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Romans 9 and Reformed Error

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Aaron

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you are BLINDED by your theology, so beyond any help!
Au contraire. I was blind, but now I see.

And was beyond help, but not beyond God's power to save.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

Only a Calvinist can sing that verse with any real pathos. Not you. Because you must always assert some level of goodness...some merit...something not quite so wretched and depraved within yourself that made you good enough so that in the free exercise of your carnal will, you could choose Jesus.

All I can say is praise you! To you be the glory. Great things you have done.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Au contraire. I was blind, but now I see.

And was beyond help, but not beyond God's power to save.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

Only a Calvinist can sing that verse with any real pathos. Not you. Because you must always assert some level of goodness...some merit...something not quite so wretched and depraved within yourself that made you good enough so that in the free exercise of your carnal will, you could choose Jesus.

All I can say is praise you! To you be the glory. Great things you have done.

It is the Calvinist that HATES God's created human beings, when God Himself LOVES them! And it is the Calvinist that will pervert the Scriptures from saying what they do, so that they can continue to push their HERESIES! It is only the Calvinist that determines only the "elect" can be saved, which is 100% AGAINST the Holy Bible! THANK GOD, that the "Reformed/Calvinist" churches around the world are in fast decline, and many have closed down! God is keeping people from hearing LIES that these groups teach! Praise His Great Name!!! :Thumbsup
 
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Aaron

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It is the Calvinist that HATES God's created human beings, when God Himself LOVES them! And it is the Calvinist that will pervert the Scriptures from saying what they do, so that they can continue to push their HERESIES! It is only the Calvinist that determines only the "elect" can be saved, which is 100% AGAINST the Holy Bible! THANK GOD, that the "Reformed/Calvinist" churches around the world are in fast decline, and many have closed down! God is keeping people from hearing LIES that these groups teach! Praise His Great Name!!! :Thumbsup
Hate? No no no. The Calvinist preaches for the only real reason to preach...love. Love for God. Love for the Gospel. Love for his fellow man. But mostly for the love of God and His Gospel.

Knowing that all his labor is in vain if God's grace does not work in the hearer both to will and to do of God's good pleasure, what other reason is there to preach?

It is the noncal who continually wrests the Gospel to be palatable to the carnal mind, which is the reason you always appeal to some carnal sense of justice to argue with God. "Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?" The Gospel is constantly wrested by the noncal to appeal to the hearer's pride, and his appetites.

Not the Calvinist. The Calvinist is free to preach the unvarnished truth from a pure motive of love for God and His Gospel.

And it's the Calvinist who has any real reason to pray for others, knowing that God can, and will, prevail for those He has chosen to be conformed into the image of His Son.

You are the bitter one.

And you have yet to actually engage the question.

What does it mean to be a child of God? Romans 9 is all about God's true children. Answer that question honestly, and you will have to confess your errors. I think you sense that, and so you resort to aspersions .
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
WHY do you and the others refuse to deal with 9:22?

" What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

WHY does God endured with much patience vessels of wrath? answer this!

The verse tells you.
1) To show God's wrath
2) To make known His power

We read in Exodus that God sends the Angel of death upon Egypt. We read that the Judas was selected as the son of perdition. We see that God hardened Pharaohs heart.

God does this according to His will. You have one of two choices when God chooses to allow evil to happen.
1) Curse God and die.
2) Praise God in the evil as well as the good.

sbw, your question is between you and God. Either you accept the paradox of God's word or you turn from God and declare yourself king.
 

Martin Marprelate

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It is the Calvinist that HATES God's created human beings, when God Himself LOVES them! And it is the Calvinist that will pervert the Scriptures from saying what they do, so that they can continue to push their HERESIES! It is only the Calvinist that determines only the "elect" can be saved, which is 100% AGAINST the Holy Bible! THANK GOD, that the "Reformed/Calvinist" churches around the world are in fast decline, and many have closed down! God is keeping people from hearing LIES that these groups teach! Praise His Great Name!!! :Thumbsup
SBG,
I know from some P.M.s that we've exchanged that you are really a very nice chap.
You don't need to make false accusations against your brothers in Christ. Indeed, as a Brit, you should be setting an example of moderation to all the colonial types here. :) So have a read of 2 Timothy 2:24 and cool down a bit.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
SBG,
I know from some P.M.s that we've exchanged that you are really a very nice chap.
You don't need to make false accusations against your brothers in Christ. Indeed, as a Brit, you should be setting an example of moderation to all the colonial types here. :) So have a read of 2 Timothy 2:24 and cool down a bit.

Why should I not be cool? I am fine thanks but can't abide Calvinism on salvation snip.
 
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Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
“But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (verses 6-16)

This is a much used passage by “reformed” theology, to try to prove “election to salvation”. In the first place, no where in this passage, is there any reference to “salvation”, as in saving of anyones soul. This has been forced into this passage by those who wish to promote their “theology”, which is not found here.

