Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is - continued...

[atpollard]

The fact that you can not provide any clear contextual scripture to support your view has become obvious.

What hope do I have of communicating with someone that redefines the Greek words as his diatribe progresses. DRAW means DRAW, not INVITE or BEG. If you cannot agree on the obvious, what point is there in offering proof of the subtle.

 

[Silverhair]

Respectfully, the definition of the word was at its softest “impel”


Reading to the end includes a great deal of tap-dancing that somehow redefines a word with a core meaning of “to drag off” to be a non-binding impotent attempt at persuasion.

So I returned to the ACTUAL definition. If they do not come, they were not DRAWN, DRAGGED, LEAD or IMPELLED. Therefore, when God says: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” that DRAW indicates that they WILL come (or it is a NOT DRAW).

It is obvious that you have not taken the time to look at John 6:44 or rather you have ignored what I posted.

Joh 6:44 "No one G3762 can G1410 (G5736) come G2064 (G5629) to G4314 Me G3165 unless G3362 the Father G3962 who G3588 sent G3992 (G5660) Me G3165 draws G1670 (G5661) him G846; ... NKJV+TVM

The word draws G1670 (G5661) is in the subjective mood which as I had pointed out to you before is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur.
The bible shows us that God does not force / impel but He dos use various means "moral suasion" to persuade us to come to Him, be it creation, the Holy Spirit, the gospel. But the person has to respond. We see this clearly stated in Eph 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

You would have seen this if you had just kept reading and then all your confusion would have been cleared up.

But let us look at another scripture that will show you the error of your thinking.
Joh 12:32 "And I G2504, if G1437 I am lifted up G5312 (G5686) from G1537 the earth G1093, will draw G1670 (G5692) all G3956 peoples to G4314 Myself
Here we see the same word but it is now in the indicative mood which is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

Are we to conclude that since Christ was lifted up that all men are drawn to Him, are saved? By the logic that you used in your "Exegesis" of John 6:44 we would have to say Yes.
If John had wanted to say what you have read into the text he would have used the indicative mood.
ἑλκύσω helkysō G1670 Verb - Future Indicative Active
rather than the subjective which he used.
ἑλκύσῃ helkysē G1670 Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Active

Just a bit of study in a Greek interlinear bible would have cleared up your error. If you do not have an interlinear bible you can go to the Blue Letter Bible at Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible

 

[Silverhair]

What hope do I have of communicating with someone that redefines the Greek words as his diatribe progresses. DRAW means DRAW, not INVITE or BEG. If you cannot agree on the obvious, what point is there in offering proof of the subtle.

You are just proving that you have not used the various tools available to you so that you can do a proper bible study. Take the time to educate yourself. You continue to avoid the obvious as you hold to your errant philosophy. Use the Blue Letter Bible Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible. You can know the truth and the truth will set you free from that philosophy.

If you are not willing to help yourself there really is not much hope for you.

 

[JD731]

This will help.
The instrument of drawing in the context of the Father drawing is the Scriptures of the OT which the audience knew well.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Paul the apostle to the gentiles did not use this word "draw (= G1670) a single time in his 13 letters he wrote to us. The OT scriptures were not the instrument to get gentiles saved for obvious reasons. The Father does not draw gentiles. He has chosen a different means to save us after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God (not the Father) hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

This fact can easily be checked out. It is a significant fact.

 

[atpollard]

Paul the apostle to the gentiles did not use this word "draw (= G1670) a single time in his 13 letters he wrote to us.

FYI: Romans was written to us (gentiles) ...

Rom 1:1-13 [KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

 

[JD731]

FYI: Romans was written to us (gentiles) ...

Rom 1:1-13 [KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

The Point??

 

[Silverhair]

FYI: Romans was written to us (gentiles) ...

Rom 1:1-13 [KJV]
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

@atpollard where in any of Paul's writings do you see {draw G1670}? Hint you do not. Where do we find it
5 verses in John Joh_6:44, Joh_12:32, Joh_18:10, Joh_21:6, Joh_21:11
2 verses in Acts Act_16:19, Act_21:30
1 verse in James Jas_2:6

What Rom 1:1-13 tells us is that Paul is writing to believers, the saints, in Rome.

 

[Alan Gross]

The words on the page actually just present a statement of fact.
“Everyone who has heard and learned”
is the same group that “comes to Jesus”.

Back to the Ephesians 2:8-9 argument
about whether the “faith” came from God

8; "For by Grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the Gift of God:

9; "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Is this of any possible help,
in order to be able to see Ephesians 2:8-9?

