Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23

[freeatlast]

Here is where you whole theory breaks down. Instead of dealing with this actual and real problem you simply brush it off and go on as though it does not ACTUALLY and REALLY describe your present reality in time and space.

You in reality do sin and you in reaity do die. Hence, sin in regard to its presence and power IN YOUR OWN LIFE in time and space has not been removed by the cross and won't be until your are glorified. THAT IS YOUR REALITY whether you like or not or admit it or not and that is the archilles heel of your whole theory. You are no more free from the presence and power of sin right now in time and space as your are actually and really already "seated in heavenly places." You POSITIONALLY are in heaven "in Christ" and you POSITIONALLY have died with Christ at the Cross.

In other words this is all hypothetical, correct? By the way You have never heard me say I don't sin. So what in the world are you talking about?

 

[The Biblicist]

In other words this is all hypothetical, correct? By the way You have never heard me say I don't sin. So what in the world are you talking about?

I am not surprised you cannot understand what I said even though I have repeated over and over again and spelled it out clearly.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not surprised you cannot understand what I said even though I have repeated over and over again and spelled it out clearly.

Not trying to be ugly here, as I do understand what you are saying. That is the problem. Honestly I was hoping you would see what you are saying.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am not surprised you cannot understand what I said even though I have repeated over and over again and spelled it out clearly.

It isnt only you brother ....and here is what you start doing after a while...:BangHead:

 

[Romans7man]

If that were remotely true, I wouldn't be using God's Word to make my points but simply giving you my personal observations. Get real!

Not a problem. We both are reading God's word, we are just not having a meeting of the mind. Perhaps we will before it's over. I am sorry that it takes me a little time to get back, I am a truck driver and have to make trips, so I can only catch up when I get home.

No, you are in denial of your own reality while confusing two equally Biblical truths. Let's deal first with your own reailty. Are you sinless? If reality is that all your sins have been taken care of completely and fully then you should be sinless. Will you escape death? If sin and all of its power has been taken care of completely at the cross in regard to your reality then you should never suffer PHYSICAL death.

I'm not sure exactly how or why this keeps coming up."Are you sinless?" What does this have to do with anything I said?

So obviously, that is not your reality is it? You are not sinless. You are suffering consequences of sin (aging, disease) and you will physically die won't you?? So my reality is your reality.

My dying has nothing to do with anything I have done. Adam brought death on man, not me.

Now, let's talk about God's reality. God sees things from three different perspectives. First he sees us as we really are - still unfinished and in the process of becoming transformed to the image of Christ. Second, He sees us how we will become after glorification due to his purpose. Third, he sees us POSITIONALLY in Christ.

Romans 7 introduces our LEGAL position in Christ in regard to the Law. In Christ we are dead to sin, positionally we are already "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST Jesus." However, that is not our current PERSONAL reality is it?

The Bible does give us three tenses of salvation. We are saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved, so I am in agreement with you here. This is God's reality, and it becomes our reality by faith.

Now lets take a look at your abuse of Scriptures:
Note the word "reckon"! That word would be unnecessary if you were actually dead to sin in regard to your own person in time and space reality. Just as it would be silly to tell Christians to "put on the new man" or "put off the old man" if that had no actual practical application to their reality as persons in time and place.

I'm just curious as to how you understand the word "reckon"? It is an accounting word that means to count it as a fact. So when we are told to reckon ourselves dead, that is a fact. I would say God's fact is more real than mine.

About this putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Where you see this as something that we must do, scripture sees it as something that has already been done, past tense.
Colossians 3:9 and 10;

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Also we see the "old man- new man" in Ephesians 4:20-24. That is all one sentence. The first two verses set the tenses as past. So Paul is not telling us of something we need to do, but he is reminding the reader of something that has already happened, so live like it.

Again, as I have already brought up, The "old man" is crucified with Christ. That is a past event that has never ceased.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not sure exactly how or why this keeps coming up."Are you sinless?" What does this have to do with anything I said?

If you were "dead" to sin in the absolute sense, then you would never sin at all at any time. Something "dead" has no activity, no power, no influence, no control, no presence, and no existence as it is buried with Christ.

