Romans 8:6.....What is it getting at.

[Van]

Cinder block calls stone grey....

Note this poster almost never addresses the thread topic. Instead we get off topic snide remarks.

What does Romans 8:6 (or 8:7 or 8:27) actually say?

Romans 8:6
For the mind set G5427 on the flesh is death, but the mind set G5427 on the Spirit is life and peace,

Romans 8:7
because the mind set G5427 on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind set G5427 on the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

The above consistently translates "phronēma (G5427) and "ho" (G3588) as "mind set on the." The idea is if we place our minds on fleshly desires or spiritual things, the result is hostility toward God, or peace with God.

And the false doctrine taught by Calvinism is that the lost are unable to set their minds on any of the spiritual things. However, Paul teaches men of flesh (the lost) can understand and grasp spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

John 3:16 says everyone believing into Him will not perish. Thus God indicates the lost are able to believe, thus able to set their minds on gospel fundamentals. Those not yet born anew are not indwelt, so they cannot set their minds on their indwelt spirit, but can set their minds of some spiritual things, the fundamentals of the gospel. And of course, those that have been indwelt can set their minds on the Spirit, because they have become saints and Christ knows their mind set and intercedes for them.

 

[Van]

Perhaps you could actually address vs.6....that is what this thread is about.
Are you in agreement with the verses offered.Do you find the explanations helpful?
Did you take the time to read what was offered?
Many older writers took the time to be exhaustive in uncovering what a verse offered.They used the bible as a complete revelation for us to use to the max.

Yet another post addressing my behavior and ignoring my post (see post 61)

 

[Iconoclast]

1. SUCH a means is the preaching of the word itself. It is observed concerning many in the gospel, that they heard it willingly, received it with joy, and did many things gladly, upon the preaching of it; and we see the same thing exemplified in multitudes every day.

But none of these things can be without many thoughts in the minds of such persons about the spiritual things of the word; for they are the effects of such thoughts, and, being wrought in the minds of men, will produce more of the same nature: yet were they all hypocrites concerning whom these things are spoken, and were never spiritually minded.

The cause of this miscarriage is given us by our Savior, Matthew 13:20, 21, "He that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while."

The good thoughts they have proceed not from any principle in themselves. Neither their affections nor their thoughts of these things have any internal root whereon they should grow.

So is it with many who live under the present dispensation of the gospel. They have thoughts of spiritual things continually suggested unto them, and they do abide with them more or less, according as they are affected: for I speak not of them who are either despisers of what they hear, or wayside hearers, who understand nothing of what they hear,
and immediately lose all sense of it, all thoughts about it; but I speak of them who attend with some diligence, and receive the word with some joy. These insensibly grow in knowledge and understanding, and therefore cannot be without some thoughts of spiritual things. Howbeit for the most part they are, as was said, but like unto waters that run after a shower of rain. They pour out themselves, as if they proceeded from some strong, living spring, whereas indeed they have none at all. When once the waters of the shower are spent, their channel is dry, there is nothing in it but stones and dirt. When the doctrine of the word falls on such persons as showers of rain, it gives a course, sometimes greater, sometimes less, unto their thoughts towards spiritual things;

but they have not a well of water in them springing up into everlasting life.

Wherefore, after a while their minds are dried up from such thoughts; nothing remains in them but earth, and that perhaps foul and dirty.

It must be observed, that the best of men, the most holy and spiritually minded, may have, nay, ought to have, their thoughts of spiritual things excited, multiplied, and confirmed, by the preaching of the word. It is one end of its dispensation, one principal use of it in them by whom it is received. And it hath this effect two ways: —
(1.) As it is the spiritual food of the soul, whereby its principle of life and grace is maintained and strengthened. The more this is done, the more shall we thrive in being spiritually minded. (2.) As it adminstereth occasion unto the exercise of grace; for, proposing the proper object of faith, love, fear, trust, reverence, unto the soul, it draws forth all those graces into exercise

 

[JonC]

You believe the verse will teach us all by itself.
You are welcome to your view, but if you do not mind, we will take a look.

