Romans 9

[Eternally Grateful]

I do, and I understand the rest of Romans as well.

Charlie, let's agree not to accuse one another of manipulating Scripture, OK?
I see what I see because that is how I read and understand it for myself.

Respectfully, all I was asking for was a repetition of what I did for you.
Nothing more, and nothing less.

Are you willing to do what I did?
If so, then I look forward to seeing how yours and mine differs in the details.

So far what I've seen in this thread are a few other posts from people that essentially give summaries;
While, for the most part, they avoid the text directly.
They also have avoided ( perhaps unintentionally ) doing exactly what I did...
Which I confess puzzles me a bit.

On a side note,
This isn't me trying to humiliate you... it's me wanting to see how you understand each line of the passage for yourself and comparing it to mine, in each and every detail.

excuse me sir. please share where I ignored the text directly.

and how did I avoid what you did?

I posted the text and gave a summation.

I also quoted the OT text that Paul quoted to put it in context.

I will await your reply.. but will say I am saddened and offended at this comment

 

[Charlie24]

excuse me sir. please share where I ignored the text directly.

and how did I avoid what you did?

I posted the text and gave a summation.

I also quoted the OT text that Paul quoted to put it in context.

I will await your reply.. but will say I am saddened and offended at this comment

EG, I think that post from Dave G was for me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

13) Now comes the part it seems many don't like the sound of... The Lord tells us that He specifically loved Jacob and hated Esau ( see Malachi 1:2-3 ).
14) With this in mind, what shall we, as believers, then say? Is God unrighteous to love Jacob and to hate Esau? No.
15) The statement is made from the Lord ( see Exodus 33:19 ), " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".
16) So then His mercy and compassion is not of "him who wills" ( our own individual will ), neither is it of "him who runs" ( the person who makes an effort ), but it is entirely of God who shows His mercy.

there is a major issue with this summation.

1. No one hates the sound of this. if they interpret it correctly
2. You noted correctly that it was a quote from Malachi, however you failed to mention it is not two babies which God spoke of. but it was 2 nations (Israel and Edom)
3. You also failed in context to understand 2 nations are in your womb. the older will serve the younger, And if you would have studied you would have seen Esau NEVER served Jacob. if anything it was the opposite.


anyway I explained this in great detail in my discussion of this passage above..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, I think that post from Dave G was for me.

it was, But the below comments were directed at me, If he did not mean me, he is free to show us who he meant.

So far what I've seen in this thread are a few other posts from people that essentially give summaries;
While, for the most part, they avoid the text directly.
They also have avoided ( perhaps unintentionally ) doing exactly what I did...
Which I confess puzzles me a bit.

 

[Charlie24]

it was, But the below comments were directed at me, If he did not mean me, he is free to show us who he meant.

Oh, ok, I didn't see that one.

That one could have also been directed to me, I'm not sure.

Dave G was pestering me to give an outline on Rom. 9 and I was reluctant.

I have this condition in my life now, most folks call it laziness.

But I gave in and started it last night, will finish it today sometime when my condition allows.

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe you had better rethink that, BF.

1 Peter 1:1-2

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Lol, thoses verses doestn say that !

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh, ok, I didn't see that one.

That one could have also been directed to me, I'm not sure.

Dave G was pestering me to give an outline on Rom. 9 and I was reluctant.

I have this condition in my life now, most folks call it laziness.

But I gave in and started it last night, will finish it today sometime when my condition allows.

its all good. Like I said if I have to I can open another thread.

I just looked. from what I see. I am the only one who gave any account of romans 9 be it a summation or doing what he did (actually post the scripture and give a view of what it said) . so in fact his comment as I see it was solely directed to me.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol, thoses verses doestn say that !

Of course they don't, BF.

What was I thinking?

 

[Brightfame52]

Of course they don't, BF.

What was I thinking?

Right what was you thinking ? Furthermore God sees all men in Adam as dead in sin !