8; "Because "ye" "are" "saved by Grace" "through faith";
"and that" = Salvation by Grace through faith is "not of yourselves":
("it") = Salvation by Grace through faith "is the Gift of God":

9; God's Gift of Salvation by Grace through faith
is "not of works, lest any man should boast."

or from the man.

“faith” came from God, it looks like to me.

WHY did they hear and learn?
God or man?
It does not say, does it.

THIS SAYS, "GOD";

4 "But God, Who is Rich in Mercy,
for His Great Love wherewith He Loved us,

5 "Even when we were dead in sins,
hath Quickened us together with Christ, (by Grace ye are saved

THIS SAYS, "GOD";

10 "For we are His workmanship,"

IT ALL SAYS, "GOD";

"(8) "By Grace are ye saved through faith".

"--Properly, ye have been saved;
ye were saved at first, and continue in a state of salvation.

"In Ephesians 2:5 this thought is introduced parenthetically,
naturally and irresistibly suggested
by the declaration of the various steps of Regeneration in Christ.

"Even when we were dead in sins,
hath Quickened us together with Christ, (by Grace ye are saved"

"St. Paul now returns to it and works it out, before passing on,
in Ephesians 2:11, to draw out by "wherefore";

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision
by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;"

"the Conclusion from Ephesians 2:1-10;

1 "And you hath He Quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 "Wherein in time past
ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past
in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 "But God, who is Rich in Mercy,
for His Great Love wherewith He Loved us,

5 "Even when we were dead in sins,
hath Quickened us together with Christ, (by Grace ye are saved

6 "And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 "That in the ages to come He might shew
the Exceeding Riches of His Grace in His Kindness toward us
through Christ Jesus.

8 "For by Grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the Gift of God:

9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 "For we are His workmanship,
Created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before Ordained that we should walk in them."

"Remembering how the Epistles were written from dictation,
we may be inclined to see in this passage among others,
an insertion made by the Apostle, on a revision of that already written. . . ."

from: Ephesians 2:8 - Alive with Christ

You believe THEY are responsible

INFINITELY INCORRECT.

I believe that GOD is responsible.

AMEN.

Why is FAITH not included in the “that not of yourself”
when it seems to be speaking of the whole phrase in English?

It is not right and actually crazy to think "faith" is somehow divorced
from the very sentence in which it is contained,
to make some separate false doctrine out of exactly zero nothingness.

8; "For by Grace are ye saved through faith;

“saved by grace” or “saved by grace through faith”?

BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH.

8; "For by Grace are ye saved" + "through faith";

You will NEVER change your mind

Not without God and being "His workmanship", etc.

I am not looking to argue about it.

No way. Nope. It's a done deal. Right there in The Book.

 

[atpollard]

“faith” came from God, it looks like to me.

I agree 100%, but the General Baptists will disagree with us and argue that God gives the “saved by grace” and people provide the “faith”. Therein lies the argument that remains unchanged after 400 years.

 

[atpollard]

The Point??

I apologize.
I misunderstood your point, conflating it with the oft-stated position that Romans 9 is not for gentiles but was only written for the Jews.

From your post, I have no point.
I simply find it irrelevant rather than important.

 

[Alan Gross]

I agree 100%, but the General Baptists will disagree with us and argue that God gives the “saved by grace” and people provide the “faith”. Therein lies the argument that remains unchanged after 400 years.

I say that someone is mixing up REPENTANCE AND PENANCE.

(1) It is absolutely false to say that the "punishing of past sins by fasting, and such like penitential exercises" is a part of the meaning of the Greek word.

(2) It denies the sufficiency of Christ's satisfaction for our sins, in plain contradiction of the Scripture (Cf. Rom. 4:7, 8; 10:4; Heb. 10:14; 1 John 1:7).

"Jesus paid it all; All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain;
He washed it white as snow."

(3) It implies that the temporal acts of the creature can atone for sin. The Bible knows nothing of such a teaching. It teaches that Christ alone could make an atonement.

Even in eternity, the souls in Hell will never be able to atone for sin;
for that reason, there is no end to their punishment.

Surely, then, the song speaks the truth when it says:

"Could my tears forever flow;
Could my zeal no respite know;
These for sin could not atone,
Thou must save and thou alone."

from: https://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf pg.383ff.

 

[atpollard]

Even in eternity, the souls in Hell will never be able to atone for sin;
for that reason, there is no end to their punishment.