I have been thinking about this comment.

Here is the passage:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Is the passage really that difficult to grasp?

Does it not teach us all by itself?

What part of it does not make sense?

What more is needed to grasp this passage?


Do we really need an entire book on verse 6 to understand it's teaching?

 

[DaveXR650]

Do we really need an entire book on verse 6 to understand it's teaching?

You may not "need" an entire book to understand verse 6 but Owen's work, and a lot of the Puritan devotional writings tend to meditate on scriptures. David would spend time meditating on God's law. I don't think it was because he didn't understand it. This is something we can all benefit from nowadays. I think our modern world tends to value a quick understanding of a hard fact and the ability to spit back the "correct" response over really understanding something. But even so, there is still a lot in this passage that I think is difficult to understand. Can you discipline and thus make yourself set your mind on things of the spirit? How do you balance the need to do other things? How do you know when you are spiritually minded or fleshly minded? I think this is worth pursuing.

 

[JonC]

You may not "need" an entire book to understand verse 6 but Owen's work, and a lot of the Puritan devotional writings tend to meditate on scriptures. David would spend time meditating on God's law. I don't think it was because he didn't understand it. This is something we can all benefit from nowadays. I think our modern world tends to value a quick understanding of a hard fact and the ability to spit back the "correct" response over really understanding something. But even so, there is still a lot in this passage that I think is difficult to understand. Can you discipline and thus make yourself set your mind on things of the spirit? How do you balance the need to do other things? How do you know when you are spiritually minded or fleshly minded? I think this is worth pursuing.

Don't get me wrong, I like Owen. A lot of Puritian poetry is meditative as well. The Valley of Vision is outstanding.

But these are similar to praying the rosary. We are meditating on the prayers and understandings of other people, applying that to our lives. That does not mean it is bad.

Can you discipline and thus make yourself set your mind on things of the spirit?

Yes, by meditating on God's Word and disciplining the flesh.

How do you balance the need to do other things?

You don't. You incorporate this into your daily life. You walk in the Light in all things.

How do you know when you are spiritually minded or fleshly minded?

You love the brethern. You examine yourself, your interactions with other people. Are you "easily offended"? That is not walking in the Light. Are you "puffed up", do you insult others, do you seek strife, etc.? That is walking in the flesh.

What I'm getting at is it would do us all well to meditate on God's Word and "write" our own story. Each generation needs to do what John Owen did in applying Scripture. It is not a cognitive exercise but Christ living in us.

Have you noticed a disconnect between Romans 8:6 and some who seem otherwise devoted to Puritan writings? I have. I myself fail at times. But head knowledge about Scripture is meaningless unless it makes it to the heart.

 

[Iconoclast]

DaveXR650,

You may not "need" an entire book to understand verse 6 but Owen's work, and a lot of the Puritan devotional writings tend to meditate on scriptures. [/QUOTE]

Yes D 650, you are absolutely correct!
Not only Puritans and Reformers have learned the necessity to meditate on scriptures as part of a healthy and Holy routine.
Psalm 1 points to this;
Psalm 1
King James Version

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord;
and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

David would spend time meditating on God's law. I don't think it was because he didn't understand it.

Yes, of course. He did not disrespect scripture by just skimming over the surface, No he sort to understand the biblical meaning correctly, by comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual things

This is something we can all benefit from nowadays. I think our modern world tends to value a quick understanding of a hard fact and the ability to spit back the "correct" response over really understanding something

.

This is exactly why Godly pastors and teachers study to help give the correct sense of the verses.
God would not have given teachers, if everyone could just read scripture and get it.

But even so, there is still a lot in this passage that I think is difficult to understand.

When i first looked at the table of contents, i realized I had missed most of what the verse was communicating.

