Romans 8:28-30

[SovereignGrace]

The title of this thread was supposed to be Romans 8:28-30, can a mod correct this for me??

Disclaimer for my DoG Brethern; I am directing this question towards my FW Brethern, but feel free to join in. The reason why I am directing it this way is because I know y'all will disagree with this analysis, but I don't know if my FW Brethern will agree or disagree with this. I am not 100% dogmatic about this, but the more I study this out, the more I "lean" this way!!


Rom. 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now, here's where it gets "sticky". The more I read this in light of other scriptures, this is what I am coming up with. Notice that in all this, Paul states that whom He forknew, He conformed to the image of His Son. Nowhere does Paul write He "was not going to confrom some to the image of His Son"; meaning that God didn't "unelect" certain individuals. What I am trying to get at is this: I can not find anywhere where "predestination" was directed to "doomed" individuals that would HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE HE DID NOT CHOOSE THEM FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Now, lets take a look at this text in John Chapter 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, Jesus was talking to unbelieving Jew here. If you take a very close look at the text of this passage, I truly believe that Jesus is talking about those who "come unto me", while He was here on earth. Meaning that the Jews had their eyes blinded and their hearing dulled by God, so that Jesus would be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!" So, in essence(sp?), Jesus was talking of those who would come to Him, as those who were there at the same time Jesus was, and not something that would be carried over in the same way as He did here on earth.

Here is a passage to back this up:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now here in John 12, Jesus states that "if I be lifted up", He will draw all men. He is talking about after He is to be slain, that this will take place. In John 4, He states that all the Father gives Him, will come unto Him. So, I can see a contrast in the way He is talking. Only certain ones could come to Him at that time, because if all the Jews would have believed He was the Messiah, they would not have crucified Him. After His death, burial, and resurrection, He is now drawing all men unto Him, but not all will come.

The "marrow" of the point I am trying to make is this; I truly believe that when God predestinated someone/anyone, it was for good, and not predestination for something bad. I believe the Disciples, Paul, Moses and Aaron, all the major and minor prophets, etc, were predestinated to accomplish His will.

In Romans 8:28-30, it does not state that He predestinated the "others" to be conformed to the image of Satan. To make that "bible jump", is unbiblical. God chose us IN CHRIST and not apart from Christ. I know this may come off confusing to some, so if y'all need any clarification, let me know, I will try to make it clearer. Please accept my apology for the way this is worded. What I type, and what I actually want to type, are all too often different. It's hard to put things in word correctly through a keyboard.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Boy, I may need to go into the "witness protection program" now!! GULP!! LOL

Dude, your theology is off the rails big time. Plus, you're a mystic.

Oh wait...

 

[SovereignGrace]

After re-reading this thread....

God, THANK YOU for opening my eyes to my previous errors.

I was a theological train wreck, weren't I?

 

[Iconoclast]

After re-reading this thread....

God, THANK YOU for opening my eyes to my previous errors.

I was a theological train wreck, weren't I?

Willis,
Like many others you were at first taught the positions held by natural men who attempt to come to truth.
In trying to defend what you were taught was truth, you were honest enough to rethink many issues when your positions were challenged.
After a good deal of conflict,and questioning,God allowed His truth to crack that shell of religious error like you were a humpy dumpty semi peligian.
Once a definitive crack took place,all.of Satan's horses and all of his men, could not put humpty together again,lol.....skan,winman,webdog,dhk,Robert snow,sag38,diamond lady, and others.....all gone!!!

 

[percho]

Willis,
Like many others you were at first taught the positions held by natural men who attempt to come to truth.
In trying to defend what you were taught was truth, you were honest enough to rethink many issues when your positions were challenged.
After a good deal of conflict,and questioning,God allowed His truth to crack that shell of religious error like you were a humpy dumpty semi peligian.
Once a definitive crack took place,all.of Satan's horses and all of his men, could not put humpty together again,lol.....skan,winman,webdog,dhk,Robert snow,sag38,diamond lady, and others.....all gone!!!

Personally, I miss them. Love interaction.

 

[MennoSota]

Willis,
Like many others you were at first taught the positions held by natural men who attempt to come to truth.
In trying to defend what you were taught was truth, you were honest enough to rethink many issues when your positions were challenged.
After a good deal of conflict,and questioning,God allowed His truth to crack that shell of religious error like you were a humpy dumpty semi peligian.
Once a definitive crack took place,all.of Satan's horses and all of his men, could not put humpty together again,lol.....skan,winman,webdog,dhk,Robert snow,sag38,diamond lady, and others.....all gone!!!

