Rome teaches "Works Salvation"

[Yelsew]

So it comes down to what "believing" actually entails. Is it a one-time action? If so, how long does it take? A second? Less? More? Or, is it a way of life?

If it's a way of life, what does it mean to spend a life believing in Christ? Do we really believe in Christ if we don't do what He says we are to do? Do we believe in Him if we don't love Him? And can we love Him without doing what He tells us to do? Do we believe in Him if we don't do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:10)

There's a whole lot of theology wrapped up in "believeth"!

What I think (drumroll!) is that a lot of you folks refuse to acknowledge that there can be a faith that doesn't automatically and inevitably lead to good works. And yet James warns us against that very thing.

"Believeth" implies, "a starting point with a continuous sustained believing".

Believing is itself is not a life style, but the root of lifestyle maintenance. Lifestyle is dependent upon what one believes. And, one can change their beliefs in order to establish a specific lifestyle, Hence Hollywood! Hence Monastic life, Hence gay lifestyle, Hence...you name it!

I don't know how one cannot Love Jesus once they come to believe in Him and belief in him is based on knowledge of Him. Nor do I understand how one cannot do what He says to do. But alas, there is self will, and we do tend to do what we want in spite of our love for another. "Good works" is a relative term, even evil people do good works. Some of the best things for mankind were invented by evil people. I suppose that is why God is not impressed by the works we do, he even says they are as "filthy rags". I doubt that any works we do are of any value except as they cause other people to think of us, and perhaps develop a desire to know where we get those 'good works' and why we do them. That of course provides us with the opportunity to tell others of Jesus.

I think good works are the natural byproduct of Faith in God! Kind of like bees and honey. Yeah, faith without works is dead faith alright

 

[Ray Berrian]

Not only are Christians sealed to the day of redemption Paul drives the nail into the theological board again, where he says with the blessing of Almighty God, that we are to be ' . . . confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.' [Philippians 1:6] But, then Jesus words are not as valuable when you have the absolute truth coming from the minds of the aging prelates called the Magisterium.

Show me one verse in the N.T. where it says that the Holy Spirit can be grieved out of the soul of a genuine Christian, and I will fly to the Vatican and apologize to Pope John Paul.

The Bible says that He, the Holy Spirit, is a permanent Resident in the life of all who truely believe in Jesus. [John 14;16 & I John 3:9]

Either God has given to us eternal life or the Lord is found dishonest. I John 5:11-12 says, 'And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, {not temporary life} and this life is in His Son. He who hath the Son hath life; and he who hath not the Son of God hath not life.'

This never ending life is all contingent on believing truly in Jesus Christ. [John 3:16] 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everlasting life means a spiritual life that has no end; and it begins when the sinner believes in Christ. This is Biblical Christianity and not the quasi-spiritual religion of Catholicism.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Of course the teachers of Rome would say that the term "the law" in Romans is in reference to only the "ceremonial law",and that is because Rome teaches that one must observe the Ten Comandments in order to attain eternal life.

The teacher whose tapes I was listening to is a former anti-Catholic who used to believe just as you do -- i.e., "pagan religion", "all Catholics are going to hell", etc. He devoted a lot of time to saving people from being "papists". Sounds like he studied and found out that he was wrong.

But how can it be said that the following verse from Romans is not in regard to the Ten Commandments?:

As I said...I am not well versed in this particular part of the scriptures. I do not have an thorough answer at this time and will not until I do some studying. You, however, will not listen to anyone. You have been given answers and since they do not fit your preconcieved notions, you cannot process them in your mind.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

Salvation, i.e., initial justification by which we are made children of God, delivered from the bondage of sin, brought into the kingdom of God, and given an inheritance, indeed has nothing to do with any work of the law or anything on our part. The only thing we bring to God in the act of His saving us is our sin. It is THIS which St. Paul is talking about. Read the rest of the verses around Romans 3:20. St. Paul is discussing how we enter salvation. And we do that apart from any work of the law.