 

[Charlie24]

Right what was you thinking ? Furthermore God sees all men in Adam as dead in sin !

I thought Peter said, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." 1 Peter 1:2

But you said it doesn't say that, so I must be wrong.

 

[Brightfame52]

I thought Peter said, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." 1 Peter 1:2

But you said it doesn't say that, so I must be wrong.

He did write "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"

 

[Dave G]

But the below comments were directed at me, If he did not mean me, he is free to show us who he meant.

It was, and it wasn't meant as an offense.
But to me, what you posted was essentially a summation;

The format probably threw me off a bit, so if I'm mistaken, please forgive me.

As for @Charlie24 , I'll spend more time responding to this thread as I'm able...
Things going on IRL that need attention.

 

[Charlie24]

19 Paul knows exactly how the Jews will respond to what he has said. He sets forth questions that he knows they will ask, and Paul answers them.

"you will then say then unto me, why does He yet find fault?" "for who has resisted His will?"

Paul is referring to man finding fault with God, and they will act innocent in claiming they have not resisted God's will.

20 Paul now answers the questions, "shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast thou made me this way?" Paul is showing them their contention against God, their rebellion against God. The choosing of their own way outside of God's will.

21 Now Paul shows them that God as the Creator has the authority to do as He pleases. He shows them God is a Spirit, and they are the clay, the difference in Deity and Dust.

"Hath not the Potter the power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"
Going back to the question as to why God made man this way, God knew when He created man he would fall. He knew He would prepare a Redeemer for lost man with some accepting Him (to honor) and most rejecting Him (to dishonor).

For God to obtain what He desired in His creation, it was necessary for God to make man the way he was made. A free moral agent to choose to love God of His own free will, not as Israel who chose their own way apart from God's will.

God made man and predestined him with free will, and all men will fall out to "honor" or "dishonor."

22 Paul now brings the "longsuffering" of God in the picture.

By the fact of existing "vessels of dishonor" God has the right to show His wrath toward disobedient man. But yet, He endures with much longsuffering these "vessels of dishonor."

This is just the opposite of TULIP! If these "vessels of dishonor" are fitted for destruction, what is the point of God's longsuffering with them? The longsuffering of God is actually the mercy of God extended to rebellious man for an unknown period of time. A period of time of His choosing through His foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2 KJV
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Whether we like it or not, agree or not, the Elect are chosen by the foreknowledge of God. Also through His foreknowledge He strives with much longsuffering the "vessels of dishonor" showing them His mercy that will be shown to them at the Judgment.

23 "And that He might make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of mercy."
God bears with much longsuffering with the "vessels of dishonor" AND He also will make known the riches of His glory to the "vessels of mercy."

"which He had afore prepared unto glory" God chooses His elect through His foreknowledge, knowing beforehand they will believe. He predestined before the foundation of the world these "to be conformed into the image of Christ" through His plan of redemption.

Ongoing??

 

[Dave G]

@Charlie24,
Picking things up at Verse 15 ( and getting a bit more detailed in where I see our differences in understanding ):

I agree with what you've said to an extent, but I see nowhere in either Exodus or this passage where Moses "met the Lord's requirements of faith";
Rather, I have a feeling that you're possibly bringing this conclusion into both of the passages from somewhere else...
Perhaps something said in the Gospels or earlier in Romans itself?

In verse 16, you again refer to man meeting God's "conditions", when there's nothing in the passage itself to indicate to me that there are any "conditions" to be met.
God "laying down the rules and man meeting those conditions" is something I clearly see in the Old Testament under the terms of the Law that God gave to Moses...
But I myself do not see anything like this essentially meritorious system, under the New Testament in Christ's blood.
Is there an understanding of faith and a person being credited with righteouesness, again, being carried over from somewhere else...such as Romans 4?