Great analogy. Indeed God's word will take a former semi-pelagian like myself and bring him to his knees as the fullness of God's grace is revealed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Personally, I miss them. Love interaction.

They are welcome to come back. We are still able to interact here.
I think they did not like having to explain what we questioned them on.
When God got a hold of Willis, and Amy G.,and a few others they were quite disturbed...but one by one Willis answered to them...head on ,verse by verse

 

[SovereignGrace]

They are welcome to come back. We are still able to interact here.
I think they did not like having to explain what we questioned them on.

When pressed hard enough, their theology falls apart at the seems.

All you have to do is look at all the heretical teachings that have come from those who hold to universal atonement, free will, limited depravity, conditional election, &c.

Arianism-Jesus is not God, but the Son of God. He is lesser than His Father. Impugns the triune Godhead.
Modalism-God is three manifestations, and not three distinct persons. Another heresy that impugns the triune Godhead.
Antinomianism-The Law is not applicable to believing Christians today.
Universalism-All will eventually saved with none but Satan and his minions going to hell.
Pelagianism-Original Sin is not applicable to anyone other than Adam. We did not inherit it from Adam, even though we're his posterity. Also, man can come to God w/o any divine assistance from God. They tried to clean this up and all they did was slightly improve it and called it Semi-Pelagianism. Both are heresies.
Docetism-Belief that Jesus' body and crucifixion were only illusions. Held to by the gnostics.
Nestorianism: Belief that Jesus Christ was a natural union between the Flesh and the Word, thus not identical, to the divine Son of God.
Molinism-This is the 'middle knowledge' heresy.

I know that not every Non-Cal holds to these, but you can see it was from the Non-Cal camp that these heresies sprang from.

Then there's the two separate messages, where Paul had one message for the Gentiles and Peter had one for the Jews. Then there's this belief that everybody has heard the gospel. If that's so, then, being a Missionary Baptist, I can stop giving my cash to missions, as they are useless, seeing everybody has heard the gospel. Then there's the teaching that regeneration did not occur until after the Christ's resurrection. Sadly, I once held to this heresy. Then there's this ideology that the God on the left side of the bible acts differently than the God on the right. As Brother Voddie Baucham said, "Read Revelation. He's the same God on the right as He is on the left."

And I could go on and on and on and on...

 

[kyredneck]

Dont' sell yourself short. It seems clear enough what you are saying.

You are saying that the elect are predestined to be saved, but the non-elect are not predestined at all. Right? It's an oldy but a goody - whether or not predestination is "double".

Ah, I miss J.D.. How I refrained from posting before on this thread, I don't know, but the OP epitomizes the ones I hold the most respect for, that is those that think outside the box and exercise their right to private judgement and search the scriptures to see if these things be so. Doesn't matter if they're in error on some things, I respect their trying and having the courage to bring it to the board. Kudos to you Brother Willis for doing your homework and sharing it with us.

 

[Calv1]

The title of this thread was supposed to be Romans 8:28-30, can a mod correct this for me??

Disclaimer for my DoG Brethern; I am directing this question towards my FW Brethern, but feel free to join in. The reason why I am directing it this way is because I know y'all will disagree with this analysis, but I don't know if my FW Brethern will agree or disagree with this. I am not 100% dogmatic about this, but the more I study this out, the more I "lean" this way!!


Rom. 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now, here's where it gets "sticky". The more I read this in light of other scriptures, this is what I am coming up with. Notice that in all this, Paul states that whom He forknew, He conformed to the image of His Son. Nowhere does Paul write He "was not going to confrom some to the image of His Son"; meaning that God didn't "unelect" certain individuals. What I am trying to get at is this: I can not find anywhere where "predestination" was directed to "doomed" individuals that would HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE HE DID NOT CHOOSE THEM FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Now, lets take a look at this text in John Chapter 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, Jesus was talking to unbelieving Jew here. If you take a very close look at the text of this passage, I truly believe that Jesus is talking about those who "come unto me", while He was here on earth. Meaning that the Jews had their eyes blinded and their hearing dulled by God, so that Jesus would be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!" So, in essence(sp?), Jesus was talking of those who would come to Him, as those who were there at the same time Jesus was, and not something that would be carried over in the same way as He did here on earth.

