts of the flesh. And if you do walk after the flesh then you will come back under bondage to the flesh. And if you do come back under bondage to the flesh and do not heed the warnings of brothers in Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit, God will call you out of here, as 1 Corinthians shows.

The same present tense is found here as well as the same solution to this problem - walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16,18,25; Rom. 8:1-27).

Finally, what true Christian is not involved in this internal struggle on a daily basis?? What true Christian is not involved in a daily war for the mind (2 Cor. 10:5)??

I don't know of anyone here that would even suggest no Christian deals with temptation. In fact we are to count it joy when it comes ,James 1:2; My brethern , count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;. and 1 Peter1:6; Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: Now I don't know that any would count it joy when in the midst of the battle with temptation, but knowing God has already made a way of escape, 1:Corinthians 10:13, we can count it all joy!

No lost person has an "inward man" that delights in the law of God but rather their inclination is to be at "enmity with God and not subject to the law of God and neither indeed CAN BE" (Rom. 8:7).

I do believe you are adding just your opinion here. Now just to be clear, are you saying a lost man does not have an inward man?, as this is an excepted belief among Calvinist. or are you just saying a lost man's inward man does not delight in the law of God? At any rate both are wrong!
Paul tells us the Jew rested in the law way back in Romans 2:17. "Delight" is simply to have pleasure in. The problem Paul had with the Jews was they were TOO pleased with the law and not pleased enough in Who gave the law!

To say the mark of a saved man is one that "delights" in the law of God is to say Paul was surely wasting his time converting the Jews from law to Faith. You speak as one that law is what saves. I feel as though I am speaking to a pharisee when addressing this issue.

However, saved person can walk "after the flesh" just as much as they can "walk in the Spirit" and sin in their lives proves this (1 Jn. 1:8-10).

I would not argue with the fact that many Christians have turned back and walked after the flesh and stopped walking in the Spirit. That only proves what? that they were either not saved to begin with or they have fallen back into bondage to the sins of the flesh.

I have never really addressed this issue before, but seeing how you bring it up, I have a question about that passage.
This is used to show that even though we are saved we still have sin in us and if we deny that we don't have sin in us we are calling God a liar. I think that would be a fair assessment of it, correct me if I'm wrong.

But here lies the problem. In 1 John 1:7 we are told we are cleansed from all sin.

The question must be asked here, Is verse 8 addressing a saved man? or is John speaking to someone lost? or maybe he is addressing both saved and lost.

In 1:3 he alludes to maybe he might be speaking to lost folk. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: Is he saying to someone, you can have fellowship with us to and that fellowship is found in the Father and Jesus Christ.

Is this a letter of evangelism? He goes on to say in 2:1;My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. Now we know this is directed directly to the saved, but the next part may be directed to anyone.And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. who is the "any man"? The next verse alludes to the whole world.

Here John is telling us we can be free from sin by coming to Christ, but the Calvinist are singing a different song from what I gather. They would have us to believe we are still carnal, sold unto sin, slaves to sin and that is just the facts of life, so live with it. I'm so glad I have an English Bible I can read for myself, pray for understanding and be lead by the Spirit!

Thank you Jesus for cleansing me from my sin!!!

 

[Romans7man]

Romans 6:16; Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Here Paul makes a statement of logic that anyone could relate to, just as he does in 7:1.
Here Paul is beginning to reiterate his main points he started in chapter 1. In chapters 1:18-3:20 Paul begins showing us how man has gotten in the mess he has. In these chapters we see man making one choice after another. The first wrong choice is 1:21;Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Our first mistake is when we think we don't need God and we can do just fine without Him. When we know God or know of God and do not glorify Him for who He is and then add insult to injury by not even being thankful for all He has done for us we have broken even our own standard of conduct. Here in the south it is basic understanding that we thank folks for even the smallest of things, such as when someone opens the door or holds the door for even a stranger, but then we don't give thanks to God for all He has done for us? I'm not saying it is a sin to do those things for our fellow man, but when a man will thank another man for things such as this, but then we don't do it for our creator, I would say we have our priorities upside down.
When we turn away from God and are not thankful, where else can a man go but into sin?
Paul goes through a list of things that anyone, well, most anyone, would be in agreement that those that do such things are indeed worthy of death. Paul does this to cause one to judge and condemn others, but then he turns the table on them and says in 2:1;Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Paul reminds us that God's judgement is according to thruth, whereas ours may be biased.
He then tells us in 2:6-11 basically what he has told us in 6:16. It is how one lives their life that determines whether or not they are servants of righteousness or servants of sin. Depending on which one determines life or death.

Romans 6:17;But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Here Paul picks up where he did in 3:21 saying "But now" leading up to what has saved us, faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul makes a contrast between our old lost condition brought on by our works to our new relationship with God. He gives thanks to God that sin is not our master any longer, but that we have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine that saved us. That form of doctrine that we believed from the heart and delivered us is faith. When you go back and read 3:21-4:25 we see faith is what God has been trying to get man to come to. So go back and read 3:21-4:25 and 5:1 and 2. Paul picks this up again in 9:30. So read 9:30 through the end of chapter 10.

Romans 6:18;Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Again Paul tells us we are free from sin. We are free from sin because we have been justified by faith, Romans 5:1. We are not servants of sin, but servants of righteousness. Romans 5:21;That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:19;For I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: As in many of Paul's letters it seems that he never could speak to them as he really wished he could, so he spoke to them as if they had never heard the gospel before, reminding them of things they have already heard. Romans chapter 6 is no exception, as we read even in 6:1 and 2 and then saying in v:3 Know ye not, as though he was reminding them of something they already had been taught and knew before he even said it again.
for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. In the same way we lived in sin by giving ourselves completely over to the lusts of the flesh, we are to now to give ourselves over to righteousness. This comes on the heels of What Paul says in this chapter. 6:1; shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 6:2; God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? And again Paul asks the question, What then?shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? His answer comes with a resounding No! God forbid. He tells us we are dead to sin, because we have been baptized into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Because of these truths how can we live in sin? After everything God has done for us? No, we are to now walk in righteousness!

