• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Romans 8:6.....What is it getting at.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Salty

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 930 pm EDT / 630 PDT
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
I will give you one from the beloved KJV

Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew is: "בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃"

which is literally, "In beginning He Created God namely the Heavens and the earth"

The noun,"השׁמים", is in the PLURAL number, meaning HEAVENS.

WHY did the KJV render the PLURAL Hebrew, as HEAVEN, in the SINGULAR?
Click to expand...
"Heaven and earth" is an English idiom meaning "everything" or "without limit" (as in "I will move heaven and earth to be there tomorrow"). So, the KJV is "guilty" of correctly rendering a Hebrew idiom into its English idiom equivalent.

[You do know that the Earth is not flat and covered by concentric domes, right?]
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
how many translations besides the KJV, translate HEAVEN?

Genesis 1:1 Parallel: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant.
Translating it "heavens" (plural) more accurately captures the original Hebrew and opens the reader to hints of other layers of truth lost by the English idiom. It is a decision of translator intent: subtlety vs clarity. Where you err is declaring one "wrong" when it merely different.

[12 ... just to answer your question.]
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Irrelevant.
Translating it "heavens" (plural) more accurately captures the original Hebrew and opens the reader to hints of other layers of truth lost by the English idiom. It is a decision of translator intent: subtlety vs clarity. Where you err is declaring one "wrong" when it merely had a different goal.

[Webster's 1833 translation does ... just to answer your question.]
Click to expand...

the majority don't!
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Irrelevant.
Translating it "heavens" (plural) more accurately captures the original Hebrew and opens the reader to hints of other layers of truth lost by the English idiom. It is a decision of translator intent: subtlety vs clarity. Where you err is declaring one "wrong" when it merely different.

[12 ... just to answer your question.]
Click to expand...

are you KJVO?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van said:
Too bad Calvinism denies:

God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (Paul)
Christ died as a ransom for all, including those never to be saved. (Paul and Peter)
The lost seek God. Romans 9 (Paul)
The lost know spiritual things like God's divine attributes. (Paul)

Ever wonder why the Calvinist posters deny their doctrine? (Because it is unbiblical nonsense)
Click to expand...
Still cannot welcome truth?
Need to invent your own ideas?
Where there is life there is hope. Maybe it will happen tomorrow.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
are you KJVO?
Click to expand...
No. I don't even particularly like the translation. I prefer NASB95 as my "go to", but I use lots of different translations ... different horses for different courses. On-line I often select whatever translation is most comfortable to the person I am communicating with. "It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools" ... the translation is just the "tool" at hand. Truth is Truth.

SavedByGrace said:
indeed, they know Hebrew grammar, which you seem to miss!
Click to expand...
Laugh. I may be weak in Hebrew grammar, but I have a mastery of English grammar that appears to elude you. So, I rely on the "many counselors" of the various experts in Hebrew grammar whose credentials dwarf yours and mine that were blessed by God to produce the MANY translations of scripture that I can turn to for guidance ... where my proficiency in English serves me well.

Why did 13 teams of translators, all masters of Hebrew, choose "heaven" over "heavens"? I find it enlightening that in your hubris, you do not even see any need to ask such a question ... for you know better than everyone what God really meant.

To such a position, my only reply is ... then publish and let your work be peer reviewed.
I am content with 500 years of translations to draw from and compare one against another. I have no need to "drink the kool-aid" of your Hebrew preeminence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rsr
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
That does not matter. When you argue against a person's theology you need to source what that person said of their theology - not what his opponents said about him.

Finney said that nobody is saved apart from God's work. Your arguments are hollow.

You say he was a free-will theologian and therefore a heretic. But free-will theology does NOT make one a heretic.
Click to expand...
No, not saying that a "free will" view is heresy, as there are many free willed Baptist churches, but Finney seemed to me to teach full pel. and that crosses the line!
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Not, not Pelagianism. The reason is he rejected the idea man could be saved apart from God, apart from the gospel message, and apart from a preacher (or witness) used by God to communicate the message.

Pelagianism, as I understand the concept, depends on man's innate "goodness" and an ability to choose good or salvation without the work of God.

I would call him more Arminian, but he was Reformed.

Think of Spurgeon. How did he say men are saved by God? He said men are typically saved through persuasion, God using men to persuade of the truth of the gospel.

I disagree with Charles Finny's theology, but I do not understand why you feel the need to make the man's theology worse than it really was. Even people with whom we disagree deserve to be treated fairly and in an honest manner.
Click to expand...
Here is a honest appraisal, quoting and using Finneys very words and beliefs!
A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing: How Charles Finney's Theology Ravaged the Evangelical Movement
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
Then Jesus died for the sins of ALL. The entire human race :Biggrin
Click to expand...
No.
He died for All The Father gave to Him, a great multitude of sinners worldwide.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
They are scattered worldwide.
All He died for will be saved.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top