Can you discipline and thus make yourself set your mind on things of the spirit?

good question

How do you balance the need to do other things?

good question

How do you know when you are spiritually minded or fleshly minded? I think this is worth pursuing.

Certainly it is...what good is reading a verse without understanding it properly?

I doubt anyone here would or could take the time to draw from all over scripture to open this verse up as John Owen has done.

 

[JonC]

Going with the topic of the OP, maybe it would be good to look at how we apply the passage to our own lives.

Here is the passage:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Iconoclast]

KJV
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
NKJV
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
YLT
for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;


So far we have seen how a godly teacher approaches opening up a text.

He outlines where his study is going to go.
He defines some of the terms, properly, and biblically.
He gives examples of this very thing from the direct teaching of Jesus.
He comments on Jesus teaching of the living water, rivers of living water, being likened to Spiritual thoughts produced internally as the word is taken in.
He comments on Jesus teaching that some only have a shallow view of scripture, and the word never really takes root, it has no root in itself.

So he does not quickly get an idea or two without as D650 has commented on. No , he offers help. he does not say...just read it, you got this all by yourself. No...he offers a series of solid illustrations to help.

Let's proceed.

 

[JonC]

KJV
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
NKJV
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
YLT
for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;


So far we have seen how a godly teacher approaches opening up a text.

He outlines where his study is going to go.
He defines some of the terms, properly, and biblically.
He gives examples of this very thing from the direct teaching of Jesus.
He comments on Jesus teaching of the living water, rivers of living water, being likened to Spiritual thoughts produced internally as the word is taken in.
He comments on Jesus teaching that some only have a shallow view of scripture, and the word never really takes root, it has no root in itself.

So he does not quickly get an idea or two without as D650 has commented on. No , he offers help. he does not say...just read it, you got this all by yourself. No...he offers a series of solid illustrations to help.

Let's proceed.

What does the passage teach you, brother?

What is it getting at?

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Going with the topic of the OP, maybe it would be good to look at how we apply the passage to our own lives.[/QUOTE]

I think in these early portions John Owen felt the need to really grasp the passage first before looking to apply it, so we might continue to follow what he offered.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,

I understand Owen felt the need to expound on the passage. And we can gain an understanding of Owen from how he applied it.

But what does the passage teach you?

How should having a mind set on the Spirit look like in our lives?

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,
[QUOTE]What does the passage teach you, brother?

What is it getting at?[/QUOTE]

I notice that about 700 views have taken place so far. I think many are learning much from John Owen. I think many have not really read this , because it is work to extract the gems that are there, His scriptural insights and teaching.
It has changed how I view much of the Christian life, and professed Christians, but I doubt anyone wants me to go on, my own understanding, when a more gifted person has offered more food for thought, than I could, so i will bow to the more gifted person everytime.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet where men have no other thoughts of this matter but what are occasioned by the outward dispensation of the word, such thoughts do not prove them to be spiritually minded.

2. The duty of prayer is another means of the like nature. One principal end of it is to excite, stir up, and draw forth, the principle of grace, of faith and love in the heart, unto a due exercise in holy thoughts of God and spiritual things, with affections suitable unto them. Those who design not this end in prayer know not at all what it is to pray.

And it is hard to conceive how men can constantly join with others in prayer, much more how they can pray themselves, but that they must have thoughts of spiritual things every day; howbeit, it is possible that they may have no root or living spring of them in themselves, but they are only occasional impressions on their minds from the outward performance of the duty.

A man may read a long prayer that expresseth spiritual things, and yet never have one spiritual thought arise in his mind about them

If men are willing to deceive themselves, or to hide themselves from themselves, to walk with God at all peradventures, to leave all things at hazard, to put off all trials unto that at the last day, and so never call themselves unto an account as unto the nature of their duties in any particular instance, it is no wonder if they neither do nor can make any distinction in this matter as unto the true nature of their thoughts in spiritual duties.