While the statement seems logically true, I have a personal view of “why” those in Hell must remain in Hell that is slightly different (and just as much human speculation since only God knows the truth and has not revealed it). Rather than centered on “payment of a debt”, I look to Romans 1:18-32 and the example of God progressively lifting HIS divine restraint upon the “fallen” heart of men.
Romans 1 [NKJV]

• 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, ...
• 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. ...
• 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

If we extend that trend to Hell as God lifting all DIVINE restraint, then the human heart is free to obtain the ultimate rebellion and corruption that it desires. Thus the gates of Hell are, indeed, locked from the inside.

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.” - John 3:19-20 [NKJV]

 

[Alan Gross]

Where I'd like to go with this that you are saying, which I appreciate what you are saying and get, is like I did when I tried to deferenciate and make a distinction between these two;

I say that someone is mixing up REPENTANCE AND PENANCE.

Where, in this case, I see a 'principal determination'
to leverage another level of insight, it would be
1.) to see the 'sinners unrestrained sin' as of course ensuring
their endurance of suffering in Hell will be unlimited,
since their quilt is always increasing incrementally,

and yet, 2.) the actual suffering as an 'act'
is the effect from another initial 'act',
which would be the cause of that suffering, or Punishment,
and that is The Justice of God being activated as the result of
His Law has been transgressed and broken by their sins.

When God is Offended by His LAW BEING BROKEN,
ANS since God is Infinite and Eternal, then any sin against
His Trice-Holy Perfection must and does meet
with a 'debt' that has accrued, and deserves a Punishment
EXACTED FROM GOD'S JUSTICE that also has the eventuality of
the endless endurance of Eternity, also.

I understand a modern sentimentality that seeks to white out
the element of God's Justice concerning Christ's Suffering
and the suffering of the lost in Hell,
leading to a distaste for a belief in The Penal Substitutionary Atonement,
in the minds of some, however, Jesus had to suffer my Hell before I could be Pardoned, for His Sake, and then what...? then,
once I've been Pardoned for my sins, I could then be looked upon
by God the Father as having no sin charged to my account
whereupon I could then be FREELY JUSTIFIED as if I'd not broken His Law.

Whereas, the lost sinner, who has broken His Law and died in their sins
have that debt of sin as a Lawbreaker who HAS TO BE PUNISHED, for
God to remain Just.

 

[Alan Gross]

"God cannot do anything contrary
to His Nature and The Perfections of it;
as for instance:
He cannot do anything contrary to His Justice and Holiness,
for He is without iniquity;

"nor to His Truth and Faithfulness, for He cannot lie;

"nor indeed, to any other Perfection of His Nature,
for He cannot deny Himself.

"If therefore The Decree of Reprobation is contrary to the Nature
and Perfections of God, it ought to be rejected
as against The Will of God
because the Nature and Will of God never contradict each other;

"and yet it is certain, that Reprobation is according to The Will of God;

"Whom He Will, He hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18, 22).

"And, what if God, willing to show His Wrath,
and make his power known, etc.

"Besides, His Making or Appointing
"the wicked for the day of evil"
(Prov. 16:4), is for Himself, for His Own Glory,
as well as His Making or Appointing all other things:

so that Reprobation,
or appointing the wicked to Destruction,
as it is not contrary to The Will of God,
so neither to the Perfections of His Nature, and The Glory of them."

from: Reprobation - John Gill - Section 1

The Decree of Reprobation
is plainly consistent with the Nature and Will of God.

the whole "Bible interpreting the Bible"

This is a direct quote from Genesis chapter 25

where it says explicitly that there are two nations in Rebecca's womb...

even

if it didn't explicitly state that it's talking about two nations

So, is there someplace in the Bible where there is a verse;
"where it says explicitly", something, "even if it didn't explicitly state" anything?

That's the argument?

Are you sure you want to say,
The Bible, "says explicitly" what The Bible "didn't explicitly state"?

Whichever way you're trying to say all this, note for your learning:
"The CONTENTS that we're talking about, Including All the People
Who Made Up those ENTIRE Two Nations (throughout the years)
WERE NOT CONTAINED
WITHIN THE CONFINES OF REBEKAH'S WOMB.

Don't try to tell me you think 'you know that'.

You don't, or you wouldn't have any O.P.s titled anything like;
"Romans 9 Isn't What You Think It Is..."
...

Romans 9 is not about predestination at all.
Paul didn't start talking about Israel and then suddenly
change the subject to predestination and then just as suddenly
change the subject back again to Israel.

Yeah, although it looks like you lean away from almost everything between

Romans 9:1-5

and

Romans 9:30-33

except for the brief misinterpretation of

Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

just because of that very reason that
you are not willing to allow God to write what He wanted
the way He wanted.

So, you skip all of it.

The whole chapter is on one issue and one issue only.

And, it is stated here;

Romans 9 is about predestination
and that it has a lot to say about how or why or whether someone is saved.