Romans 8: After the Spirit

[Guido]

The Free Grace position is that salvation is by faith alone, neither merited nor proven by good works; but Romans 8 says of those who are in Christ Jesus, that they walk after the Spirit, seeming to signify, according to some interpretation of this phrase, that the saints obey God naturally.

What is the right way to interpret this verse from a Free Grace position, and the chapter as a whole?

 

[KenH]

What is the right way to interpret this verse

"but after the spirit, by which is meant, not spiritual worship, in opposition to carnal ordinances; but rather, either a principle of grace, in opposition to corrupt nature, called "Spirit", from the author, subject, and nature of it; or the Holy Spirit of God, the efficient cause of all grace: to walk after him, is to make him our guide, to follow his dictates, influences, and directions; as such do, who walk by faith on Christ, and in imitation of him, in the ways of righteousness and holiness; and such persons walk pleasantly, cheerfully, and safely: now let it be observed, that this walk and conversation of the saints, is not the cause of there being no condemnation to them; but is descriptive of the persons interested in such a privilege; and is evidential of their right unto it, as well as of their being in Christ: and it may be further observed, that there must be union to Christ, or a being in him, before there can be walking after the Spirit."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 8:1

 

[37818]

The Free Grace position is that salvation is by faith alone, neither merited nor proven by good works; but Romans 8 says of those who are in Christ Jesus, that they walk after the Spirit, seeming to signify, according to some interpretation of this phrase, that the saints obey God naturally.

What is the right way to interpret this verse from a Free Grace position, and the chapter as a whole?

There seems to be confusion of terms. As you have stated it, it is not Biblical. And @KenH quotes another man's commentary.

 

[Guido]

"but after the spirit, by which is meant, not spiritual worship, in opposition to carnal ordinances; but rather, either a principle of grace, in opposition to corrupt nature, called "Spirit", from the author, subject, and nature of it; or the Holy Spirit of God, the efficient cause of all grace: to walk after him, is to make him our guide, to follow his dictates, influences, and directions; as such do, who walk by faith on Christ, and in imitation of him, in the ways of righteousness and holiness; and such persons walk pleasantly, cheerfully, and safely: now let it be observed, that this walk and conversation of the saints, is not the cause of there being no condemnation to them; but is descriptive of the persons interested in such a privilege; and is evidential of their right unto it, as well as of their being in Christ: and it may be further observed, that there must be union to Christ, or a being in him, before there can be walking after the Spirit."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 8:1

This suggests that works are a proof of salvation, a doctrine contrary to Free Grace.

 

[37818]

Romans 11:6, ". . . And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ."

 

[DaveXR650]

This suggests that works are a proof of salvation, a doctrine contrary to Free Grace.

You are correct @Guido in that that is contrary to a Free Grace position. In a Free Grace position Romans 8 is mostly describing an optional walk that while leading to maximum happiness and Christian joy - is completely optional. However; @KenH put up the correct answer to your question. The Free Grace position is wrong and can be harmful if you're not careful.

 

[Guido]

You are correct @Guido in that that is contrary to a Free Grace position. In a Free Grace position Romans 8 is mostly describing an optional walk that while leading to maximum happiness and Christian joy - is completely optional. However; @KenH put up the correct answer to your question. The Free Grace position is wrong and can be harmful if you're not careful.

KenH merely quoted a commentary, not demonstrating from scripture the truthfulness of his point, nor from any dictionary the harmony of the text and his doctrine.

 

[DaveXR650]

When guys on here quote a commentary, you should be thankful. Gill is a formidable theologian and although I can't speak for KenH, I would say he did you a service by putting you on a better direction than the Free Grace stuff you are reading. Romans 8:5 clearly says that minding the things of the flesh shows that you are after the flesh. The next verse shows the seriousness of looking into this and the fact that what you do has value in showing your condition. Examining yourself is sound and biblical. Look at Philippians 3:18-21. You have the same theme and warning.

 

[kyredneck]

The Free Grace position is that salvation is by faith alone

Nowhere in scripture is 'faith alone' to be found. Totally anti-scriptural. James 2:24

neither merited nor proven by good works;

It's by our works that we're all going to be judged.

Romans 8 says of those who are in Christ Jesus, that they walk after the Spirit, seeming to signify, according to some interpretation of this phrase, that the saints obey God naturally.

GLORY HALLELUJAH! Someone finally said it!

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

This suggests that works are a proof of salvation, a doctrine contrary to Free Grace.