My dying has nothing to do with anything I have done. Adam brought death on man, not me.

To the contrary, your dying is a process including sickness, aging, decaying, all of which show the presence and power of sin in your person.

I'm just curious as to how you understand the word "reckon"? It is an accounting word that means to count it as a fact. So when we are told to reckon ourselves dead, that is a fact. I would say God's fact is more real than mine.

I understand it exactly how it is used in imputation of Christ's righteousness to the "ungodly." The ungodly is to "reckon" himself righteous because he is righteous in regard to his POSITION "in Christ" by faith. That does change the fact that personally he is still "ungodly" by the standard of the law but justification before God has to do with his POSITION "in Chrst" by faith.

In regard to progressive sanctification we are to "reckon" ourselves "dead" to sin because we are "dead" to sin in regard to our POSITION "in Christ" just as we are already "seated in heavenly places in Christ." That does not change the fact that in our own person we are very much alive to the presence and power of sin. However, God imparts power to overcome sin as we experientailly "walk as we received the Lord Jesus Christ" by faith, reckoning ourselves "dead" to sin "in Christ." In other words, we are walk or live by faith according to our POSITION in Christ and by so doing God imparts power to overcome sin.

 

[freeatlast]

, God imparts power to overcome sin as we experientailly "walk as we received the Lord Jesus Christ" by faith, reckoning ourselves "dead" to sin "in Christ." In other words, we are walk or live by faith according to our POSITION in Christ and by so doing God imparts power to overcome sin.

If I may. Using what you said does God impart enough power to us for us to live with no sin at all?

 

[The Biblicist]

If I may. Using what you said does God impart enough power to us for us to live with no sin at all?

No! That is called glorification.

 

[freeatlast]

No! That is called glorification.

So throughout scripture we are being told not to sin but we do not have the ability to carry out the command? I don't think so!

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

The Lord has given us all we need to not sin. We just choose not to follow it.

 

[freeatlast]

Can you see into the heart of anyone? No! So how do you tell the difference between the true beleiver and the false professing beleiver? You cannot make any direct charge so you set forth principles in a hypthetical fashion and "IF" they fit they fit and "IF" they don't they don't. People who fit these principles are people who profess but do not possess.

Yes we can see the heart through their actions. Jesus said;
Matt 15:18,19 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Those who practice sinning are lost. Romans 7 is dealing with a person who knows the law and also knows about Christ, but is trying to stay in the law and claim Christ. Thus the battle. Paul is explaining what they are feeling and experiencing by putting himself in the first person. Then he tells them who will set them free, Jesus Christ. It is a plea to come all the way to Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

So throughout scripture we are being told not to sin but we do not have the ability to carry out the command? I don't think so!

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

The Lord has given us all we need to not sin. We just choose not to follow it.

Did you read where Paul cracked a joke about people like you who think they can live above sin?

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He first claims he is not living above sin - perfect = sinless perfection
He then claims there are some that "be perfect" = mature
He then makes a joke of those who are "otherwise minded" than what he teaches -
"God shall reveal even this unto you"

He often uses our spouse to reveal to us. If you think you can or have reached sinless perfection just ask that person's spouse about it:laugh:

 

[Romans7man]

If you were "dead" to sin in the absolute sense, then you would never sin at all at any time. Something "dead" has no activity, no power, no influence, no control, no presence, and no existence as it is buried with Christ.

What is absolute? What you see or what God sees? Again, I say you are walking by sight and not by faith.
By the same faith that initially saved us, we are to reckon ourselves "dead to sin."
Romans 6:7;For he that is dead is freed from sin. That is a statement of logic, from Paul. Here Paul is counting it as a fact and he is telling us to count it as a fact.

To the contrary, your dying is a process including sickness, aging, decaying, all of which show the presence and power of sin in your person.

This is dealing with Romans 5. Many use this to show that we sinned when Adam sinned, but that is not the case.

