Romans 8:28-30

[percho]

I hope this helps. No, I am not a "universalist, but I do think that those who die and go to hell, did have a chance for heaven before dying. They just refused Him, when He called.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Speaking of universalist ponder this. Are we to take the following in bold literal?
Gen. 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; Remember this thread from the other forum "Hundreds of Billions Of Galazies" How many grains of sand and how many stars? Then Gal. 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How many would that leave for lost?

Just some food for thought.

 

[convicted1]

Tom, the answer is yes. How? Through creation, through the drawing of the Holy Spirit that Christ promised, though any manner you can think of and some we can't, all men are commanded to believe, therefore there must be some God appointed way for men to accomplish that command.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

All men have a soul/spirit, so God gives them understanding, but not all will take advantage of this understanding, IMHO.

Willis, I don't have time to quote but two points I want to make from what you have written:

1) Don't forget that scripture often has multiple applications, so while you may be correct in thinking that Jesus was speaking to the Jews of the time, it may also be correct to apply those scriptures to ourselves.

John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Look closely at this verse right here. Jesus stated that every one which seeth the Sonand believeth on Him, may have eternal life. I truly believe that Jesus was talking "in the now"(meaning in His days here on earth), when He spoke this. Have any of us seen Him? I haven't, but I believe with everything in me, He will raise me up in His likeness when He comes to gather His Bride!!

2) Somewhere, you asked how we become "conformed to Satan". We are conformed to Satan by default. Adam was made in God's image, but when he disobeyed, he lost all of his spiritual God image and became like Satan. All of after start from that default "child of Satan" position. (even so, God provided a way for reconciliation and an ability to believe if we only will)

What I was getting at, is that if they were to be conformed in Christ from eternity past(decreed so by God), then those who He passes over, who are they conformed to? I understand your statement, and that we came from the cursed ground(our flesh), but our soul came from God. So our flesh is cursed from the start because of our being made from the cursed ground. However, our soul came directly from God, and the curse wasn't placed in us until after we "we knew to do good, but did it not, and to us, it was sin."

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Willis, I agree with you in part here, but for a different reason.

I am thankful, Bro. Tom, that we can agree, at least, in part.

You, and many others, believe that someway, somehow, everybody has been exposed to the gospel. You have proposed the way you think that happened, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Correct. There are some that may never-ever-hear the gospel through a preacher, but I do think that God will speak to all who "come to know to do good, and doeth it not."

I, too, believe that they are without excuse, for two reasons. One, they have the evidence of a Creator from the creation, and turned their back on that evidence. But they cannot be held to account for rejecting Jesus Christ, of whom they have never heard.

To me, hearing is the qualifier, here. As I have stated in previous posts, one can go to church their whole life, and hear the gospel message preached. But if God doesn't open their eyes, they will not understand. Now, God can talk to someone, and a preacher isn't anywhere around, and they truly understand what He states, when He states it. The thing that makes me scratch my head in this, is that I thought my DoG Brethern would actually agree with me on this. I think that God can save outside the gospel, meaning, God can save someone without a preacher being present. Like I stated, I thought more would be in agreement with me, but......

I simply think the evidence is that there are many who have never heard the gospel or of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, Paul would not have had to go on his missionary journeys. Remember, in Athens, when he preached in the marketplace, the philosophers said this was new stuff, and invited him to come to Mars Hill to hear more about this Jesus and the resurrection.

And some did believe what Paul preached to them. Look, in reality, God really doesn't need us to accomplish His will. He is God, and can do anything He chooses to do, except He can't lie. For whatever reason, He chose man to do His will, such as preach the gospel, comfort those who have lost loved ones, visit those who are in the hospital, nursing homes, the "shut-ins", etc. If God wanted to, He could have picked "Israel" right up out of Egypt, and placed them in the "promised man". But, for whatever reason, He chose Moses to lead them out, by His hand.

So how can they be condemned? From Romans 1 and 2, I take that they are "a law unto themselves." That is, they have a moral code of some kind, but cannot even live up to their own code. That will be the basis of judgment against them. And they will acknowledge that the judgment is just.