By verse 17, I'm seeing you connect Pharoah and his will having been hardened by God, to Pharoah not meeting God's conditions...when I don't see either Exodus or this passage indicating any of this.
That mankind does harden ( and has hardened ) our hearts against God, is definitely something that I do see from the Scriptures;
But I also see, when reading Exodus carefully, God first declaring to Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart specifically so that he would not let Israel go.

That the Lord gave Pharoah chance after chance is obvious to me from the text of Exodus...
But firmly fixed in my mind is the fact that the Lord first told Moses the reason why Pharoah would not let Israel go, and is emphasized here:

" And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: " ( Exodus 10:1 ).

Time after time we are told that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart...and a few times we are told that Pharoah himself hardened his own heart.
Yet, I see a reason that the Lord did the hardening:

" And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land." ( Exodus 11:9 ).

Finally by verse 18, I see how you conclude that gaining God's mercy and compassion are about man meeting God's conditions, as that appears repeatedly throughout your understanding of the text.
Again, I'm assuming that this idea is brought in, already in mind, from somewhere else in Romans and other parts of God's word, but you've not made that clear to me as yet.


To be continued...

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24,
Picking things up at Verse 15 ( and getting a bit more detailed in where I see our differences in understanding ):

I agree with what you've said to an extent, but I see nowhere in either Exodus or this passage where Moses "met the Lord's requirements of faith";
Rather, I have a feeling that you're possibly bringing this conclusion into both of the passages from somewhere else...
Perhaps something said in the Gospels or earlier in Romans itself?

In verse 16, you again refer to man meeting God's "conditions", when there's nothing in the passage itself to indicate to me that there are any "conditions" to be met.
God "laying down the rules and man meeting those conditions" is something I clearly see in the Old Testament under the terms of the Law that God gave to Moses...
But I myself do not see anything like this essentially meritorious system, under the New Testament in Christ's blood.
Is there an understanding of faith and a person being credited with righteouesness, again, being carried over from somewhere else...such as Romans 4?

By verse 17, I'm seeing you connect Pharoah and his will having been hardened by God, to Pharoah not meeting God's conditions...when I don't see either Exodus or this passage indicating any of this.
That mankind does harden ( and has hardened ) our hearts against God, is definitely something that I do see from the Scriptures;
But I also see, when reading Exodus carefully, God first declaring to Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart specifically so that he would not let Israel go.

That the Lord gave Pharoah chance after chance is obvious to me from the text of Exodus...
But firmly fixed in my mind is the fact that the Lord first told Moses the reason why Pharoah would not let Israel go, and is emphasized here:

" And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: " ( Exodus 10:1 ).

Time after time we are told that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart...and a few times we are told that Pharoah himself hardened his own heart.
Yet, I see a reason that the Lord did the hardening:

" And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land." ( Exodus 11:9 ).

Finally by verse 18, I see how you conclude that gaining God's mercy and compassion are about man meeting God's conditions, as that appears repeatedly throughout your understanding of the text.
Again, I'm assuming that this idea is brought in, already in mind, from somewhere else in Romans and other parts of God's word, but you've not made that clear to me as yet.


To be continued...

Let's take your first paragraph and focus on it first.

Moses was the "Man of God" his faith is evident in Scripture and cannot be denied.

When Paul gave the example of Moses' rebellion to go any further until God fulfilled his request, it was in contrast to the example of Pharaoh who rebelled against God.

Moses was a believer a "vessel of honor" and God granted his request based on his faith.

Pharaoh was a "vessel of dishonor" and was given no mercy, he was given what he wanted to be "hardened in unbelief."

 

[Dave G]

@Charlie24,

In verse 19, it seems you're making a connection to Jews, when I don't perceive Paul specifically speaking to them.
Rather, we're told in Romans 1 who he is addressing:
"to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: "

I take that to mean all of the believers who were there, both Jew and Gentile.
While I see Paul indeed anticipating the question and us ( all believers ) getting it into our heads, asking why God would find fault...given that no one can resist His will;
I also do not see how you're reaching the conclusion that we would act innocent and claim that we're not.