As I said before, the Jews trusted that by ceremonial rites they were automatically given a pass to Heaven. St. Paul states in Romans 2: 5 - 10 that there will be a Last Judgment in which ALL MEN will be judged.

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Judgment Day, Jerry. The day of "wrath and revelation" Can't avoid the obvious here

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Who will render to EVERY MAN. This is St. Paul's whole argument to the Jews. They do NOT git a free pass. Furthermore, look at the standard mentioned here. According to his DEEDS Oh oh!! That sounds like Jesus is going to look at my WORKS instead of my faith!!!

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

To them who patiently DO WELL (i.e. DO GOOD WORKS!!!) --- IMMORTALITY!! They get something from doing good works -- they git eternal life!!

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Do not obey the truth. Contentious. Obey unrighteousness. What do they git? HELL!!!

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile:

Again, St. Paul makes his case that this judgment includes the Jews. They do not git a pass!!

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And again he repeats himself. Seems that Paul was dealing with a people as stubborn and unlistening as you are and had to drill it home to them.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

OH MAN !!! The doers of the law shall be justified. Sounds like the Catholics got it right and scriptural and you are the one out in left field as far as Holy Writ goes!! Maybe you better back up and reconsider your opinions

Why should I listen to someone who says that "the law" in Romans is in reference to the "ceremonial law" when I have already proven that Paul is speaking about the "Ten Commandments".

Because A) He was an anti Catholic bigot just like you are B) you couldn't carry his notebooks theologically speaking and C) it would be a good lesson in humility for you to admit that you are not the smartest person in the universe. He has studied rings around you and his writings show it. You just have a bunch of opinions based on your prejudices.

I quoted the verses as they are written,and these verses are "unconditional" statements that say that as soon as one believes they are sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.It does not say that they are sealed unto the day of redemption if they do this or not do that.You are adding "conditions" that are not there.

Looks like we have another one who doesn't read what others write to him. I told you that "sealed" does not mean what you are defining it as. It means "marked". Nothing more.

The Holy Spirit Who seals is a deposit guaranteering that inheritance."...an earnest, i.e. money which in purchases is given as a pledge that the full amount will subsequently be paid"("Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon").

Wrong again. You forgot the New Covenant. The guarantee of receiving the full amount in the future is ONLY IF THE CONDITIONS ARE KEPT. That is how all covenants are made. Even in an inheritance, a familial structure of the covenant, the understanding is that the child CAN LOSE THE INHERITANCE. The "earnest" is the pledge of the one giving that he is faithful and means what he has promised. It is not a pledge that the one recieving is faithful to keep his end of the covenant.

It guarantees the believers inheritance of a new,immortal body.The Lord makes a "pledge" that He will deliver and the Holy Spirit is His "earnest" that He will fulfill His promise.You would have us believe that even though the Lord pledges to deliver what He promises that He might go back on His word.

I never said that. It is WE who go back on Him. He is faithful to deliver to us that which we have been promised if we peresevere to the end. The "earnest" is an encouragement to us to continue faithful, knowing that by God's pledge we will receive that which has been promised to us.

The Parable of the Prodigal shows this quite clearly. The Prodigal received his "earnest" and went out and wasted it all in the "far country" of sin and "riotous living". Now if he had died in that state, would he have received the rest (the full amount) which the father still had waiting for him at home? Nope. And neither do Christians who leave the covenant and the Father's house for lives of sin.

Some Covenants are conditional and others are not.

No, sir, you are DEAD WRONG on this, and any covenant theologian worth his salt will tell you the same. ALL covenants are conditional. All covenants are made with blood oaths. All covenants have terms which both parties swear to keep. You know about as much about covenants as I know about nuclear fission, which is NOTHING.

