Romans 7, understanding Romans 7 from Ephesians chapter 2.

No, you guys are doing great. Keep going. :thumbs:

 

I have learned already from both of you. I may need some adjusting of my views before this is over. What I do not desire to do is keep you and Jerry from conversing on every point, because that is where I learn. I will chime in no doubt. :thumbs:

 

I do not think that these verses are speaking about Paul's sin which he spoke of at Romans 7:7-10 because according to him that sin brought spiritual death.

Now to another point. Paul asks a questtion as to how he will be delivered from his problem concerning his sinning:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Ro.7:24).

In answering the question which he himself asked he demonstrates that his problem remains the same and this problem is in effect at the time when he is a believer:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:25).

I believe that he is thanking God for the knowledge of the Lord Jesus because it is that knowledge that enables him to "serve the law of God."

I do not see how his thankfulness to God can be understood in any other way than being thankful for allowing him to "serve the law of God."

Then after stating the problem every new believer faces he immediately speaks of the Christian's walk and and explains exactly how to overcome sin and to fulfill the law:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Ro.8:1-5).

I cannot see how the last part of chapter 7 can possibly be separated from the first part of chapter 8. Especially since chapter 7 is speaking about the same exact problem which confronts those who are new in Christ.

 

I am thinking. Duty calls.

 

With that in mind let us look at the words which follow:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then (ara) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:24-25).

The Greek word ara means: "It intimates that, 'under these circumstances something either is so or becomes so" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore Paul is saying that in some sense it is "through Jesus Christ" that enables him to "serve the law."

Therefore since Paul speaks of serving the law "with his mind" he is speaking of his experiences after being saved. And verses earlier in the chapter also speak of "the law of his mind" so this verse must also be in regard to his experiences while he was saved:

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Ro.7:23).

With that in mind the two preceding verses must also be speaking about Paul when he was already saved:

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:" (Ro.7:21-22).

So I see nothing that even hints that these verses are speaking of someone who is not yet saved.

 

HP: Because he addresses this in the first person does not necessarily mean that such was his condition as a believer. In illustration, a preacher often can inject himself in the first person when in reality such is not at the time the case. I am not saying that your idea is outside of the realm of possibilities, I am just saying he could have said it referring to ones state as a sinner. He is speaking to others in their condition. It is often wise when speaking to others to speak in the first person so as to show you are relating to their problems without pointing a direct finger at them personally. I could say it is easy to fall prey to sin, when in fact one might find just the opposite true in their life. Speaking to struggling believers the first person may be the most effective way to relate to their present condition. In the case of Paul in Romans 7:24, right now I am leaning to such an interpretation. Certainly I am free to change my mind as God reveals new light.

 

The point I am making is in regard to what Paul says here which can leave no doubt that the "serving the law of God" and the "serving the law of sin" is in regard to the behavior of a believer:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then (ara) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:24-25).

The Greek word ara means: "It intimates that, 'under these circumstances something either is so or becomes so" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore Paul is saying that in some sense it is "through Jesus Christ" that enables him to "serve the law."

Do you agree with that?

 

How could it be about chapter 7 in its entirety since you recognize that Romans 7:24 is about Paul after he was saved. I believe that I made a good case that Romans 7:21-25 must be in regard to the saved and not the unsaved.

Can you point out any errors which I made in post #28?

 

HP: Jerry you are addressing a portion of the text where Paul is looking in retrospect in the first part of that verse to what he now views as a wretched state of man. He is reflecting upon the state of a lost man that understands what he should do but has no power to do it. He asked the question who can deliver him from the body of this death? He interjects the notion that victory through Jesus Christ the Lord is the way to victory, and then returns directly back to the state of a lost man who he was addressing primarily up until that point.

The words 'so then" I believe are words directing our attention back to the original problem as to the life of an unbeliever under condemnation and is not saying that what he mentions following is the practical life of one that has found victory over sin. He interjects in the middle of this verse that he clearly knows who can deliver man from that state, but that is no certain indication that everything said following is describing the state of one who has gained that victory. If what you are indicating, by how I am understanding you, is true, how do you rectify that position with the victory over sin and being made 'free from sin, particularly in chapters 6 & 8? Serving the law of God with the mind but serving the law of sin in the flesh (an indication of the actual deeds done in the flesh) is no indication of victory over sin, would you think?

One could be preaching about the sinfulness of sin and interject into his thoughts being portrayed the cure for sin, and then return to the former topic being addressed of the sinfulness of man could he not? Could not one inject a "Praise the Lord we know where the victory is found!" and immediately return to the context of a lost man under conviction just discussed? Because one says "so then" it in no way insinuates that everything that follows is addressing the cure to sin just mentioned or one in a state of salvation that should be experience the freedom from sin of chapter 6.

