Romans 9

[atpollard]

If you're not familiar with Romans 9 in the context of TULIP, it's a favorite place where the TULIP dreamers go thinking they have proven unconditional election

Funny, I would have gone to Romans 8 where “Foreknew” is a WHO (relational with specific people) and not a WHAT (their future decision) that repeatedly emphasizes what God does.

 

[Charlie24]

While I agree with the above, there is another "seed" I think you're not seeing.
Something defined in the phrase, "children of promise" in Galatians 4, Charlie., which is also mentioned in Romans 9.

Doesn't tell me what I need to know, Charlie...I'm sorry.
You should be able to determine, from other parts of the Bible, who the "children of the promise" ( who are counted for the seed ) are.

Again, please see Galatians 4.
It speaks of who believers in Christ are.


By the way, I have to get up early. for work
I look forward to reading your line by line understanding of the passage tomorrow.

Have a good evening.

Dave G, you cannot understand Rom. 9 without understanding the rest of Romans and put it together.

I will say it again, the TULIP dreamers will only stick to a certain passage of Scripture they can manipulate.

Exactly what you're doing here, as all of you do.

 

[Charlie24]

Dave G, you cannot understand Rom. 9 without understanding the rest of Romans and put it together.

I will say it again, the TULIP dreamers will only stick to a certain passage of Scripture they can manipulate.

Exactly what you're doing here, as all of you do.

Nothing I say will be considered by you, I try and you place a roadblock, the signature of the TULIP dreamers.

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing I say will be considered by you, I try and you place a roadblock, the signature of the TULIP dreamers.

You are afraid of taking one page at a time and discuss it as I tried to do.

I think you're lost in Romans and only know what your so called scholars have told you!

 

[cjab]

Paul is not speaking of an unconditional election, but the election standing by His foreknowledge of faith.

Undoubtedly you also infer, and which IMO is preferable, " foreknowledge of a capacity for faith." For foreknowledge of faith infers election is somehow a reward for displaying faith, which can't be right, as election is an election to faith.

All men are ultimately treated by God as having the capacity for faith - judgement is meted out on those who don't manifest it cf. Rom 1. The question remains as an issue of what it is that God foreknows about us that merits election & God granting us faith by grace.

And the truth is, it's not open to even Christians to know it, for concerning the reprobate, "God will judge those outside the church" 1 Cor 5;13. Lack of faith is between them and God, and it remains between God and them. Only in respect of ourselves, may we be given some inkling of why we were shown mercy (cf. 1 Tim 1:13), but not so as to displace God's sovereignty in election.

As to the reprobate, we may guess that the Pharaoh of Moses's day had been an inveterate persecutor from youth, such that God chose chose him as a vessel for his wrath. But we cannot pretend to displace God's knowledge or his choice. We know only that the ever wicked Pharaoh acted in conformity with God's sovereignty and His decision to elect him to wrath.

For the bible prohibits confounding "works" with "election." In Rom 9:12 Paul says that election isn't based on reward/recompense for works: οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων (not from works), which seems to rule out reverse election of the kind you suggest, i.e. imputing election based on foreknowledge of the very works in which faith is manifest. Such foreknowledge is possessed by God, of course. But ultimately it cannot displace whatever else election is based on, which man cannot fathom.

Be careful not to make the opposite error to fatalism, which is to proclaim that you "know" what God's election is based on, whereas fatalists claim to "know" what God's election is not based on - they say it isn't based on anything intrinsic to a man, which is clearly wrong, as foreknowledge embraces absolutely everything. It is pretending to "know" that is un-biblical. Both positions are caught by Rom 9:20, and the impermissibility of talking back to God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I did a study on romans 9 and led my home church in a teaching concerning romans 9 a few years ago. I will gladly share my notes.

In my study I did both the calvin view (fatalism) and another view (non fatalistic) since the calvin view was shared about I will withhold this part of my notes. and start with another view which started with how I came to that view. Sadly it will be a cut and paste. if we need to open another thread I will. it is also quite lengthy..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 9

Gods sovereignty​

The dilemma – 2 biblical ideas that have clashed for many years because there is tension between them

• Scripture teaches God is sovereign – (if everything that happens is God’s will, in what sense do our choices matter)
• Scripture teaches humans have freewill choice – (if God’s will can be thwarted by man’s choice, in what sense is he sovereign

These two apposing ideas create a problem

God is sovereign -> ? <- People can chose

How can they both be right?