Bro. Tom, they are condemned solely by unbelief. They failed to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those which diligently seek Him(Heb. 11:6). I think they were presented the gospel(whether through preaching or directly from God talking to them via the Spirit) and failed to believe, whereas, I guess you believe God passed over them and left them in their already condemned state(is this correct, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Brother)?

That's my take. We agree on the result, but not the way we get to the result.

You know, Bro. Tom, in the end, it will be all over. Then we'll get to look at our KING!!! I am ready to go, praise His sweet name!! I can't wait to lay my crown at my Master's feet, and thank Him for what He did for one little lost lamb.

Here I am, Lord here I am,
I am the one the Father left the fold to find.
There were ninety and nine,
And He left the fold to find.
One little lost lamb,
And Lord here I am!!

I am the one the Master went to find, and when He found me, He put me up on His shoulders, carried me back, and placed me in the fold!!! And those already in the fold, didn't "buck up" at me. They welcomed me in with open arms!!! I want to go home, Lord!!!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Tom Butler]

Willis, your view is very close to Hardshellism, but not quite. Our Primitive Baptist brothers believe that God can save independently of the gospel--that is, God will save his elect whether they ever hear the gospel or not.

You believe that God may save without ever hearing the gospel, but hold that those who have not heard it preached have been exposed to it by the Holy Spirit.

If you are correct, then I have to ask why we send missionaries; why we evangelize. Why did Jesus give us his Great Commission?

Paul says it pleased God to save those that believe through the foolishness of preaching. Can you square I Cor 1:21 with your view?

Now, I do understand, I think, why you hold this view. God commands all men everywhere to repent, but how can they repent without hearing the gospel? So, if I understand you, it would be unfair of God to condemn for unbelief if they had never heard. Therefore, all must have heard, some way, somehow.

I understand your view, but I still like mine, based on Romans 1-2.

By the way, my view does not come from being a DoG. But it is consistent with DoG.

 

[Skandelon]

Van and Convicted1,

I just read through this thread and wanted to chime in on this point. While I agree with Van in principle, I must take issue with this particular point. The historical context is essential in understanding the intent of the author. While I think ALL SCRIPTURE is applicable to us and "timeless" in that manner, I disagree with the assertion that what is true of the Jews at that time in history is true of all humanity from birth.

The Jews, Jesus' audience in John 6, is being judicially hardened, or blinded from the gospel's truth (John 12:39-41). They weren't born that way, they grew hardened/calloused over a period of time in rebellion to God's revelation.

Those from Israel that the "father gave to the son" is most likely in reference to the 12 apostles which he goes on to specifically address later in the chapter...remember the only ones who don't abandon him? This idea is supported when you read John 17 and see how Jesus speaks of his handpicked apostles.

See, the GOSPEL is means God has chosen to draw/invite/appeal mankind to Himself for reconciliation. That GOSPEL is being hidden during this time and it is ONLY after Christ is lifted up that he sends the gospel to "every creature" thus "drawing all men to Himself." Until that time God has hardened Israel except for the few he selected and gave to the Son to be trained to be the messengers of this gospel to the rest of the world.

Van, I wanted to make sure you saw this reply and see if it clarified my view on the subject.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, your view is very close to Hardshellism, but not quite. Our Primitive Baptist brothers believe that God can save independently of the gospel--that is, God will save his elect whether they ever hear the gospel or not.

Bro. Tom, God's power is THE Gospel, and THE Gospel is God's power unto salvation.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

It takes God to remove the veil from our eyes to see our lost condition. It takes God to talk to the "inner man", and through this talk, He gives him/her understanding, that without Him, they will die lost. Just because He talks to His creation, doesn't mean they will listen and obey Him. But He does show us that we are lost without Him.

You believe that God may save without ever hearing the gospel, but hold that those who have not heard it preached have been exposed to it by the Holy Spirit.

Correct. I know many on here may not agree with my position on this subject, but I do believe I have supported it with scriptures.