To say our dying and sickness is because of what we did (sinned) when Adam sinned is never followed up with the logic that would have to follow. Our salvation is not what Christ did for us, but what we do. (Now some may go along with that, but I'm not into works salvation.) Our dying has nothing to do with anything we do, but has everything to do with what Adam did. And not just what Adam did, but the results of Adam being put out of the garden. Remember Adam was put out of the garden, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever.
So our salvation comes because of our being in Christ, not because of what we do, but because of what Christ did for us. Before, our dying was a result of our being in Adam, just as Romans 5 indicates. Adam was our head/covering and now Christ is our head/covering/atonement. That is what Romans 7:1-3 is about. The first husband is dead and the woman (our spirit) is free to marry another, Christ. It about, Who you are in!

I understand it exactly how it is used in imputation of Christ's righteousness to the "ungodly." The ungodly is to "reckon" himself righteous because he is righteous in regard to his POSITION "in Christ" by faith. That does change the fact that personally he is still "ungodly" by the standard of the law but justification before God has to do with his POSITION "in Christ" by faith.

In regard to progressive sanctification we are to "reckon" ourselves "dead" to sin because we are "dead" to sin in regard to our POSITION "in Christ" just as we are already "seated in heavenly places in Christ." That does not change the fact that in our own person we are very much alive to the presence and power of sin. However, God imparts power to overcome sin as we experientailly "walk as we received the Lord Jesus Christ" by faith, reckoning ourselves "dead" to sin "in Christ." In other words, we are walk or live by faith according to our POSITION in Christ and by so doing God imparts power to overcome sin.

The power to overcome sin has already been established. Because of everything that has already happened, our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ, we are free from sin.

We are justified because of what Christ did for us and because we are now in Christ.
We are free from the power of sin because, the body, the flesh, the old man "IS" dead.
Sin comes at us through the flesh, that is why sin no longer has control over the believer, because it is dead. You are not arguing with me if you don't believe it, you are arguing with God. God said it is dead, so that settles it for me. It's not up to me to see it, it's just up to me whether to believe God and walk in that truth or not believe God and walk after the flesh and if I walk after the flesh I will fall into sin.

The flesh is not my main focus as it once was, God is my main focus. God will satisfy the "needs" of the flesh in a way that does not lead to sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

What is absolute? What you see or what God sees? Again, I say you are walking by sight and not by faith.

I just explained absolute in the most graphic and comprehensive terms. Read it again.

By the same faith that initially saved us, we are to reckon ourselves "dead to sin."
Romans 6:7;For he that is dead is freed from sin. That is a statement of logic, from Paul. Here Paul is counting it as a fact and he is telling us to count it as a fact.

The Greek term translated "freed" here is the same identical term repeatedly translated "justified" in the previous chapters. He is talking about our LEGAL POSITION in Christ not our PERSONAL CONDITION.

This is dealing with Romans 5. Many use this to show that we sinned when Adam sinned, but that is not the case.

To say our dying and sickness is because of what we did (sinned) when Adam sinned is never followed up with the logic that would have to follow. Our salvation is not what Christ did for us, but what we do.

The context makes it clear that BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many were made sinners. Adam represented us in that act of sin just as Christ represented us by his obedience. And we are "dead to sin" BY REPRESENTATION in Christ when He died not by our PERSONAL CONDITION any more than we PERSONALLY sinned in the garden. However, the sin nature with all of its consequences - condemnation and death were "passed" on to everyone of his posterity because they were all LITERALLY in him as one comprehensived undivided human nature, genetically and all.

You do not understand the difference between POSITIONAL death to sin and righteousness to God by Christ and PERSONAL death to sin and righteous to Go by the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

 

[Romans7man]

Did you read where Paul cracked a joke about people like you who think they can live above sin?

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He first claims he is not living above sin - perfect = sinless perfection
He then claims there are some that "be perfect" = mature
He then makes a joke of those who are "otherwise minded" than what he teaches -
"God shall reveal even this unto you"

He often uses our spouse to reveal to us. If you think you can or have reached sinless perfection just ask that person's spouse about it:laugh:

Philippians 3:16;Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

I don't think Paul was saying he had not yet attained, but rather we are to live as though we had not yet attained. In other words we are not to be puffed up because we have attained, because if we do get puffed up we can get to the point that we think we are above sin and then comes the fall.