Gods sovereignty is the most clearly taught concepts in scripture

Is 46: 10 – Declaring the end from the beginning, and from Ancient times things which have not been done, saying my purpose will be established, and I will accomplish my good pleasure

However, Human choice is also one of the most clearly taught concepts in scripture

Matt 23: 37 – Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a Hen gathers her chicks under her wings, But you were unwilling

Calvin theologians emphasize God’s sovereignty – While Arminian theologians emphasize man’s free will

The rest of us can get caught up in this debate which has caused many fights over the centuries.

The biblical resolution in my view is that God is sovereign…And yet he allows humans to make meaningful free will decision.

Ps 115: 3 – Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases……

Ps 115: 16 The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, But the earth he has given to the sons of men

This brings us to Romans 9. Romans 9 is used as a proof text for double predestination or determinism by the Calvin side. But is there an alternate way to read romans 9?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hermeneutics: I want to concentrate on two basic hermeneutical principles.

• Historical Context
• How would the people in the day interpret the passage
• What is going on in the time it is written that could be being addressed, ie, historical context
• OT perspective. Paul quotes a lot of OT passages, We need to go to those OT passages to see in context what is being quoted (one major mistake people do is to quote something taken out of context. To make it appear it is supporting your belief. An example would be in writing a paper, you quote an author because the words which she wrote appear to support what you are saying, Yet when someone researches and goes back to the quote. You are found to be taking the person out of context. Making her say something she never said. This not only can bring about legal issues. But it puts your own reliability in question.

Looking at the time of this writing, Paul is writing to the roman church. This church is being bombarded with I believe to be two viewpoints.

• Religious Jews:
• According to religious Jews, God chose to save children of Abraham by the laws he gave Moses. Ie, they were saved by birth, Although a gentile could be saved, They were constantly insisting only by following their stringent set of rules. At this time in the church, they were trying to instill these rules into the church, or saying the church was wrong because it did not follow these laws.
• Jewish and Gentile believers:
• Jewish and Gentile believers alike had to wonder. Were these Jews right.. did God make a mistake in chosing them? The OT shows he chose Israel to bless the world. Now Israel was being cast aside.. Why?? because God screwed up in choosing the Jewish nation. Did he make a mistake?

Lets see

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 9: 1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all nblessed forever. Amen.

• This is the opening statement paul is making in this section where he pretty much makes a pause in what he was discussing, and starts a new section. (rom 9 - 11)
• This opening statement is the basis for the whole section paul is going to discuss for what will turn out to be three chapters. The context of this discussion is the children of Isreal. Paul’s blood relatives, His nation.
• I firmly believe Paul had to rebut both thinking's above. He is affirming, the truth about Israel. Yes they were all these things,
• They are the adopted
• They are the Glory
• To them were given the covenants
• To them were given the Law
• To them were given the Worship (of God)
• To them were given the Promises (to them and only them were given specific promises)
• To them belong the fathers
• And FROM them came the Christ from which salvation was given to the world
• Paul is also affirming that the jews have been cut off. And this distresses paul, To the point he is willing to spend eternity in hell if they could all be saved.. This is how much Paul loved his national brothers and sisters.
• The fact paul would be willing to sacrifice his whole salvation for the salvation of his flesh nation is crucial in understanding what Paul is about to say. For it gives us the context in order to properly interpret what he is saying. (it makes no sense for paul to discuss sacrificing his own personal salvation if he is getting ready to talk about people who are not his flesh brothers and sisters or national Israel, who were given all those things, and have now been cut off)
• Context –
• Pauls grief for the nation of Israel
• Gods plan to rescue mankind
• Israel was God’s chosen nation through whom he would work

 

[Eternally Grateful]

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed.

• Failed at what? If National Israel is the context, as I believe, then is paul asking the question I proposed. Has God failed in establishing Israel? Has He failed in choosing the wrong people? Or Has He failed in some other way?
• In my view here Going off context and Paul’s words. I believe Paul is addressing the question. Did God go wrong in his choosing of Israel. And he is going to go step by step in addressing why God did not fail.
• We know much of Israel had denied Christ
• We know God told them he would take the kingdom from them, and give it to someone else
• Matt 21: 43 – I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit

Further context. The next phase of Gods plan: Working through a new nation - those who follow Christ no matter what their nationality is (jew or gentile)

Objection. That’s not fair – God is breaking his promise to israel. (is he?)

Romans 9: 14 – What shall we say then, there is no injustice with God is there?

My proposed context – Paul is making the case from the OT that God has the right to change Israel’s status and work through the church for a period of time, in fact it was prophesied this would happen – He will also counter the objections and general misguided sayings of the Jews.