Verse 20: I cannot agree here, as I see the text telling me something a bit different, and I hope I was clear in my own commentary.

Verse 21:

Now Paul shows them that God as the Creator has the authority to do as He pleases.

On this we very much agree.
On the rest, I feel that in order for me even begin to agree with you, I'll have to see where in the Scriptures you get the idea that God made man a "free moral agent", and that mankind still has this capacity.
I see Romans 1, Romans 3 and many other Scriptures that tell me, in the details, quite the opposite.

At this point, all I can say is that I see nothing mentioned about man's will having any affect on God's will, anywhere in the entire passage.


Continued in my next post.

 

[Charlie24]

Let's take your first paragraph and focus on it first.

Moses was the "Man of God" his faith is evident in Scripture and cannot be denied.

When Paul gave the example of Moses' rebellion to go any further until God fulfilled his request, it was in contrast to the example of Pharaoh who rebelled against God.

Moses was a believer a "vessel of honor" and God granted his request based on his faith.

Pharaoh was a "vessel of dishonor" and was given no mercy, he was given what he wanted to be "hardened in unbelief."

I'm going no further until we address this!

 

[Dave G]

@Charlie24,
Continuing on with verse 22 and your understanding of the passage:

God having the right to show His wrath upon disobedient man is something to which we both agree;
But I see nowhere in the passage that He is doing this as a direct result of man's actions either way.
Rather, I see a clear-cut statement that it is the Lord's right to do with His creation as He sees fit... free of any outside influence or having considered what our desires may be.

Verse 23:

God chooses His elect through His foreknowledge, knowing beforehand they will believe. He predestined before the foundation of the world these "to be conformed into the image of Christ" through His plan of redemption.

Of course I do not agree with the above, as evidenced by my own commentary.

In addition, what I see you doing here is concluding that the Lord looked ahead and saw who would freely choose Him...
Perhaps not knowing or realizing the language of Romans 8:29-30:

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-20 )

Not only do I see Paul telling us here that whom God foreknew, He also did predestinate conformed to the image of His Son...
but that only those that were foreknown would be conformed to that image.
Only those who were predestinated were called, only those who were called were justified, and only those who were justified were glorified ( past tense ).
Therefore, no one who was not foreknown, would ever be part of this process.

Foreknown -----> Predestinated ---------> Called --------> Justified --------> Glorified.

That said, even if you are correct ( which I disagree with ), based on the language of Romans 8:29-30, salvation cannot be available to all men... as this passage rules out that idea...at least to me.

Do you see the problem?



Ongong?
Sure, let's proceed with your commentary on verses 24 to the end, and I'll give some more of my thoughts, if you're willing.

 

[Dave G]

Moses was a believer a "vessel of honor" and God granted his request based on his faith.

I disagree.

I see that Moses is a vessel of mercy because I see Romans 9 telling us why God made Him such...
Because of His desire to both show His mercy and compassion to some, and show His wrath to others.

Pharaoh was a "vessel of dishonor" and was given no mercy, he was given what he wanted to be "hardened in unbelief."

I partly agree, but see that God made him a vessel of wrath and allowed him to remain in his hardened state, in order to judge Pharoah for his sins and hardheartedness.

Charlie,
Knowing your views and following along in your commentary line by line, doesn't change how I'm reading the passage for myself;
But I do appreciate your willingness and honesty in going this far ( and showing me this much ).

 

[Charlie24]

I disagree.

I see that Moses is a vessel of mercy because I see Romans 9 telling us why God made Him such...
Because of His desire to both show His mercy and compassion to some, and show His wrath to others.

I partly agree, but see that God made him a vessel of wrath and allowed him to remain in his hardened state, in order to judge Pharoah for his sins and hardheartedness.

Charlie,
Knowing your views and following along in your commentary line by line, doesn't change how I'm reading the passage for myself;
But I do appreciate your willingness and honesty in going this far ( and showing me this much ).

You see my view and I see yours, and we totally disagree.

Nothing we can do, Dave G.