Romans 6:20 and 21 being in the past tense reminds us of where we once were. It also being in chronological order of Paul reiterating his main points he is addressing here we can easily see this is the man of Romans 7.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
The man of Romans 7 was very aware of his sinfulness, but could not find the way to overcome, leaving him to wanting to be free from the body of flesh that was dragging him down.

Romans 6:22 and 23;But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. By being made free from sin by obeying the form of doctrine delivered us, Faith, And being justified by the blood of Christ, and being taken out of Adam and placed in Christ by that faith, we have been crucified with Christ and are now dead to sin, we now have freedom to walk in righteousness unto holiness by walking in the Spirit and the end is eternal life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[HankD]

I am not sure what you mean by flesh nature but I can tell you that no believer has two natures. No one once born again practices sin.

A believer has power to sin or not to sin.

The flesh nature provides the ability to sin and rebel against God.
Out of the flesh rises lust which, if we allow, ripens into a definable sin.

Jesus even equated this desire as the sin itself (i.e. looking with lust).

It would seem that no one with a pure spiritual nature devoid of the flesh and its influence has the ability to either lust or sin.

Scripture indicates that the flesh (or at least its power) is still within us even after the rebirth:

Romans 6

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.​

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Why this commandment from scripture if we are not still influenced by our flesh?​

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.​

Or this one:​

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

These scripture are to believers.

I know you want to overlook the specifics of the grammar and look at such passages with a different perspective (but unsuitable IMO).​

Therefore, my question still remains FAL, granted we have the Spirit of God indwelling us and restraining us, granted we cannot practice unrestrained sin, what is the source and where does this ability and power to sin come from in the believer who has an occassional stumble?

Thanks
HankD

 

[AresMan]

I am not sure what you mean by flesh nature but I can tell you that no believer has two natures. No one once born again practices sin.

Do you believe in sinless perfection?
Romans 7 is clearly a passage about the New Covenant (Romans 7:14,22 cf. 2 Corinthians 4:16; Jeremiah 31:31-34).

In the New Covenant, we realize that "the law is spiritual." We are not subject to ordinances, but we are subject to that aspect of the Law that is spiritual and is "the law of God after the inward man."

The fact that Paul expresses that he regards the (true) Law of God as good, holy, and spiritual, and himself as wretched demonstrates that this is about his present regenerate, but non-glorified self.

1 John 5:18 is not about the person of Paul in Romans 7. It is about an unregenerate person who does not see sin as evil and does not desire to be free from it. In the New Covenant, we always recognize that we are wretched because we do sin until we are glorified, and if not for the grace of God, we would be slaves to sin like the unregenerate. But, we thank God that He has given us the victory, and that "with the mind I myself serve the law of God." This, the unregenerate cannot do.

 

[The Biblicist]

It depends on what you mean by periods of time. if you mean months, weeks, days or even hours, of not walking or being ked of the spirit then the answer is no that does no happen. If you mean by periods of time sinning and then turning from the sin yes that happens but even that is not a daily thing and should not be for any born again believer especially if they have been saved for any period of time.
So no there is no extent of time (practice sin) where I sin. Nor is there for any believer as it is impossible. You do not have to look at a persons entire life and see if it was a 51 to 49 percent thing. Those who practice sin do it without shame. It is who they are. You will not be surprised when a lost person sins. You will be surprised when a true believer sins because it is so unlike them. In fact the believer will be shocked.


If you have not done so listen to this explanation on keeping the commandments and practicing sin. It is one of the best I have heard.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I wish you the best in your studies.

 

[freeatlast]

A believer has power to sin or not to sin.

The flesh nature provides the ability to sin and rebel against God.
Out of the flesh rises lust which, if we allow, ripens into a definable sin.

Jesus even equated this desire as the sin itself (i.e. looking with lust).

It would seem that no one with a pure spiritual nature devoid of the flesh and its influence has the ability to either lust or sin.

Scripture indicates that the flesh (or at least its power) is still within us even after the rebirth:

Romans 6

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.​

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Why this commandment from scripture if we are not still influenced by our flesh?​

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.​

Or this one:​

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.​

These scripture are to believers.

I know you want to overlook the specifics of the grammar and look at such passages with a different perspective (but unsuitable IMO).​

Therefore, my question still remains FAL, granted we have the Spirit of God indwelling us and restraining us, granted we cannot practice unrestrained sin, what is the source and where does this ability and power to sin come from in the believer who has an occassional stumble?

Thanks
HankD

To answer your question I would say it is free will, personal choice. If you try and blame it on the flesh then you need to come up with some way to cover the angles who fell (sinned) and who are spirits who have no flesh.


We do not sin because we are embodied with flesh. We sin as Christians because we choose to sin, but we are kept from any practice of sin 1John 3. For a lost person to sin they do what agrees with their nature although they can override it to a point. For a believer to sin they have to go against their nature although they can override it to a point as it is impossible for a believer to practice sin. All sin is a choice.

 

[freeatlast]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I wish you the best in your studies.

Thank you the discussion but I don't subscribe that saying "we agree that we disagree" because it suggests there is some virtue in disagreeing. The only virtue lies in truth and agreeing on it. I hold to this;
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

What I will agree with is this. Either you are wrong, or I am wrong, or we are both wrong.