I suggest you go to the Protestant web site I.C.E. Freebooks and find Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER and read for free online. It is the best book out there on the foundations and make up of a covenant. Then read Scott Hahn's book A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISE to understand the familial workings of a covenant. Together they will give you a thorough picture and edjecate you out of yer ignerance.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

This verse is better rendered "we are partners with the Christ".This is in regard to "ruling" with the Lord as His companions when HE will rule on the earth.

You can't even read the Bible in its context!!!

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

The CONTEXT (remember CONTEXT, Jerry?) has to do with the obtaining of the rest of the Promised Land, which is a picture of our crossing over into Heaven. If anything, ya nut, it PROVES my contention that you must remain faithful to the end to inherit the promised eternal life. There is absolutely NOTHING in the context of those verses which refers to future ruling with Christ on earth (another heresy -- rapturism). You are reading into the text to defend your position. Now is that really honest? And I'm supposed to accept you as some sort of "doctor of the Church" at whose feet I am supposed to sit and listen in rapturous wonder?

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

No wonder you are so confused.

But this privledge to rule with Him is contingent on continuing fidelity--if we hold firmly to the end the confidence that we had at first.In this connection the following verse comes to mind:

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.And he shall rule them with a rod of iron"(Rev.2:26,27).

I have answered all of your points,now please address Romans 3:20 and 2Cor.3:7-13.

I do not understand what St. Paul is talking about in 2 Corinthians. At least I can admit that there are things I don't know. What a burden it must be to be the all wise Jerry and not be able to admit that you are wrong and don't know everything. Not to mention having us "papists" ignore your profound wisdom on Catholicism.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
The teacher whose tapes I was listening to is a former anti-Catholic who used to believe just as you do -- i.e., "pagan religion", "all Catholics are going to hell", etc.

Catholic Convert,

I have never said or believed that "all Catholics are going to hell".You put words in my mouth that I never said.When you cannot answer the verses I quoted you revert to the most outrageous behavior!

He was an anti Catholic bigot just like you are

At least you are consistent.You admit that you have no answers to the verses I quoted and since you have no answer you revert to name-calling.

As I said...I am not well versed in this particular part of the scriptures. I do not have an thorough answer at this time and will not until I do some studying.

NOw is the perfect time to study.But instead of studying you revert to making false charges against others and calling them names.

Salvation, i.e., initial justification by which we are made children of God, delivered from the bondage of sin, brought into the kingdom of God, and given an inheritance, indeed has nothing to do with any work of the law or anything on our part.

You only prove that you will believe anything just because Rome says that it is true.Here you say that "salvation...has nothing to do with any work of the law or anything on our part.

But Rome says that one must observe the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation.

St. Paul states in Romans 2: 5 - 10 that there will be a Last Judgment in which ALL MEN will be judged.

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Judgment Day, Jerry. The day of "wrath and revelation" Can't avoid the obvious here

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Who will render to EVERY MAN. This is St. Paul's whole argument to the Jews. They do NOT git a free pass. Furthermore, look at the standard mentioned here. According to his DEEDS Oh oh!! That sounds like Jesus is going to look at my WORKS instead of my faith!!!

Of couse you take these verses out of context.Paul is speaking about judgment according to "works".And by this way if one sins he is not saved:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"(Ro.2:12).

If you break one commandment you are guilty of breaking them all (Jms.2:10).That is why Paul calls those who are under the law "cursed" and why he says that the "Ten Commandments" are the "ministration of death".

That is why Paul says that by law "there is none righteous,no,not one"(Ro.3:11)..And he explains why none are saved by keeping the law:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"(Ro.3:23).

By the law none will be saved because all sin.

That is why Paul explains another "righteousness of God",a righteousness which is "apart from law":

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Ro.3:21,22).

The righteousness of God unto all and upon all who believe--all apart from the law.

Rome knows nothing about this way of salvation.

And now I am sure that you will say that you have not studied this.But if you admit that you are ignorant of this why do you come on this forum pretending to be an expert?

OH MAN !!! The doers of the law shall be justified. Sounds like the Catholics got it right and scriptural and you are the one out in left field as far as Holy Writ goes!!