If you are correct, then I have to ask why we send missionaries; why we evangelize. Why did Jesus give us his Great Commission?

I have never stated, nor even insinuated that this is the only way God saves His creation. That is why they send missioniaries, and why we evangelize, etc. A dear old friend of mine told me his conversion story one time. He has since went to be with the Lord a little over a year ago. He said he was going through his yard one day, with a bucket in each hand. God came and showed him his lost condition. He said he threw his buckets down, and hit his knees, and prayed, and God saved him right there. He lived for the Lord for over thirty years, if I remember correctly. That right there is a great example of THE Gospel saving someone.

Paul says it pleased God to save those that believe through the foolishness of preaching. Can you square I Cor 1:21 with your view?

Again, Bro. Tom, I didn't say this is the only way God saves.

Now, I do understand, I think, why you hold this view. God commands all men everywhere to repent, but how can they repent without hearing the gospel? So, if I understand you, it would be unfair of God to condemn for unbelief if they had never heard. Therefore, all must have heard, some way, somehow.

Here is a better question, Bro. Tom. How can they "hear", except God enlightens their minds to comprehend, their ears to truly hear, and open their eyes to see their lost condition? They can hear ten million sermons, and if God doesn't give them understanding, they will not understand one word of what was preached. So, in essence, they can hear the "gospel" and/or THE Gospel, and die lost. One must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him(Heb. 11:6).

I understand your view, but I still like mine, based on Romans 1-2.

Well, obviously, I like mine better!! LOL :tongue3:

By the way, my view does not come from being a DoG. But it is consistent with DoG.

Though I am in no way a "hardsheller", I can see where this can be misconstrued with DoG doctrine. I just can not comprehend where He would command all men everywhere to repent, and then not afford them the time, and or place to do so. Even as wicked as Jezebel was, He gave her time to repent of her evil deeds. So someone in a remote place of the world, I truly believe, will be given the opportunity to repent, whether its through Him showing them directly, or through the preaching of the Gospel.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[The Archangel]

I think that God can save outside the gospel, meaning, God can save someone without a preacher being present. Like I stated, I thought more would be in agreement with me, but......

I don't want to wreck the vibe that you and Tom have going, but I felt it necessary to address this.

We do not believe anyone will be saved outside of the Gospel.

Can someone be saved without a "preacher being present?" That depends. Is that person reading the Bible? Is that person reading a tract? Is that person reading a letter from a friend pleading with him to trust Christ?

In all the above cases, we believe that person can be saved because the agent behind the writing becomes, in effect, the preacher.

However, what we categorically reject and deny is this: A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has never heard the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ.

If we were to take the example of the man on a desert island (and some of these facts are pretty far-fetched, but bear with me): A toddler of 2 years old survives a shipwreck and washes up on an island where there are no human inhabitants (and is raised by wolves or pigs or something...). Will he be saved?

The answer is a resounding no.

However, if God, in His sovereign providence, has a plane crash and the sole survivor of that plane crash is a Christian who swims to the island and shares the gospel with the man, then yes, he can be saved.

If God in His sovereign providence has a plane drop a Bible (and the means to learn how to read) to the island and the man learns how to read, reads the Bible, and believes in the God of the Bible (Christ), can he be saved? Yes.

What cannot happen is this: Salvation without the Gospel (in any form). The means of bringing Christ to non-believers is the Gospel. No Gospel? No former non-believers.

When Paul writes "how will they hear without a preacher..." the Greek requires the implied answer of "they won't." So a preacher--of the Gospel of Jesus Christ--is absolutely required. That preaching may be in word, print, digital audio, etc. But the preaching must be present.

There is no salvation outside of Christ and there is no belief in Christ without the Gospel.

The Archangel

 

[Allan]

I don't want to wreck the vibe that you and Tom have going, but I felt it necessary to address this.

We do not believe anyone will be saved outside of the Gospel.

Can someone be saved without a "preacher being present?" That depends. Is that person reading the Bible? Is that person reading a tract? Is that person reading a letter from a friend pleading with him to trust Christ?