Good works are proof of the spirit within (read 'the law written in their hearts'):

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. Gal 5

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 8 is mostly describing an optional walk that while leading to maximum happiness and Christian joy - is completely optional

The redeemed are the ONLY ones that have the 'free will' to "choose you this day whom ye will serve".

 

[Guido]

Nowhere in scripture is 'faith alone' to be found. Totally anti-scriptural. James 2:24



It's by our works that we're all going to be judged.



GLORY HALLELUJAH! Someone finally said it!

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2



Good works are proof of the spirit within (read 'the law written in their hearts'):

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. Gal 5

Numerous verses in the Bible bear witness to the courtesy of the gift of eternal life, received apart from trust in works by faith in Jesus Christ, and by means of works unable to be lost.

 

[KenH]

KenH merely quoted a commentary, not demonstrating from scripture the truthfulness of his point, nor from any dictionary the harmony of the text and his doctrine.

The apostles were give the gospel directly. The rest of us must hear by the preaching and teaching of faithful gospel preachers and teachers:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! - Romans 10:14-15

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. - 2 Timothy 2:2

Also, John Gill taught the gospel of Christ, to wit, that God chose His elect before the foundation of the earth, not because He saw anything good in them or to be done by them but for His own purpose and grace(2 Timothy 1:9), the sins of His elect were imputed to Christ and Christ paid their sin debt at the cross and Christ's perfect righteousness was imputed to them(2 Corinthians 5:21); then at God's timing He brings His elect under the hearing of the gospel and He grants them faith and repentance from dead works and gives them understanding that they cannot be righteous in and of themselves and that they must look to the righteousness of another, which He does by causing them to look to Christ as the Lord our Righteousness(Jeremiah 23:6, Jeremiah 33:16).

The elect's own works(and they do perform works) have nothing to do with them being saved nor staying saved. Any works that the elect do were already ordained by God for them to do. They cannot take any credit whatsoever for performing them:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:10

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

 

[KenH]

It's by our works that we're all going to be judged.

The elect are judged(in fact were already judged) in Christ at the cross and declared justified. The reprobates have only their works to offer and they will not be justified due to the fact that their works could never produce the righteousness of God.

Now, I did not say that God's elect don't perform good works. In my post above this one I showed the cause of their good works - God.

 

[kyredneck]

The elect are judged(in fact were already judged) in Christ at the cross and declared justified.

If you were going to 'flesh that out' from the scripture, what passages would you use? (I know of one such passage for certain). I'm with Gill and Richardson and other 'old school' Particular Baptists and believe we're 'justified from eternity'.

works could never produce the righteousness of God.

As much as I've been wrongly accused of that on this board, I've never held to such a thing.

the cause of their good works - God.

I've said that many many times and still get wrongly accused.

 

[kyredneck]

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

Zactly what I said here:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

Good works are proof of the spirit within (read 'the law written in their hearts'):

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. Gal 5

 

[KenH]

'justified from eternity'.

Totally agree. I have two very good books in my possession on the subject which are on my "To Read" list:

John Gill and Justification from Eternity: A Tercentenary Appreciation, by Goerge M. Ella
A defence of the doctrine of eternal justification, from some exceptions made to it by Mr. Bragge, and others, by John Brine

Also, another book, by a friend of mine, Bill Parker, who is the pastor of Eager Avenue Grace Church in Albany, Georgia, which I don't need a hard copy of since I can read it online:

When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf (b5z.net)

in which he states, "Justification involves God in eternity, before the foundation of the world, sovereignly and unconditionally choosing His people in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and literally giving them to Christ, entrusting their whole salvation to Him. This means that God conditioned the whole salvation of His chosen people on Christ and the work that Christ would come in time and accomplish for them by His obedience unto death. In other words, God the Father made Christ to be the Surety of His people. ... So, it can be said that God’s people were JUSTIFIED IN ETERNITY in the eternal mind of God as Christ has always been (and always will be) their Surety. This justification was always based upon what Christ would come in time and accomplish for them on the cross. ...

We must realize that if we believe what the Bible teaches, there has never been a time when God viewed His people outside of Christ and without the merits of His death on the cross to be accomplished in time. Even when God’s chosen people fell into sin and death by Adam, and even when they were (and are) born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (by nature no different than the children of wrath), they were (and are) covered by God’s everlasting covenant of grace in Christ and based on His righteousness imputed to them. This is in line with the Biblical revelation that all who are saved by God’s grace were (and are) “the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:23), and objects of God’s “purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9)." ...

