Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23

[Romans7man]

I am evidently have trouble with posting and am trying something to see if it will clear it out. For some reason when I click on "quote" an older post that I have already answered keeps coming up. If you have ever had this problem and know how to fix it, please do tell.

 

[freeatlast]

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

My understanding is that God has given every man a measure of faith and grace (Rom. 12:4,7) and Christian growth is a process of maturing.

When he says, "whereto we have already attained" his is talking about where we are currently at in our Christian maturity.

When he says, "let us walk by the same rule" his referring to the rule set forth in verses 12-14.

When he says, "let us mind the same thing" he is referring to verse 15 where the term "minded" is introduced. Those who have reached a mature status (little children, young men, fathers) realize they are not perfect but need to press on to the mark and forgett the failures as they press forward.

That is my take on it. Nothing technical just a general commentary. I hope to be growing throughout my Christian life and growth includes correction and progress, so I am not above correction either.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Paul is not saying once we are saved we cannot live above sin. Look at this in light of the previous verses;
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended;
He is saying he has not become perfect through the flesh. which is what some were proposing.
but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind

He is referring back to verses 7,8, and 9 showing that the deeds of the flesh are dung if used to justify ourselves.

and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

What do you think that mark is? Well let me tell you!

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We have attained perfection through Christ positionally. Now we are to walk by that same rule seeking that in our lives. While we are not saved through the flesh, once we are saved we are to seek to live in the same calling we have been positionally place. Without sin! God never tells us to do our best, or a little sin is acceptable. He is calling His children to live sinless and He has given us everything we need to carry that out.
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

2Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 

[Romans7man]

I believe that! However, that does not change reality of our condition and God sees our reality just as much as God sees us POSITIONALLY in Christ. Neither contradict the other but your position makes them contradict each other.

As I stated earlier, The scriptures give us three tenses in our salvation, Are saved, are being saved, and shall be saved. So I have no problem with what you are saying about it being "personally or positionally", but we are to see it as a whole. I would like to say we are just splitting hairs here, but the subject at hand is Romans 7. You are seeing it as a saved man whereas I see it as a lost man. The problem is, because it is so far removed from Romans 1:18-3:20 you are not seeing the connection. It is not a progression of a believer, but Paul making a comparison of how the Jew believed one is saved and how we are actually saved.
You are seeing Romans 7 in the line of chronological order of the believer. I am going to start another thread to show you how Paul thought on these same lines. It will be coming up soon and it is out of Ephesians.

If I want to EXPERIENCE PERSONAL victory over sin in my life I MUST "reckon" myself dead to sin "in Christ" and depend on the Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh (Rom. 8:12-13). However, the fact that I must still depend on the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the flesh" demonstrates my actual CONDITION is not equal to my POSITION in Christ.

The term "mortify" is PRESENT TENSE, ACTIVE INDICATIVE and thus something you must continue to do rather than something already once done and completed in the past.

You are using the word "mortify" as "put to death", but the word mortify is not put to death, it is more at, To give no power to or give no strength to. It goes along with the word "yield". It's not the Holy Spirit that mortifies, but we are to mortify the deeds of the flesh.
If we happened up on an wreck where a person was not killed, but only in a state of shock to the point to where they could not speak, we would say they were mortified, not put to death. So really the term mortify is more of a not doing something than doing. Like yielding, we don't yield to our members, but to the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
But this is not really important to the subject at hand, so lets move on.

 

[JesusFan]

First you did not answer my question. Second you are twisting what Paul is saying. He is combatting those who put their trust in the flesh and even though he has a greater reason to put trust in the flesh then most men he says he counts it dung.

He is not saying we can live above sin. He is saying that those who seek to do so to get right with God are wasting their time. Paul is not making a joke. He is stating a fact and not denying that God has given us all we need to live without sinning.

What is this passage saying?
1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Perhaps we have everything we need to not sin?

the Apostle paul had the SAME sin priciple still living in him after his rebirth, call it Flesh/sin nature, still residing within us, and that get finally removed at glorification...

Until then, MUST reckon ourselves as being deasd to that old nature, and rely upon HS and His empowering, and have the Lord in and through us enabling us to overcome the flesh, as we are in Christ...

still a conscous choice each believer has to daily make, as we can get into a position where we are sinning, and even alowing Satan to gain a foothold in our lives!

ALl power to potential live as we shouldm but will still sin, that NOT resolved until final state of glorification!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are using the word "mortify" as "put to death", but the word mortify is not put to death, it is more at, To give no power to or give no strength to.

The word "mortify" translates the term "thanato" does in fact mean put to death. It does not mean "to give no power to or give not strenth to." It is the common ordinary word for "death" in Greek.

 

[freeatlast]

the Apostle paul had the SAME sin priciple still living in him after his rebirth, call it Flesh/sin nature, still residing within us, and that get finally removed at glorification...

Until then, MUST reckon ourselves as being deasd to that old nature, and rely upon HS and His empowering, and have the Lord in and through us enabling us to overcome the flesh, as we are in Christ...

still a conscous choice each believer has to daily make, as we can get into a position where we are sinning, and even alowing Satan to gain a foothold in our lives!

ALl power to potential live as we shouldm but will still sin, that NOT resolved until final state of glorification!

Not according to Paul he didn't.
Ro 6:6,7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Just remember nor everyone who claims or thinks they are saved are.

 

[Greektim]

Not according to Paul he didn't.
Ro 6:6,7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Just remember nor everyone who claims or thinks they are saved are.

That's the thing, besides the present tense verbs of ch 7, chs. 6 & 8 uses the same verbage and language which makes it too difficult to see 7 as a saved person.

 

[freeatlast]

That's the thing, besides the present tense verbs of ch 7, chs. 6 & 8 uses the same verbage and language which makes it too difficult to see 7 as a saved person.

What does that mean?