In all the above cases, we believe that person can be saved because the agent behind the writing becomes, in effect, the preacher.

However, what we categorically reject and deny is this: A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has never heard the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ.

If we were to take the example of the man on a desert island (and some of these facts are pretty far-fetched, but bear with me): A toddler of 2 years old survives a shipwreck and washes up on an island where there are no human inhabitants (and is raised by wolves or pigs or something...). Will he be saved?

The answer is a resounding no.

However, if God, in His sovereign providence, has a plane crash and the sole survivor of that plane crash is a Christian who swims to the island and shares the gospel with the man, then yes, he can be saved.

If God in His sovereign providence has a plane drop a Bible (and the means to learn how to read) to the island and the man learns how to read, reads the Bible, and believes in the God of the Bible (Christ), can he be saved? Yes.

What cannot happen is this: Salvation without the Gospel (in any form). The means of bringing Christ to non-believers is the Gospel. No Gospel? No former non-believers.

When Paul writes "how will they hear without a preacher..." the Greek requires the implied answer of "they won't." So a preacher--of the Gospel of Jesus Christ--is absolutely required. That preaching may be in word, print, digital audio, etc. But the preaching must be present.

There is no salvation outside of Christ and there is no belief in Christ without the Gospel.

The Archangel

Amen Arch.. This non-cal stands behind his brother on this one

Also, if a person has heard the gospel previously, and years later end up on that island mentioned by Archangel, God can bring back to his memory those words and through that, be saved. But apart from faith in Christ Jesus, there is no salvation.

There in no other name, given among men whereby we must be saved.

 

[The Archangel]

Amen Arch.. This non-cal stands behind his brother on this one

Also, if a person has heard the gospel previously, and years later end up on that island mentioned by Archangel, God can bring back to his memory those words and through that, be saved. But apart from faith in Christ Jesus, there is no salvation.

There in no other name, given among men whereby we must be saved.

Amen and Amen. (One "amen" would have been fine...but it wasn't 10 characters).

The Archangel

 

[percho]

I don't want to wreck the vibe that you and Tom have going, but I felt it necessary to address this.

We do not believe anyone will be saved outside of the Gospel.

Can someone be saved without a "preacher being present?" That depends. Is that person reading the Bible? Is that person reading a tract? Is that person reading a letter from a friend pleading with him to trust Christ?

In all the above cases, we believe that person can be saved because the agent behind the writing becomes, in effect, the preacher.

However, what we categorically reject and deny is this: A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has never heard the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ.

If we were to take the example of the man on a desert island (and some of these facts are pretty far-fetched, but bear with me): A toddler of 2 years old survives a shipwreck and washes up on an island where there are no human inhabitants (and is raised by wolves or pigs or something...). Will he be saved?

The answer is a resounding no.

However, if God, in His sovereign providence, has a plane crash and the sole survivor of that plane crash is a Christian who swims to the island and shares the gospel with the man, then yes, he can be saved.

If God in His sovereign providence has a plane drop a Bible (and the means to learn how to read) to the island and the man learns how to read, reads the Bible, and believes in the God of the Bible (Christ), can he be saved? Yes.

What cannot happen is this: Salvation without the Gospel (in any form). The means of bringing Christ to non-believers is the Gospel. No Gospel? No former non-believers.

When Paul writes "how will they hear without a preacher..." the Greek requires the implied answer of "they won't." So a preacher--of the Gospel of Jesus Christ--is absolutely required. That preaching may be in word, print, digital audio, etc. But the preaching must be present.

There is no salvation outside of Christ and there is no belief in Christ without the Gospel.

The Archangel

Why would this 2 year old who is raised by pigs and somehow lived until he was lets say 33 years old and drowned fishing be any different that the 1 year old dying and going to heaven?

 

[The Archangel]

Why would this 2 year old who is raised by pigs and somehow lived until he was lets say 33 years old and drowned fishing be any different that the 1 year old dying and going to heaven?

There is no difference.

