Featured Romans 9 and Reformed Error

They were predestinated not to admit it.

 

sbw, I showed you that Paul tells you in the verse. Why can you not accept Paul's answer?

 

God's longsuffering upon the vessels of wrath makes his wrath known?!
It's rather that it makes his longsuffering known.
longsuffering makes longsuffering known, almost the antithesis of wrath.
@SavedByGrace also gave you an answer, and a clear, sensical one at that.

 

I "deal" with the fact that it says what it says, SBG.
He is long-suffering towards the non-elect ( the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ), for the sake of the elect ( the vessels of mercy "afore" prepared unto glory )..

Same as 2 Peter 3:9...
He is long-suffering to "US-ward"...the "beloved" from verse 8.
Not willing that any of the "us-ward" perish, but that ALL of the "us-ward" come to repentance.

As I've stated in previous threads, I'm sorry that you don't see it,
but I do get it from the words on the page and not out of any other book, my friend.


You may call it heresy if you like;
It is your privilege under God, and we all stand as individuals before Christ at the Judgment.


But after the manner that you call "heresy", I worship the God of all Creation.

 

The Second Coming has been on hold, as the Lord is still patient and gracious to make sure ALL of His own will come home before that event!

 

See my immediate post above.

Because the Lord is indeed merciful, even to His enemies.

Again, He chooses to be merciful and have compassion on whom He will,
and to harden whom He will ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 ).
His goodness, while it leads all men to repentance ( Romans 2:1-11 ),
does not actually result in anyone voluntarily coming to Him in repentance.

We as men are far too hard-hearted and set in our sins for that ( Jeremiah 13:23 ).
It takes the new birth to break us of our love for sin and hatred of God.


With that, I take my leave of commenting in this thread.
As always, I wish you well, sir.

 

Paul didn't say "for the sake of the elect". Let's stick to "the fact that it says what it says".

 

Has not the Lord been gracious towards even the lost every day they experience life and blessings?

 

No one denies that.

 

What does the text say?

Romans 9:22-33

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

The text gives both you and sbw the very answer, yet you seem to utterly despise the answer and attempt to change the words and meaning to fit your own image of God, which you can then approve for yourself.
My admonition to you and sbw is to accept the full counsel of God regarding His Sovereign means of salvation. God is very clear, yet you keep attempting to obfuscate.

 

God is long-suffering with all humanity, both those destined to redemption and those destined to judgment. Were he not mercifully patient, all humanity would die upon conception. (Thus humanity would not exist and we would not be having this conversation.)

Your question is for God.
Ask God why He, in His Sovereignty, bothers with humanity. See what God tells you.

Exodus 33:18-20
Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

Exodus 34:6-9
The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.” And Moses quickly bowed his head toward the earth and worshiped. And he said, “If now I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, please let the Lord go in the midst of us, for it is a stiff-necked people, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.”

Have Mercy on Me: Four Glimpses into the Heart of God

 

Once again you have it totally wrong and backwards.

 

• Firstly, I don't know what you quoted, but let's quote the true words of God.

It's not "in order to" in Romans 9:23; it's "and that".
Let's not pick the version that best suits our theology, but let's stick with the God-honoured text of the reformation.

• Secondly, this is a case study in how one's theology unconsciously bends the text to fit the mold.

Please try to understand what I'm saying. Don't agree with it, just understand it:

The problem here is that when you read vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy you read that as 2 groups with the vessels of each group never migrating from one group to the other because they've been set in those groups by an unchangeable decree from eternity past. In your mind vessels of wrath can never become vessels of mercy, nor vice-versa.

Now we know that a man that rejects the Son abides under the wrath of God while in that state:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Men in a state of rejection, are at that point, by definition, vessels of wrath.
But if they repent and receive the Son, those same vessels of wrath become vessels of mercy:
Rom_11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even as the hardened Jews themselves, will, upon faith in Christ one day, go from wrath to mercy:
Rom_11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Paul is asking: “And what if I told you that God, though willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, nevertheless endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction because he also wants to make known the riches of his glory in mercy – as opposed to just his willingness to shew his wrath – which glory, by his longsuffering, he makes known on vessels of mercy – since the longsuffering (2:4/9:22) of God leadeth…to repentance (Ro.2:4) – which vessels of mercy are the same as the now-former vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; would you still say that there is unrighteousness with God (v.14)?”
I.e. Paul's counter to the objections of vs. 14 & 20 (God is unrighteous, why hath me made me thus?) is: "Yes God can harden you because of your unbelief, irrespective of your good works, but God is also longsuffering and he desires to show mercy so if you repent by believing, then you will become a vessel of mercy instead of of wrath".

The proof that the vessels of mercy are the former vessels of wrath lies in Paul’s own and immediately following illustration of his own point: Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles [who are in their natural rejected state, as Ishmael and Esau earlier, vessels of wrath]? Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people [note the change: the Gentiles were not God’s people – vessels of wrath, but have now become God’s people –vessels of mercy]; and her beloved, which was not beloved [once again he mentions a change: the Gentiles were not beloved – vessels of wrath, but have now become beloved – vessels of mercy]. Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God [a 3rd time: the Gentiles were not children (look back to v.7 now!) – vessels of wrath, but have now become God’s children – vessels of mercy]. The idea is that even though Gentiles are not children of the promise, and not part of God’s election, yet their lot can still change! It’s not final, just as in Jeremiah 18!
And that's just the illustration in Jeremiah 18, which Paul is in fact alluding to:
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

So the longsuffering on the vessels of wrath is so that God may remold them into vessels of mercy.

And of course, that's what Peter says that the longsuffering of God is for: 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You may have skimmed over all this, but please understand that when we non-Cals read vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, they're only potential groups wherein one may be found depending on his belief or lack thereof. Even the hardening can be temporary. They are permeable groups with a possible transfer from wrath to mercy, they are not categories wherein individuals have been permanently placed (I'm not denying eternal security in the church age).
You may not agree, and that's fine, but your Calvinistic view of those vessels colours how you read those groups, hence our different interpretations.
There is nothing in text about eternally pre-determined groups, as far as their population.
Rather, for chapters in a row Paul keeps talking about the longsuffering of God transforming vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy - like he did with you and me brother.
That is Bible, it's simple, it's straightforward, and you all believed it at some point before you got all "enlightened".

 

You couldn't read the Bible (ESV)? That is the best English translation which is closest to the Greek. It is interesting that you reject it.

I notice that you change what Paul expresses and state "they're only potential groups."
Was Jacob only potentially loved and Esau only potentially hated?
George, you are working extremely hard to dismiss Paul and reconstruct the passage with your own bias.
The text is clear, yet you attempt to obfuscate.

 

Ok brother.

 

I see you opposed to Divine truth, yet you take the role of one who will set the whole reformed world right. You see what millions have missed, to a point that you see all the puritans and reformers as heretics.
When answers are offered you like many others deflect , or disappear.
We are meant to move forward from these basic truths and build on them. Not make foolish caricatures and attempt to oppose those who would move forward. As a consequence, you come up short and will continue to do so.