In my view, non of this about personal salvation

Paul will make his case using 5 well known OT stories

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Story 1 Abraham

• God initially made the promise to Abraham
• The argument of the jews was they got an automatic in because they were chosen, and they were given the law to be saved

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham obecause they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

• Not every physical descendent of Abraham is a recipient of Gods promise to work through his nation
• Isaac – Jacob – Nation of Israel
• Ishmael – Ishmaelites
• God will chose not to work through some of Abrahams descendants

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Story 2 – Jacob and Esau

8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

• Paul speaks of Isaacs offspring
• Gen 25: 23 – And the lord said to her, Two nations are in your womb,
• The Context continues to be the election of Israel
• 2 nations – Jacob – Israel/Esau – Edom
• Jacob – Israel was not chosen (elect) because they were righteous. They were chosen before either one had done anything good or bad.
• They were chosen not because of works, but of him who calls
• Were they chosen for salvation? Did God condemn one to hell before born?

Lets continue, what did paul say the purpose was

12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

• Again in context. Go to the OT story
• Gen 25: 23 two peoples shall be separated from your body; one people shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger.
• It must be noted. Esau never served Jacob, Nor was Jacob stronger than Esau – in fact. Esau came and begged his brother for forgiveness.
• It is biblical found that Edom was weaker than Israel. And in fact. Edom for a time served the nation of Israel.
• Again, Context Is Gods choosing of the nation. Gods elect.. not as Israel said because of the righteousness of the fathers. But through gods sovereign decree. God sovereignty chose to work through Israel not Edom

continuing

13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

• God hated baby esau in the womb?
• Again context. Malachi 1: 1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi, I have loved you, says the lord. Yet you say, in which way have you loved us, was not Esau Jacobs brother, Yet Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated, and laid his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness
• Context again is two nations. God loved, or held one special. He hated the other or did not hold it as special.
• Hebrew Idiom loved – hated is a known idiom to show that God loved or held one above another
• Example is Luke 14: 26 - 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
• Matt 10: 37: He who loves father or mother MORE THAN ME is not worthy of me, and he who Loves his son or daughter MORE THAN ME is not worthy of me
• God did not tell us to hate our family. God calls us to love and honor our parent’s spouse and children. So we see this idiom in context. We are to love God more than our families.
• In context here. Paul is telling the roman church God loved Israel more because he chose them as nation through his sovereign choice for a purpose.
• Point – Gods sovereignly chose which nation he would use to preserve his work and fulfill his promise/plan

Review – Many rabbis taught that their national election was based on the merit of the patriarchs. Paul point is that it is based only on Gods sovereign mercy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Moves us to the third story

15. for he says to moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion,” so then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

• He said to Moses – Ex 33: 19
• 19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
• Moses asked for compassion and mercy, And asked God if he would show himself
• Moses was a righteous man, Does this mean God is obligated to Bless him? God makes it clear. This is not why God will bless moses or Israel (remember also. God said he would wipe out Israel and start over with Moses. And Moses begged for mercy for the people)
• Point – Gods preservation of Israel was an act of sheer mercy
• Point – Even one of the patriarchs of Israel could not influence Gods national strategy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Continuing 4th story

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

• View, Some, Like Pharaoh, never have any chance to be saved or accepted by God but are created for destruction
• View – Some might be trying to respond to God, but God hardens their heart so they will never believe and they will go to hell (their destination)
• 2 Pet 3: 9 Not wishing that any should perish, but all to come to repentance
• 1 Tim 2: 4 who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth
• Again, Using context of Gods choosing of Israel – God says he chose Pharoah that he may show his power in him and by doing this he may declare his name in all the earth
• Egypt was the superpower at the time
• Pharoah hardened his own heart many times
• God hardened not only pharaohs heart. But the whole Egyptian people. For a purpose
• Ex 14: 16 – as for you lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel will go through the midst of the sea on dry land. And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. 18 Then the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gained honor for Myself over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.”
• God chose not to send a person to hell. But that through his sovereign will. He will show his power over the most powerful king on earth, and his power will be proclaimed throughout the world
• Harden. The word in Hebrew means to strengthen – God did not over rule pharaohs will. He strengthened his own (pharaoh's) desire so he would be confident to do his own will. Which was in alignment with Gods purpose for his life.
• Pharoah was never a believer, And God did not force him to do anything, Pharoah did everything of his own free will
• conclusion
  • Pharoah was unable to thwart Gods plan to work through a nation (Israel)
  • God used Pharoah’s own power and will to not only destroy him, but to show his power to the world. And show again, He chose a nation he separated to himself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This brings us to the final scene The potter and the clay

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Does this mean some are made for heaven and some for hell. And who are we do question God and his will?