Now before you and others ask, I believe there is a chance that babies who die do go to heaven. This is based on, primarily, David's expectation to see his son (who died as a result of the sin with Bathsheba). Now, it is possible that David was saying that He was going to see him and by this he meant that he was going to the place of the dead where his son was (ie. not heaven).

But, we know that the man on the island (in the example) has no hope of salvation because he is not believing in the Gospel. With the one-year old, there is the slightest glimmer of hope--because of things we find in the Bible (like David and his son).

In either case, we must trust that the Lord will always do what is right, which He always does--even if that offends our fallen sense of fairness.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't want to wreck the vibe that you and Tom have going, but I felt it necessary to address this.

We do not believe anyone will be saved outside of the Gospel.

Can someone be saved without a "preacher being present?" That depends. Is that person reading the Bible? Is that person reading a tract? Is that person reading a letter from a friend pleading with him to trust Christ?

In all the above cases, we believe that person can be saved because the agent behind the writing becomes, in effect, the preacher.

However, what we categorically reject and deny is this: A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has never heard the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ.

If we were to take the example of the man on a desert island (and some of these facts are pretty far-fetched, but bear with me): A toddler of 2 years old survives a shipwreck and washes up on an island where there are no human inhabitants (and is raised by wolves or pigs or something...). Will he be saved?

The answer is a resounding no.

However, if God, in His sovereign providence, has a plane crash and the sole survivor of that plane crash is a Christian who swims to the island and shares the gospel with the man, then yes, he can be saved.

If God in His sovereign providence has a plane drop a Bible (and the means to learn how to read) to the island and the man learns how to read, reads the Bible, and believes in the God of the Bible (Christ), can he be saved? Yes.

What cannot happen is this: Salvation without the Gospel (in any form). The means of bringing Christ to non-believers is the Gospel. No Gospel? No former non-believers.

When Paul writes "how will they hear without a preacher..." the Greek requires the implied answer of "they won't." So a preacher--of the Gospel of Jesus Christ--is absolutely required. That preaching may be in word, print, digital audio, etc. But the preaching must be present.

There is no salvation outside of Christ and there is no belief in Christ without the Gospel.

The Archangel

Another good post...reminds me of this from the 1689....on effectual calling
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[convicted1]

I don't want to wreck the vibe that you and Tom have going, but I felt it necessary to address this.

That's fine, Brother!! I like to hear all sides and what they have to say on any given subject!! :thumbs:

We do not believe anyone will be saved outside of the Gospel.

I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with this statement!!! When God reveals Himself to someone, that is THE Gospel right there!! Whether they hear it from a God-called preacher, or directly from Him!! Either way, He is behind it.

Can someone be saved without a "preacher being present?" That depends. Is that person reading the Bible? Is that person reading a tract? Is that person reading a letter from a friend pleading with him to trust Christ?

When the Lord came to me and showed me lost, ruined, undone, bound for a devil's hell, without Him, there was no preacher present....there was no choir singing, "Just as I am", etc. I was on a schoolbus, heading home, minding my own business, when He caused me to see how vile I was. When the Lord saved me, I was standing in the hospital lab where I worked at, and again, there was no preacher present, no invitation from a preacher, no choir singing, "Just as I am", etc. I had been going to church, wanting to be saved, but I didn't know how. When I turned it ALL over to Him, He took over my life!!

In all the above cases, we believe that person can be saved because the agent behind the writing becomes, in effect, the preacher.

No, dear Brother, no. The Agent behind the writing is God. No matter how good the sermon, unless God opens the eyes, ears, and heart, it will not add up to a hill of beans.

However, what we categorically reject and deny is this: A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has never heard the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ.

Well then, the deaf/mute is born destined for hell, then. In this scenario, the baby got thrown out with the bath water.

If we were to take the example of the man on a desert island (and some of these facts are pretty far-fetched, but bear with me): A toddler of 2 years old survives a shipwreck and washes up on an island where there are no human inhabitants (and is raised by wolves or pigs or something...). Will he be saved?

The answer is a resounding no.

In this far-fetched scenario, this two year old dies, and goes to be with the Lord!!