Just as eternal justification made the cross of Christ necessary, it also makes the new birth and faith in Christ necessary. Why? It is because just as sin imputed demands death and condemnation, Christ’s righteousness imputed demands spiritual and eternal life (Romans 5:21). God’s purpose in saving His people is not simply to populate the new heavens and the new earth. His purpose is to glorify Himself in saving His people from their sins and bringing them to Himself by faith in Christ so as to worship and serve Him as His true children (1 Peter 3:18). To accomplish this fully, the Lord Jesus Christ had to die for their sins imputed to Him and satisfy God’s justice, and they must be given spiritual and eternal life and be brought to final glory. Because they are justified based on Christ’s righteousness imputed, they must be born again, brought to faith in Christ, and preserved unto final glory. All of this is the fruit and effect of God’s sovereign power and grace based on the righteousness of Christ imputed to His people."

 

[KenH]

@kyredneck My own view on justification so far is this:

The elect were justified from eternity when chosen by God the Father and given to God the Son;
The elect were justified at the cross when God the Son paid the penalty for their sins;
The elect were justified when God the Son arose from the dead, indicating God’s acceptance of His sacrifice on their behalf;
The elect were justified at faith when they were granted true faith and repentance from dead works by God the Holy Spirit working through the preached gospel of their salvation.

There is no doubt whatsover that God's elect were, are, and always will be justified by the working out of God's sovereign grace.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Free Grace position is that salvation is by faith alone, neither merited nor proven by good works; but Romans 8 says of those who are in Christ Jesus, that they walk after the Spirit, seeming to signify, according to some interpretation of this phrase, that the saints obey God naturally.

What is the right way to interpret this verse from a Free Grace position, and the chapter as a whole?

To be clear, the saints do obey God naturally because they are new creatures, united with Christ, and have new natures. That does not mean that they make no use any more of biblical teaching, including the Law, which they now love and agree with because it is no longer against them and they have a new nature and the Holy Spirit inside them. It is also true that they will and MUST do good works not to assist in their justification but because if the previous things really occurred in them truly then good works and walking after the Spirit must occur. The reformers knew what they were saying when they said that you are justified by faith alone but it's a faith that is never alone, certain changes being the inevitable result - always.

The Free Grace preachers teach that the good works and the changes in behavior are optional and may not ever occur. Some of the Calvinists like the Marrow men and Bonar and Spurgeon are sometimes accused of being free grace because they believe God is really in a sense handing out free pardons and they were accused of making it too easy. In fact, it is easy because Christ died to make it easy and to make it possible for us to come without any qualifications. But the Free Grace movement goes beyond that and makes living like a Christian optional and sometimes rebukes anyone who examines themselves and doesn't like what they discover. That is why they can be harmful. Also remember that many free grace people live lives that indeed indicate they are true believers even though I think they teach in a way that could be harmful.

 

[Alan Gross]

The Free Grace position is that salvation is by faith alone, neither merited nor proven by good works; but Romans 8 says of those who are in Christ Jesus, that they walk after the Spirit, seeming to signify, according to some interpretation of this phrase, that the saints obey God naturally.

What is the right way to interpret this verse from a Free Grace position, and the chapter as a whole?

Salvation is by Free Grace Provided and Granted by God 100%. Romans 8:30.

These 'saints' you mention are Saved and have, therefore, been Given The Holy Spirit, in The New Birth.

 

[Alan Gross]

"but after the spirit, by which is meant, not spiritual worship, in opposition to carnal ordinances; but rather, either a principle of grace, in opposition to corrupt nature, called "Spirit", from the author, subject, and nature of it; or the Holy Spirit of God, the efficient cause of all grace: to walk after him, is to make him our guide, to follow his dictates, influences, and directions; as such do, who walk by faith on Christ, and in imitation of him, in the ways of righteousness and holiness; and such persons walk pleasantly, cheerfully, and safely: now let it be observed, that this walk and conversation of the saints, is not the cause of there being no condemnation to them; but is descriptive of the persons interested in such a privilege; and is evidential of their right unto it, as well as of their being in Christ: and it may be further observed, that there must be union to Christ, or a being in him, before there can be walking after the Spirit."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 8:1

Agree with all!

as such do, who walk by faith on Christ, and in imitation of him, in the ways of righteousness and holiness;

is evidential of their right unto it, as well as of their being in Christ:

it may be further observed, that there must be union to Christ, or a being in him, before there can be walking after the Spirit."