This series of observations form a series of self examination questions that can be very helpful.
I find I sometimes have to read or re-read a section several times to understand the point, but it often reveals portions of scripture to me that can be examined even more

 

[Iconoclast]

[2.] Add we must unto our own diligent inquiry fervent prayers unto God that he would search and try us as unto our sincerity, and discover unto us the true frame of our hearts.

Hereof we have an express example, Psalm 139:23,24, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

This is the only way whereby we may have the Spirit of God witnessing unto our sincerity with our own spirits. There is need of calling in divine assistance in this matter, both from the importance of it and from its difficulty, God alone knowing fully and perfectly what is in the hearts of men.

And, which is yet more astonishable, men abide in the duty of prayer, and that with constancy, in their families and otherwise, and yet live in known sins. Whatever spiritual thoughts such men have in and by their prayers, they are not spiritually minded. Shall we now say that all such persons are gross hypocrites, such as know they do but mock God and man, — know that they have not desires nor aims after the things which they mention in their own prayers, but do these things either for some corrupt end or at best to satisfy their convictions? Could we thus resolve, the whole difficulty of the case were taken off; for such "double-minded men" have no reason to "think that they shall receive any thing of the Lord," as James speaks, chapter 1:7. Indeed they do not; — they never act faith with reference unto their own prayers. But it is not so with all of this sort. Some judge themselves sincere and in good earnest in their prayers, — not without some hopes and expectations of success. I will not say of all such persons that they are among the number of them concerning whom the Wisdom of God says, "Because I called, and they refused; they shall call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me," Proverbs 1:24,28.

 

[JonC]

JonC,
[QUOTE]

I notice that about 700 views have taken place so far. I think many are learning much from John Owen. I think many have not really read his , because it is work to extract the gems that are there, His scriptural insights and teaching.
It has changed how I view much of the Christian life, and professed Christians, but I doubt anyone wants me to go on, my own understanding, when a more gifted person has offered more food for thought, than I could, so i will bow to the more gifted person everytime.

Don't belittle yourself. We can learn from reading books, but iron sharpens iron. We learn from one another.

It is interesting to read how people applied Scripture in the past, but we have to apply Scripture to our lives in the present.

Owen wrote to his contemporaries, those who shared world, so to speak. About the only common environment we share is this board. So let's look at this environment.


A mind set on the flesh is death.

A mind set on the Spirit is life.

Scripture tells us how this looks. A life set on the flesh is at odds with God. This life insults and accuses others, seeks strife, is without patience, is unkind, envies, is "puffed up", seeks its own, etc. A life set on the Spirit loves the brethern, is kind, seeks not its own interests, is gentle, uplifts, encourages, etc.

On this forum this convicts me to be more kind, more loving, to refrain from insulting other people.

And this is how we can judge other members - not necessarily their salvation but their walk, their faith, their maturity in Christ.

How do you apply the passages to your interactions here?

 

[Iconoclast]

This was one of the best sections of the book to help the teaching stay in your mind;
Some, I say, there are who embrace all occasions of spiritual communication. Those with whom they do converse, if they are not profligate, if they have any spiritual light, cannot but so far comply with what they say as to think of the things spoken, which are spiritual.

1] Ofttimes the track and course of men’s thoughts lie so out of the way, are so contrary, unto such things, that they seem strange unto them, they give them no entertainment. You do but cross their way with such discourses, whereon they stand still a little, and so pass on.

2] Even the countenances of some men will change hereon, and they betake themselves unto an unsatisfied silence until they can divert unto other things.

3]Some will make such replies of empty words as shall evidence their hearts to be far enough estranged from the things proposed unto them.


4]But with others, such occasional discourses will make such impressions on their minds as to stir up present thoughts of spiritual things.


But though frequent occasions hereof may be renewed, yet will such thoughts give no evidence that any man is spiritually minded; for they are not genuine, from an internal spring of grace.

From these causes it is that the thoughts of spiritual things are with many as guests that come into an inn, and not like children that dwell in the house.