However, if God, in His sovereign providence, has a plane crash and the sole survivor of that plane crash is a Christian who swims to the island and shares the gospel with the man, then yes, he can be saved.

I completely agree!!

If God in His sovereign providence has a plane drop a Bible (and the means to learn how to read) to the island and the man learns how to read, reads the Bible, and believes in the God of the Bible (Christ), can he be saved? Yes.

You are putting too much faith in man and not in God with these scenarios, Brother. I agree with Romans 10:17, but the revelation of that hearing of the gospel comes from God, and not man. Our faith is bestowed to us by our Creator, and not the creation.

What cannot happen is this: Salvation without the Gospel (in any form). The means of bringing Christ to non-believers is the Gospel. No Gospel? No former non-believers.


When Paul writes "how will they hear without a preacher..." the Greek requires the implied answer of "they won't." So a preacher--of the Gospel of Jesus Christ--is absolutely required. That preaching may be in word, print, digital audio, etc. But the preaching must be present.

Again, a lot of emphasis on man, and not enough on God. Y'all state the sovereignity of God, and then turn right around, and say that to be saved, they MUST HEAR a preacher!! Sounds like a "man exhalting" doctrine there, Brother Archangel.

There is no salvation outside of Christ and there is no belief in Christ without the Gospel.

(((((AMEN!!!!!))))) Romans 1:16


I am sure you will disagree with a lot of this post, but I do enjoy the civil posts we have with each other. I pray that none of these responses seem to be "snippy", because that is not my intent, Brother!! Love you!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[The Archangel]

When the Lord came to me and showed me lost, ruined, undone, bound for a devil's hell, without Him, there was no preacher present....there was no choir singing, "Just as I am", etc. I was on a schoolbus, heading home, minding my own business, when He caused me to see how vile I was. When the Lord saved me, I was standing in the hospital lab where I worked at, and again, there was no preacher present, no invitation from a preacher, no choir singing, "Just as I am", etc. I had been going to church, wanting to be saved, but I didn't know how. When I turned it ALL over to Him, He took over my life!!

Yes, I can see your experience here. However, as you stated, you were going to church. There was some exposure to Christ and the Gospel. Your conversion did not happen in a vacuum in which the Gospel was not present.

It could be--and probably was--that the seed of the Gospel was planted by a preacher or teacher or reading a tract or some similar thing and that was brought to mind by the Spirit and you were converted.

Again, it isn't like you had never heard of Christ or the Gospel before.

No, dear Brother, no. The Agent behind the writing is God. No matter how good the sermon, unless God opens the eyes, ears, and heart, it will not add up to a hill of beans.

I agree. But you have misunderstood me. There must be a human agent involved (ie. a "preacher"). Whether that "preaching" takes the form of a written text, a preached word, or whatever, there is a human conveying the truth and substance of the Gospel in some form or another.

Certainly God opens the eyes, ears, and heart. Certainly that is the only way the Gospel will be received. But, the Gospel part of the equation is given by man--either in print or word...in some form or another.

Well then, the deaf/mute is born destined for hell, then. In this scenario, the baby got thrown out with the bath water.

You are not seeing the figurative use of the verb "heard." We might as well say: "A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has no knowledge of the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ." (change in italics)

The deaf/mute can be saved if the Gospel is presented to him or her. Hellen Keller could be introduced to Christ--gaining knowledge of Him--and through that "hearing" of Christ and the Gospel--believe.

What we are getting at, though, is that the Native American of AD 1000 did not "hear" the Gospel or know Christ and, therefore, could not be saved.

You are putting too much faith in man and not in God with these scenarios, Brother. I agree with Romans 10:17, but the revelation of that hearing of the gospel comes from God, and not man. Our faith is bestowed to us by our Creator, and not the creation.

Again, a lot of emphasis on man, and not enough on God. Y'all state the sovereignity of God, and then turn right around, and say that to be saved, they MUST HEAR a preacher!! Sounds like a "man exhalting" doctrine there, Brother Archangel.

