Romans 9

[atpollard]

If you're not familiar with Romans 9 in the context of TULIP, it's a favorite place where the TULIP dreamers go thinking they have proven unconditional election

Funny, I would have gone to Romans 8 where “Foreknew” is a WHO (relational with specific people) and not a WHAT (their future decision) that repeatedly emphasizes what God does.

 

[Charlie24]

While I agree with the above, there is another "seed" I think you're not seeing.
Something defined in the phrase, "children of promise" in Galatians 4, Charlie., which is also mentioned in Romans 9.

Doesn't tell me what I need to know, Charlie...I'm sorry.
You should be able to determine, from other parts of the Bible, who the "children of the promise" ( who are counted for the seed ) are.

Again, please see Galatians 4.
It speaks of who believers in Christ are.


By the way, I have to get up early. for work
I look forward to reading your line by line understanding of the passage tomorrow.

Have a good evening.

Dave G, you cannot understand Rom. 9 without understanding the rest of Romans and put it together.

I will say it again, the TULIP dreamers will only stick to a certain passage of Scripture they can manipulate.

Exactly what you're doing here, as all of you do.

 

[Charlie24]

Dave G, you cannot understand Rom. 9 without understanding the rest of Romans and put it together.

I will say it again, the TULIP dreamers will only stick to a certain passage of Scripture they can manipulate.

Exactly what you're doing here, as all of you do.

Nothing I say will be considered by you, I try and you place a roadblock, the signature of the TULIP dreamers.

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing I say will be considered by you, I try and you place a roadblock, the signature of the TULIP dreamers.

You are afraid of taking one page at a time and discuss it as I tried to do.

I think you're lost in Romans and only know what your so called scholars have told you!

 

[cjab]

Paul is not speaking of an unconditional election, but the election standing by His foreknowledge of faith.

Undoubtedly you also infer, and which IMO is preferable, " foreknowledge of a capacity for faith." For foreknowledge of faith infers election is somehow a reward for displaying faith, which can't be right, as election is an election to faith.

All men are ultimately treated by God as having the capacity for faith - judgement is meted out on those who don't manifest it cf. Rom 1. The question remains as an issue of what it is that God foreknows about us that merits election & God granting us faith by grace.

And the truth is, it's not open to even Christians to know it, for concerning the reprobate, "God will judge those outside the church" 1 Cor 5;13. Lack of faith is between them and God, and it remains between God and them. Only in respect of ourselves, may we be given some inkling of why we were shown mercy (cf. 1 Tim 1:13), but not so as to displace God's sovereignty in election.

As to the reprobate, we may guess that the Pharaoh of Moses's day had been an inveterate persecutor from youth, such that God chose chose him as a vessel for his wrath. But we cannot pretend to displace God's knowledge or his choice. We know only that the ever wicked Pharaoh acted in conformity with God's sovereignty and His decision to elect him to wrath.

For the bible prohibits confounding "works" with "election." In Rom 9:12 Paul says that election isn't based on reward/recompense for works: οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων (not from works), which seems to rule out reverse election of the kind you suggest, i.e. imputing election based on foreknowledge of the very works in which faith is manifest. Such foreknowledge is possessed by God, of course. But ultimately it cannot displace whatever else election is based on, which man cannot fathom.

Be careful not to make the opposite error to fatalism, which is to proclaim that you "know" what God's election is based on, whereas fatalists claim to "know" what God's election is not based on - they say it isn't based on anything intrinsic to a man, which is clearly wrong, as foreknowledge embraces absolutely everything. It is pretending to "know" that is un-biblical. Both positions are caught by Rom 9:20, and the impermissibility of talking back to God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I did a study on romans 9 and led my home church in a teaching concerning romans 9 a few years ago. I will gladly share my notes.

In my study I did both the calvin view (fatalism) and another view (non fatalistic) since the calvin view was shared about I will withhold this part of my notes. and start with another view which started with how I came to that view. Sadly it will be a cut and paste. if we need to open another thread I will. it is also quite lengthy..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 9

Gods sovereignty​

The dilemma – 2 biblical ideas that have clashed for many years because there is tension between them

• Scripture teaches God is sovereign – (if everything that happens is God’s will, in what sense do our choices matter)
• Scripture teaches humans have freewill choice – (if God’s will can be thwarted by man’s choice, in what sense is he sovereign

These two apposing ideas create a problem

God is sovereign -> ? <- People can chose

How can they both be right?

Gods sovereignty is the most clearly taught concepts in scripture

Is 46: 10 – Declaring the end from the beginning, and from Ancient times things which have not been done, saying my purpose will be established, and I will accomplish my good pleasure

However, Human choice is also one of the most clearly taught concepts in scripture

Matt 23: 37 – Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a Hen gathers her chicks under her wings, But you were unwilling

Calvin theologians emphasize God’s sovereignty – While Arminian theologians emphasize man’s free will

The rest of us can get caught up in this debate which has caused many fights over the centuries.

The biblical resolution in my view is that God is sovereign…And yet he allows humans to make meaningful free will decision.

Ps 115: 3 – Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases……

Ps 115: 16 The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, But the earth he has given to the sons of men

This brings us to Romans 9. Romans 9 is used as a proof text for double predestination or determinism by the Calvin side. But is there an alternate way to read romans 9?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hermeneutics: I want to concentrate on two basic hermeneutical principles.

• Historical Context
• How would the people in the day interpret the passage
• What is going on in the time it is written that could be being addressed, ie, historical context
• OT perspective. Paul quotes a lot of OT passages, We need to go to those OT passages to see in context what is being quoted (one major mistake people do is to quote something taken out of context. To make it appear it is supporting your belief. An example would be in writing a paper, you quote an author because the words which she wrote appear to support what you are saying, Yet when someone researches and goes back to the quote. You are found to be taking the person out of context. Making her say something she never said. This not only can bring about legal issues. But it puts your own reliability in question.

Looking at the time of this writing, Paul is writing to the roman church. This church is being bombarded with I believe to be two viewpoints.

• Religious Jews:
• According to religious Jews, God chose to save children of Abraham by the laws he gave Moses. Ie, they were saved by birth, Although a gentile could be saved, They were constantly insisting only by following their stringent set of rules. At this time in the church, they were trying to instill these rules into the church, or saying the church was wrong because it did not follow these laws.
• Jewish and Gentile believers:
• Jewish and Gentile believers alike had to wonder. Were these Jews right.. did God make a mistake in chosing them? The OT shows he chose Israel to bless the world. Now Israel was being cast aside.. Why?? because God screwed up in choosing the Jewish nation. Did he make a mistake?

Lets see