OT Passage - Jer 18: 1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

1. Again, this is about God’s choice to advance his plan through a nation
2. Israel was the clay. God was trying to mold
3. Israel was in sin, and becoming marred in Gods hand.
4. God is telling him 2 things.
A. He has the right to destroy the clump and start over
B He has the right to take it from them and give it to someone else
5. His warning to Israel is YOUR role is conditioned on YOUR obedience to me
6. Israel is being made into 2 vessels
A. National Israel – to whom are given the promises and the gift but are today enemies concerning the gospel (see rom 11)
B. Spiritual Israel – neither jew or gentile. The nation to whom will produce fruit

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Charlie24]

Continuing 4th story

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

• View, Some, Like Pharaoh, never have any chance to be saved or accepted by God but are created for destruction
• View – Some might be trying to respond to God, but God hardens their heart so they will never believe and they will go to hell (their destination)
• 2 Pet 3: 9 Not wishing that any should perish, but all to come to repentance
• 1 Tim 2: 4 who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth
• Again, Using context of Gods choosing of Israel – God says he chose Pharoah that he may show his power in him and by doing this he may declare his name in all the earth
• Egypt was the superpower at the time
• Pharoah hardened his own heart many times
• God hardened not only pharaohs heart. But the whole Egyptian people. For a purpose
• Ex 14: 16 – as for you lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel will go through the midst of the sea on dry land. And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. 18 Then the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gained honor for Myself over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.”
• God chose not to send a person to hell. But that through his sovereign will. He will show his power over the most powerful king on earth, and his power will be proclaimed throughout the world
• Harden. The word in Hebrew means to strengthen – God did not over rule pharaohs will. He strengthened his own (pharaoh's) desire so he would be confident to do his own will. Which was in alignment with Gods purpose for his life.
• Pharoah was never a believer, And God did not force him to do anything, Pharoah did everything of his own free will
• conclusion
  • Pharoah was unable to thwart Gods plan to work through a nation (Israel)
  • God used Pharoah’s own power and will to not only destroy him, but to show his power to the world. And show again, He chose a nation he separated to himself

I totally agree with you here, EG.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul continues that this was even prophesied in three places in the OT so this should not have been a surprise to the jews, and explains that God did not fail. He knew it would happen and said it would before it did



25 As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

29 And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I totally agree with you here, EG.

hopefully people read, I saw the other person was asking from someone to give another view. so I did

 

[Charlie24]

Undoubtedly you also infer, and which IMO is preferable, " foreknowledge of a capacity for faith." For foreknowledge of faith infers election is somehow a reward for displaying faith, which can't be right, as election is an election to faith.

All men are ultimately treated by God as having the capacity for faith - judgement is meted out on those who don't manifest it cf. Rom 1. The question remains as an issue of what it is that God foreknows about us that merits election & God granting us faith by grace.

And the truth is, it's not open to even Christians to know it, for concerning the reprobate, "God will judge those outside the church" 1 Cor 5;13. Lack of faith is between them and God, and it remains between God and them. Only in respect of ourselves, may we be given some inkling of why we were shown mercy (cf. 1 Tim 1:13), but not so as to displace God's sovereignty in election.

As to the reprobate, we may guess that the Pharaoh of Moses's day had been an inveterate persecutor from youth, such that God chose chose him as a vessel for his wrath. But we cannot pretend to displace God's knowledge or his choice. We know only that the ever wicked Pharaoh acted in conformity with God's sovereignty and His decision to elect him to wrath.

For the bible prohibits confounding "works" with "election." In Rom 9:12 Paul says that election isn't based on reward/recompense for works: οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων (not from works), which seems to rule out reverse election of the kind you suggest, i.e. imputing election based on foreknowledge of the very works in which faith is manifest. Such foreknowledge is possessed by God, of course. But ultimately it cannot displace whatever else election is based on, which man cannot fathom.

Be careful not to make the opposite error to fatalism, which is to proclaim that you "know" what God's election is based on, whereas fatalists claim to "know" what God's election is not based on - they say it isn't based on anything intrinsic to a man, which is clearly wrong, as foreknowledge embraces absolutely everything. It is pretending to "know" that is un-biblical. Both positions are caught by Rom 9:20, and the impermissibility of talking back to God.

I think it's very simple "what God foreknows about us that merits election."

Rom. 4:3-5

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

[Charlie24]

I think it's very simple "what God foreknows about us that merits election."

Rom. 4:3-5

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

God also foreknows if we we will have a true heart to repentance. As Peter said,

"Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..."