Here is a passage to back this up:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now here in John 12, Jesus states that "if I be lifted up", He will draw all men. He is talking about after He is to be slain, that this will take place. In John 4, He states that all the Father gives Him, will come unto Him. So, I can see a contrast in the way He is talking. Only certain ones could come to Him at that time, because if all the Jews would have believed He was the Messiah, they would not have crucified Him. After His death, burial, and resurrection, He is now drawing all men unto Him, but not all will come.

The "marrow" of the point I am trying to make is this; I truly believe that when God predestinated someone/anyone, it was for good, and not predestination for something bad. I believe the Disciples, Paul, Moses and Aaron, all the major and minor prophets, etc, were predestinated to accomplish His will.

In Romans 8:28-30, it does not state that He predestinated the "others" to be conformed to the image of Satan. To make that "bible jump", is unbiblical. God chose us IN CHRIST and not apart from Christ. I know this may come off confusing to some, so if y'all need any clarification, let me know, I will try to make it clearer. Please accept my apology for the way this is worded. What I type, and what I actually want to type, are all too often different. It's hard to put things in word correctly through a keyboard.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Boy, I may need to go into the "witness protection program" now!! GULP!! LOL

BROTHER, come on! We're ALREADY in the image, well that term is introduced by you, Christ says those that are not of God are CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL, did you read that part? "Before you were children of the devil", it's all through, so God doesn't have to make us children of the devil, we by nature are, You need to study deeper brother, looks like you're trying.

And "No where does it say God makes them bad" or something, again you need to read, "He spoke in parables so others would NOT understand, as Isaiah said He gave them eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, that they might come and I heal them". Or Isaiah again "Oh Lord why have you hardened our hearts so we fear you not", or "He gave them a spirit of stupor, that they may not see or hear". So it's ALL THROUGH SCRIPTURE BROTHER.

Find a good Reformed Teacher, stay off these forums people here don't know much, listen to Dr. James White debate Arminians, and you'll get a GREAT PICTURE of the truth, you hear the greatest Arminian arguments and White destroy each and everyone of them

Please keep pushing, don't give in to your own senses, don't trust in traditions, if you really want the truth leave all of those out and step out in FAITH, don't say "well if this is that, then that must be this", just take God's word flat out, believe it all and He'll open your eyes, I fought doctrines of Grace much more fiercely than others on this forum and the truth beat me. Once you get into that "Holy Ground" is so freeing to know God is Father, we are Children, and He does all He pleases with us. Pagan King Nebuchadnezzar knew of God's sovereignty, it's 2017 with plenty of resources online, don't let a pagan kind have greater understanding than yourself

 

[SovereignGrace]

BROTHER, come on! We're ALREADY in the image, well that term is introduced by you, Christ says those that are not of God are CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL, did you read that part? "Before you were children of the devil", it's all through, so God doesn't have to make us children of the devil, we by nature are, You need to study deeper brother, looks like you're trying.

And "No where does it say God makes them bad" or something, again you need to read, "He spoke in parables so others would NOT understand, as Isaiah said He gave them eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, that they might come and I heal them". Or Isaiah again "Oh Lord why have you hardened our hearts so we fear you not", or "He gave them a spirit of stupor, that they may not see or hear". So it's ALL THROUGH SCRIPTURE BROTHER.

Find a good Reformed Teacher, stay off these forums people here don't know much, listen to Dr. James White debate Arminians, and you'll get a GREAT PICTURE of the truth, you hear the greatest Arminian arguments and White destroy each and everyone of them

Please keep pushing, don't give in to your own senses, don't trust in traditions, if you really want the truth leave all of those out and step out in FAITH, don't say "well if this is that, then that must be this", just take God's word flat out, believe it all and He'll open your eyes, I fought doctrines of Grace much more fiercely than others on this forum and the truth beat me. Once you get into that "Holy Ground" is so freeing to know God is Father, we are Children, and He does all He pleases with us. Pagan King Nebuchadnezzar knew of God's sovereignty, it's 2017 with plenty of resources online, don't let a pagan kind have greater understanding than yourself

Brother, that was an old account of mine. Under the username it has 'guest'. I stumbled upon this looking at older threads and wanted to repost it to show ppl what God does to open an idiot's eyes like mine were.

Soli Deo Gloria