Again, I fear you have misunderstood. There is an emphasis on man. Man is to take the Gospel. That is the only means God has left Himself for the dissemination of the Gospel--man. This is precisely why Paul asks the rhetorical question "how will they hear without a preacher?" The implied answer is, again, "they won't."

God, for whatever reason, has not given it to Himself to share the Gospel. He merely uses the human-shared Gospel to save people. Humans must share the Gospel, otherwise, no one will be saved.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

Yes, I can see your experience here. However, as you stated, you were going to church. There was some exposure to Christ and the Gospel. Your conversion did not happen in a vacuum in which the Gospel was not present.

It could be--and probably was--that the seed of the Gospel was planted by a preacher or teacher or reading a tract or some similar thing and that was brought to mind by the Spirit and you were converted.

Again, it isn't like you had never heard of Christ or the Gospel before.

Look, Brother, I never stated that my belief was the only way God saves, but I do think He has saved many without the assistance of man.

I agree. But you have misunderstood me. There must be a human agent involved (ie. a "preacher"). Whether that "preaching" takes the form of a written text, a preached word, or whatever, there is a human conveying the truth and substance of the Gospel in some form or another.

Certainly God opens the eyes, ears, and heart. Certainly that is the only way the Gospel will be received. But, the Gospel part of the equation is given by man--either in print or word...in some form or another.

No, Brother, I never misunderstood you. I have read on here MANY TIMES that God doesn't need any help from us, in order for Him to save. Now, it's being purported that without a preacher, you can't?? This makes God a synergist in your example, Brother Archangel. I am a synergist, FTR. But meaning that we have to answer the "call" when He calls, and without us accepting the gift, He will leave us in our lost state.

You are not seeing the figurative use of the verb "heard." We might as well say: "A man can be saved when he has never heard of Jesus Christ, when he has no knowledge of the Gospel, and when he has never trusted Christ." (change in italics)

The deaf/mute can be saved if the Gospel is presented to him or her. Hellen Keller could be introduced to Christ--gaining knowledge of Him--and through that "hearing" of Christ and the Gospel--believe.

The deaf/mute only way of hearing the gospel, is directly from Him. They can not hear what the preacher says, but I know that in some places, there is someone there "signing" what the preacher is saying.

What we are getting at, though, is that the Native American of AD 1000 did not "hear" the Gospel or know Christ and, therefore, could not be saved.

Now, we are starting to make some headway, finally!! Read your history books. The native americans did believe in an afterlife. When they killed an animal, they would leave their heart there, thinking they would roam the woods in their spirit. I don't know if they believed in God, but it kinda looks like they did. They believed in the "happy hunting ground", and I don't see how they could have "conjured" that up all by their lonesome.

Again, I fear you have misunderstood. There is an emphasis on man. Man is to take the Gospel. That is the only means God has left Himself for the dissemination of the Gospel--man. This is precisely why Paul asks the rhetorical question "how will they hear without a preacher?" The implied answer is, again, "they won't."

God, for whatever reason, has not given it to Himself to share the Gospel. He merely uses the human-shared Gospel to save people. Humans must share the Gospel, otherwise, no one will be saved.

The Archangel

I am intriqued(sp?) by this bolded statement you made here, Brother. When God comes to His creation, and shows them their lost condition, and without Him, they will die lost, He just shared the gospel with them at that very moment. I believe in "going into all nations and preaching the gospel", but to confine God to saving in that mode only, shortchanges His power, glory, effacious grace, etc. I guess we will agree to disagree. Love you Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Bump!!! To keep this ball rolling!!

 

[Old Union Brother]

One question for everyone: (If this has been addressed excuse me)

Where is the 2 legged preacher in this scripture?

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[convicted1]

One question for everyone: (If this has been addressed excuse me)

Where is the 2 legged preacher in this scripture?

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I am also waiting to hear someone reply to this. There is not one man out there than can preach on his own. They must have God speak through them, if they preach anything of value, whatsoever.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Boy, time, and God, made a change in me.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Will a mod/admin please move this thread to the Cal/Arm forum?