If the latter portion of Romans 7: 24-25 is addressing the life of Paul as a believer in reality, he was indeed a most confused writer. How could one possibly understand the freedom from sin in chapter 6 to correlate with the obvious competing notions of the last portion of Chapter seven verse 25, or the very first portion of chapter 8? Would not that be paramount to suggesting that the normal life of the believer's actions are at and direct antipodes to the faith they profess to hold, that is freedom from sin found in Chapters 6&8? What practical good is Christianity or the life of a Christian if in fact there is no freedom from sin 'in the flesh,' or if a Christian is still under bondage to follow the law of sin in the flesh?

Jerry I wouldn't for a minute believe that that verse in Romans seven actually depicts his experience as a believer being made free from sin, and yet only serving God in his mind and not in the actions carried out by the flesh. The two are competing and contrary notions. That might represent the state of a backslider under conviction and self deception, but not one in a right standing before God.

That being said, I am open for new light. If I misinterpreted you, forgive me and explain how I did.

 

Look at the first verse immediately following the verses the last verses of chapter 7. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." How can one be 'in Christ Jesus' and be serving the law of sin in the flesh? Again were up against a stark contradiction between verses 24 and 25 of chapter 7, and the first verse of chapter 8, if we are to interpret verse 25 of chapter 7 as being Paul's experience as a believer.

Verse 2 in chapter 8. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath "made me free from" the law of sin and death." Here again if the walk of a believer is described in verse 25 of chapter 7, serving the law of sin in the flesh, where is the freedom from the law of sin and death that Paul describes here in verse two of chapter 8?

 

Every time a Christian sins it can be said that he is serving the law of sin in the flesh.

How are we made free from the law of sin and death?

By knowing that sin no longer has power over us:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Ro.6:14).

The Greek word kyrieuō is translated “dominion” and that word means "to have power over...Ro. vi. 14" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Even though we now know that sin no longer has power over us we also are seen being entagled by the law of sin when we fail to walk after the Spirit. Here Paul is addressing believers and he makes it known that they can indeed "live after the flesh":

"...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:13).

We are to walk in newness of life and when we walk after the Spirit then the life of Jesus will be made manifest in our mortal flesh:

"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:10-11).

When we are walking in the Spirit then we are putting to death the deeds of the body and then the life of Jesus will be manifest in our mortal flesh. But if we begin to walk after the flesh that life will die.

"...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:13).

 

HP: I would say that every time he does, until he repents, he is placing his salvation in jeopardy, and certainly not experiencing the 'freedom from sin" the Apostle Paul; spoke concerning.

HP: Any unsaved or backslidden person can have the 'knowledge' you suggest. That does not indicate freedom from sin. Knowledge is one thing, practice yet another.

HP: Sin indeed has dominion over us if we are yielding our members in accordance to it.

HP: I say that clearly shows ones standing with God in clear peril when one sins.

HP: Amen. When we walk in the light and obedience we are not sinning nor coming under the condemnation of the law of sin.

HP: Once again showing that when the life of Christ is manifest in us it will also be manifest in the deeds we commit.

HP: That death spoken of will eventually lead if persisted in to none other than separation from God, i.e., death. There is no separation as some see between what they are positionally and what they are in practice. Faith without actions in accordance to their faith is dead, and dead faith will save no one in the end.

 

HP,

I said:

Even though we now know that sin no longer has power over us we also are seen being entagled by the law of sin when we fail to walk after the Spirit. Here Paul is addressing believers and he makes it known that they can indeed "live after the flesh":

"...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:13).

To this you say:

We are not discussing the "eternal security" of a Christian but instead whether or not a Christian can serve the law of sin. You said:

I say that these words demonstrate that a Christian can indeed serve the law of sin:

"...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:13).

By those words can we not understand that Paul certainly understood that a Christian can serve the law of sin?

I say "yes" so what is said here by Paul are speaking of his experience as a believer:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Ro.7:25).

 

HP: Certainly one that is 'professing' to be a believer, but in the end, apart from sincere repentance and a change of heart, such a one will die, be separated from God.

HP: I would disagree. Paul was not inferring that he or anyone else should experience this remark as a believer for the reasons in my former post....not at least apart from sincere repentance, if one in the end desires to be found 'in Christ' in that day.

 

HP,

I said:

"...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8:13).

By those words can we not understand that Paul certainly understood that a Christian can serve the law of sin?

To which you replied:

When we look at the context we can see that those who are addressed by the pronoun "ye" in the verse in question also are said to have received have received the Spirit of adoption:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Ro.8:13-15).

There can be no doubt that "believers" are in view here since it is only believers who have "received the Spirit of adoption."

Are you still of the mind that Paul's words at Romans 8:13 are speaking of the unsaved?