Peter actually covers this this in 2 Peter.

 

[The Biblicist]

Philippians 3:16;Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

I don't think Paul was saying he had not yet attained, but rather we are to live as though we had not yet attained. In other words we are not to be puffed up because we have attained, because if we do get puffed up we can get to the point that we think we are above sin and then comes the fall.

Peter actually covers this this in 2 Peter.

Amazing! Paul says what he says but you completely reverse what he says and because of what you "think" not because of what he actually said!

"whereunto we attain" refers to where we are in our Christian growth. He plainly says what He has not attained "already am perfect" and he further reinforces that by claiming he still is pressing toward that mark of perfection, proving he had not attained it.

If a person interpreted the scriptures the way you do, then black could mean white and male could mean female.

 

[Romans7man]

I just explained absolute in the most graphic and comprehensive terms. Read it again.
"If you were "dead" to sin in the absolute sense, then you would never sin at all at any time. Something "dead" has no activity, no power, no influence, no control, no presence, and no existence as it is buried with Christ."

And that is how we are to see it!

The Greek term translated "freed" here is the same identical term repeatedly translated "justified" in the previous chapters. He is talking about our LEGAL POSITION in Christ not our PERSONAL CONDITION.

You do not understand the difference between POSITIONAL death to sin and righteousness to God by Christ and PERSONAL death to sin and righteousness to God by the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

I understand what you are saying. But we are to see it as God sees it, as a fact of history, by faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

And that is how we are to see it!

You ask what I meant by "absolute" and what more can I say?



I understand what you are saying. But we are to see it as God sees it, as a fact of history, by faith.

I believe that! However, that does not change reality of our condition and God sees our reality just as much as God sees us POSITIONALLY in Christ. Neither contradict the other but your position makes them contradict each other.

If I want to EXPERIENCE PERSONAL victory over sin in my life I MUST "reckon" myself dead to sin "in Christ" and depend on the Spirit to mortify the deeds of the flesh (Rom. 8:12-13). However, the fact that I must still depend on the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the flesh" demonstrates my actual CONDITION is not equal to my POSITION in Christ.

The term "mortify" is PRESENT TENSE, ACTIVE INDICATIVE and thus something you must continue to do rather than something already once done and completed in the past.

 

[Romans7man]

Hey, I'm not above correction. What is your interpretation of Philippians 3:16?

 

[The Biblicist]

Hey, I'm not above correction. What is your interpretation of Philippians 3:16?

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

My understanding is that God has given every man a measure of faith and grace (Rom. 12:4,7) and Christian growth is a process of maturing.

When he says, "whereto we have already attained" his is talking about where we are currently at in our Christian maturity.

When he says, "let us walk by the same rule" his referring to the rule set forth in verses 12-14.

When he says, "let us mind the same thing" he is referring to verse 15 where the term "minded" is introduced. Those who have reached a mature status (little children, young men, fathers) realize they are not perfect but need to press on to the mark and forgett the failures as they press forward.

That is my take on it. Nothing technical just a general commentary. I hope to be growing throughout my Christian life and growth includes correction and progress, so I am not above correction either.

 

[freeatlast]

Did you read where Paul cracked a joke about people like you who think they can live above sin?

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He first claims he is not living above sin - perfect = sinless perfection
He then claims there are some that "be perfect" = mature
He then makes a joke of those who are "otherwise minded" than what he teaches -
"God shall reveal even this unto you"

He often uses our spouse to reveal to us. If you think you can or have reached sinless perfection just ask that person's spouse about it:laugh:

First you did not answer my question. Second you are twisting what Paul is saying. He is combatting those who put their trust in the flesh and even though he has a greater reason to put trust in the flesh then most men he says he counts it dung.

He is not saying we can live above sin. He is saying that those who seek to do so to get right with God are wasting their time. Paul is not making a joke. He is stating a fact and not denying that God has given us all we need to live without sinning.

What is this passage saying?
1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Perhaps we have everything we need to not sin?