They enter occasionally, and then there is a great stir about them, to provide meet entertainment for them. Within a while they are disposed of, and so depart unto their own occasions, being neither looked nor inquired after any more.

Things of another nature are attended unto; new occasions bring in new guests for a season.

Children are owned in the house, are missed if they are out of the way, and have their daily provision constantly made for them. So is it with these occasional thoughts about spiritual things.

By one means or other they enter into the mind, and there are entertained for a season; on a sudden they depart, and men hear of them no more.

But those that are natural and genuine, arising from a living spring of grace in the heart, disposing the mind unto them, are as the children of the house.


They are expected in their places and at their seasons. If they are missing, they are inquired after. The heart calls itself unto an account whence it is that it hath been so long without them, and calls them over into its wonted converse with them.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

It is interesting to read how people applied Scripture in the past, but we have to apply Scripture to our lives in the present.

Owen wrote to his contemporaries, those who shared world, so to speak.

As J.Owen has offered both scripture and helpful examples, and scripture does not have an expiration date, I think I will stick with what he offers. The last post is beneficial to any Christian at any time. I see no time restriction on his examples or scripture at all.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



As J.Owen has offered both scripture and helpful examples, and scripture does not have an expiration date, I think I will stick with what he offers. The last post is beneficial to any Christian at any time. I see no time restriction on his examples or scripture at all.

Yes, we can learn from those of the past. I agree.

But if we are not able to apply Scripture to our lives then there is a problem.

The thread is about what Romans 8:6 means. Scripture tells us what it means. A mind set on the flesh is death, but a mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

Perhaps before exploring how others centuries ago applied the passage to their lives we should make sure we can apply the passage to our own lives.

 

[Iconoclast]

CHAPTER IV. Other evidences of thoughts about spiritual things arising from an internal principle of grace, whereby they are an evidence of our being spiritually minded — The abounding of these thoughts, how far, and wherein, such an evidence.


The SECOND evidence that our thoughts of spiritual things do proceed from an internal fountain of sanctified light and affections, or that they are acts or fruits of our being spiritually minded, is, that they abound in us, that our minds are filled with them. We may say of them as the apostle doth of other graces, "If these things be in you, and abound, ye shall not be barren."

It is well, indeed, when our minds are like the land of Egypt in the years of plenty, when it "brought forth by handfuls," — when they flow from the well of living water in us with a full stream and current; but there is a measure of abounding which is necessary to evidence our being spiritually minded in them. There is a double effect ascribed here unto this frame of spirit, — first "life," and then "peace." The nature and being of this grace depend on the former consideration of it, — namely, its procedure from an internal principle of grace, the effect and consequence whereof is "life:" but that it is "peace" also depends on this degree and measure of the actings of this part of it in our spiritual thoughts; and this we must consider.

Wherefore, when we are spiritually minded, we shall abound in spiritual thoughts, or thoughts of spiritual things. That we have such thoughts will not sufficiently evidence that we are so, unless we abound in them. And this leads us unto the principal inquiry on this head, namely, what measure we ought to assign hereof, how we may know when we abound in spiritual thoughts, so as that they may be an evidence of our being spiritually minded

.I answer, in general, among other Scriptures read over Psalm 119 with understanding. Consider therein what David expresseth of himself, as unto his constant delight in and continual thoughts of the law of God; which was the only means of divine revelation at that season. Try yourselves by that pattern; examine yourselves whether you can truly speak the same words with him, at least if not in the same degree of zeal, yet with the same sincerity of grace.


You will say, "That was David. It is not for us, it is not our duty, to be like unto him, at least not to be equal with him." But as far as I know, we must be like him, if ever we intend to come to the place where he is. It will ruin our souls, if, when we read in the Scripture how the saints of God express their experience in faith, love, delight in God, and constant meditation on him, we grant that it was so with them, that they were good and holy men, but it is not necessary that it should be so with us