Paul is here describing God's “choosing” of Jacob, the younger brother of Easu, for His purposes, not for salvation. The Greek noun used here, “ἐκλογή”, is for “the act of picking out, choosing”, and not as suggested by versions like the KJV, “election”, as though it means “to salvation”. This no doubt was so translated to further this teaching. Clearly here Paul is speaking of God's “preference” of Jacob, over Easu, which is His Divine prerogative. This “choice” is seen from the words that follow, “The older will serve the younger”. This, and this alone is what Paul here means by using “ἐκλογή”, and not what some would force it to mean. Context is very important for a correct understanding.

Another word that has been misused and misapplied by “reformed” theology, is Paul's quoting of Malachi 1:2-3, “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” Following on from telling us that Easu will serve his younger brother, Jacob, Paul justifies this by quoting from this passage in Malachi, “As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”. This has been used, or rather abused in its meaning by some “reformed”, who say this is evidence that God does not “love” everyone in the human race, and actually God “hates” those who are “non elect”. When asked why this would be, they cannot find any Biblical answer, so they invent one from these passages! As I have said, Paul here is showing God's “preference” of Jacob, over Easu, for His service, and follows on by saying, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”. The verb “ἀγαπάω”, is one of “affection”, “to be fond of”. Then we have “μισέω”, where its meaning is not in the literal sense, “to detest”, as our English would mean, but, contextually, and where it is used, it is clear that it means “less preference”. This is very clear in passages like Genesis 29:30-31; Deuteronomy 21:15-16, and in what Jesus means in passages like, Luke 14:26, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters, and besides, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”, where it is obvious that Jesus does not mean that we are to “detest” our own families, but, rather, that we must “prefer” Him to all others. This is very clear from John 21:15, and following, where Jesus says to Peter, “Therefore when they broke fast, Jesus says to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these? He says to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. He says to him, Feed My lambs!”. It is interesting, that those who think that God actually “detests” the “non elect”, never quote Psalm 106:40, which is speaking of God's own People, “Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against His people, And He loathed His inheritance ” (NASB). And, “Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against His people And He detested His own inheritance.” (Amplified Bible), And, “Therefore the wrath of the LORD was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance” (NKJV). The Hebrew word “taʻâb”, used here, is much stronger than, “sânêʼ” used in Malachi for Easu!

Paul, in arguing for God's “preference” of Jacob over Easu, asks the question in relation to this, “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part?”, and asnwers, “By no means!”. And the begins verse 15, by giving the reason (γάρ, for), “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.””. Again, in the context, is about God's “preference” of Jacob over Easu, and has nothing to do with salvation, or the “elect”, as some would have us think!

As are the words in verse 19, “Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”, which again has nothing to do with “election to salvation”, but “service to the Lord”. Nor are the words in verse 22 considered, “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”. If as it is assumed, that God has no interest in the “non elect”, and has abandoned them all eternal destruction, then why would God “endured with much longsuffering”, which these “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”? For what purpose is God “enduring with much longsuffering”, which these who are destined to “destruction”? This “longsuffering” of the Lord towards the “vessels of wrath”, is made clear from 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”
And here is your error, thinking that the Reformed position relies on these verses in isolation. We don't. In fact, when we are talking about Romans 9, we take it within the whole context of the entire letter to the Romans. Specifically, in this instance, we would not isolate these verses from chapters 8-11.

I understand you like to take verses out of their context and isolate them to "prove" a position. I don't do that. Nor do I take comments of commentaries and articles out of context to try and twist their meaning. That is what you repeatedly do in your dishonest deceptions.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
WHY do you and the others refuse to deal with 9:22?

" What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"

WHY does God endured with much patience vessels of wrath? answer this!

" [What[ if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
( Romans 9:22-24 ).

There's your answer, SBG, right in the text.;)
He endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy...

Which He had before prepared to that glory.:)
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Why should I not be cool? I am fine thanks but can't abide Calvinism on salvationsnip
Reformed Theology = Saved by God's grace apart from man's efforts

Non-reformed theology = saved by human choice which causes God to react and save

Now...which of those two is expressed by God in the Bible and which is a teaching of man?

sbw, you have spent nearly all your time complaining about God being the cause agent of salvation, rather than show how your choice caused God to save you.
It is observable to see you are fighting against God as He demands your humble acknowledgement that you had no capacity to save yourself.

Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
 
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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
And here is your error, thinking that the Reformed position relies on these verses in isolation. We don't. In fact, when we are talking about Romans 9, we take it within the whole context of the entire letter to the Romans. Specifically, in this instance, we would not isolate these verses from chapters 8-11.

I understand you like to take verses out of their context and isolate them to "prove" a position. I don't do that. Nor do I take comments of commentaries and articles out of context to try and twist their meaning. That is what you repeatedly do in your dishonest deceptions.

Ah you speak as a true Calvinist. :eek:
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Gentlemen,

Should we not be patient with our answers?;)
He's only asking the questions because he wants to know why some of us see it the way that we do.

Let's not accuse him of anything untowards,
as to me, it just shouldn't be done.

Rather, respect and civility should prevail, should it not?:)
 
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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
" [What[ if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
( Romans 9:22-24 ).

There's your answer, SBG, right in the text.;)
He endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy...

Which He had before prepared to that glory.:)

Your "answer" is not really an answer as you still cannot deal with the fact that God is long-suffering towards the vessels of destruction. The ONLY real answer is found in 2 Peter 3. 9
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Gentlemen,

Should we not be patient with our answers?;)
He's only asking the questions because he wants to know why some of us see it the way that we do.

Let's not accuse him of anything untowards,
as to me, it just shouldn't be done.

Rather, respect and civility should prevail, should it not?:)
Agreed. sbw is wrestling with this, which is exactly what I did. I went to an Arminian college in Grand Rapids Michigan while interacting with Calvinists from Calvin College and Grace College. I would argue against the seeming horrific idea that God refused to let me choose, yet never really looking at the fact that apart from God making me alive, I would never choose God...I would always choose me.
Choosing me is easy. It requires no faith. I have control. I can either glory in my capacity to be good or I can drown in my incapacity to be good, which is what I did. I was like a bi-polar person who would have these great highs of experience and then suffer these debilitating lows of depression. I was constantly checking myself as I fought and either won or lost the battle against sin. Jesus was my redeemer, but I was solely responsible to become holy by my works. I was responsible for my own sanctification. It was exhausting.
Then, I read the book of Hebrews while hiding from kids at a Bible camp in a game of "find the counselor." All I could see was "but Jesus is greater." I was overwhelmed with joy that Jesus both authored and finished my faith. He was my everything.
Then I read Galatians and came upon chapter 2 verse 20 and my eyes saw that it was no longer I who lived, but Christ lived in me. God brought me to the end of myself and to the beginning of resting in Christ for everything. Then I started seeing the vast number of passages where God tells me I was chosen out of my wretchedness. Boom! Amazing Grace, how can it be???
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
and not as suggested by versions like the KJV

And here we go again with the anti-KJV refrain (#2 in signature). Cue the yawn.
The word election is not mistranslated, and just because the Calvinist brethren have developed the Pavlovian reflex of hearing "salvation" whenever they read "election", doesn't mean I'm gonna change the word of God to counter that reflex; in which case they would anyway simply react similarly to any new word chosen, and we would be back to square 1.
That the election there (in relation to Jacob and Esau) is unto blessing, not salvation, is clear from the text.
 
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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Your tunnel vision blinds you:

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

The subject is NOT only about Jacob and Esau.

Of course it's not, but that's because Paul is drawing from Jacob and Esau's example that election (whether unto blessing, as in their case, or salvation, as he now extends the principle of not-by-works to salvation) is not by works, but by faith. There is nothing there about an eternal decree.
God chooses to save those who believe, not those who work, and he hardens those who refuse to believe on Christ, as instanced in Israel being hardened and blinded. It's simple. Really.
 
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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Agreed. sbw is wrestling with this, which is exactly what I did. I went to an Arminian college in Grand Rapids Michigan while interacting with Calvinists from Calvin College and Grace College. I would argue against the seeming horrific idea that God refused to let me choose, yet never really looking at the fact that apart from God making me alive, I would never choose God...I would always choose me.
Choosing me is easy. It requires no faith. I have control. I can either glory in my capacity to be good or I can drown in my incapacity to be good, which is what I did. I was like a bi-polar person who would have these great highs of experience and then suffer these debilitating lows of depression. I was constantly checking myself as I fought and either won or lost the battle against sin. Jesus was my redeemer, but I was solely responsible to become holy by my works. I was responsible for my own sanctification. It was exhausting.
Then, I read the book of Hebrews while hiding from kids at a Bible camp in a game of "find the counselor." All I could see was "but Jesus is greater." I was overwhelmed with joy that Jesus both authored and finished my faith. He was my everything.
Then I read Galatians and came upon chapter 2 verse 20 and my eyes saw that it was no longer I who lived, but Christ lived in me. God brought me to the end of myself and to the beginning of resting in Christ for everything. Then I started seeing the vast number of passages where God tells me I was chosen out of my wretchedness. Boom! Amazing Grace, how can it be???

False dichotomy. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are in error.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
And here we go again with the anti-KJV refrain (#2 in signature). Cue the yawn.
The word election is not mistranslated, and just because the Calvinist brethren have developed the Pavlovian reflex of hearing "salvation" whenever they read "election", doesn't mean I'm gonna change the word of God to counter that reflex.
That the election there (in relation to Jacob and Esau) is unto blessing, not salvation, is clear from the text.

you missed what I actually said, "like the KJV", means that it is NOT only the KJV's choosing of "election" here, which it would have done for theological purposes, as it is a "reformed" version.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
you missed what I actually said, "like the KJV", means that it is NOT only the KJV's choosing of "election" here, which it would have done for theological purposes, as it is a "reformed" version.
I didn't miss it. But it's the lightning rod and the only mentioned by name. It's a spiritual hiccup.
 
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