Again you fail to consider what Paul says in the immediate context of these verses you are quoting:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"(Ro.2:12).

The wages of sin is death.You commit one sin and you are guilty of them all (Jms.2:10).

The Catholics got it right if you can live a sinless life.Otherwise,she is the one who is out in left field and she is ignorant of the words of Paul when he speaks of the "righteousness of God apart from the law" which comes upon all who believe.

it would be a good lesson in humility for you to admit that you are not the smartest person in the universe.

Again when you cannot answer in an intelligent manner you revert to "trash" talk.I never said that I am "the smartest person in the universe"!

Earlier I said that some Covenants are conditional and others are not.You replied:

No, sir, you are DEAD WRONG on this, and any covenant theologian worth his salt will tell you the same. ALL covenants are conditional. All covenants are made with blood oaths. All covenants have terms which both parties swear to keep. You know about as much about covenants as I know about nuclear fission, which is NOTHING.

It is you who doesn't know the meaning of a "covenant".Are we supposed to believe that the following "covenant" is "conditional"?:

"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you...And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth"(Gen.9:8,9,11).

Where are the "conditions" to this "covenant".I am sure that now you will say that you are not well versed on covenants,despite the fact that you feel like enough of an expert to say that I know nothing about "covenants".

WHAT ARE THE CONDTIONS IN THIS COVENANT?

In His grace,--Jerry

[ November 20, 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Jerry Shugart ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

Hey Hoss --

YOU have been in "attack mode" since you walked in the doors. Kinda hard to be irenic when one is having one's backside peppered with buckshot.

I have never said or believed that "all Catholics are going to hell".You put words in my mouth that I never said.When you cannot answer the verses I quoted you revert to the most outrageous behavior!

Well, then, you are epistomologically inconsistent. If what you say is indeed true, i.e. all Catholics are practicing a religion which is based on "works" as an attempt to "earn" Heaven, and all Catholics are practicing the "Babylonian Mystery Religion" then ipso facto, ALL CATHOLICS ARE DAMNED!!! At least try to be consistent and epistomologically correct with your arguments.

Now is the perfect time to study.But instead of studying you revert to making false charges against others and calling them names.

Yes, now would be a good time to study IF I were really interested in nuancing the Greek of these verses. Unfortunately, since I do not know Greek, I must rely upon others who have spent their time learning the language. I just don't have the time to do everything I would like to do.

You only prove that you will believe anything just because Rome says that it is true.Here you say that "salvation...has nothing to do with any work of the law or anything on our part.

But Rome says that one must observe the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation.

We are having a linguistic problem here, and unfortunately, the wording out of Rome is less than precise for dealing with Protestants. You see, "salvation" to you means a one time act in which you gits the whole enchillada -- justification, eternal life, everything, all rolled up neatly into one package.

Salvation in the Roman lexicon, correctly understood, is broken down into several parts. There is the initial salvation in which we are initially justified and made partakers of the divine nature and given the adoption of sonship. But there is the final salvation which takes place on Judgment Day and which is base upon how well we have kept the covenant of God.

So when we say that salvation is dependant upon keeping the Law of God, we do not mean getting into the kingdom of God, the first thing I mentioned. That is by grace alone and nothing else. There is nothing, no works, nothing I could have done at all to be "born again" of water and the Spirit into the Kingdom. THAT is all by grace.

Of couse you take these verses out of context. Paul is speaking about judgment according to "works". And by this way if one sins he is not saved:

AMAZING!!!

I posted all those verse so that you could both read them and see the commentary on them. Verses 7 and 8 are quite clear that this has to do with our final destination.

That is why Paul says that by law "there is none righteous,no,not one"(Ro.3:11)..And he explains why none are saved by keeping the law:

That is a quote from Psalms 14: 1-3. St. Paul is again showing the Jews that they too are sinners in need of a Savior. But the "none righteous" that he is talking about are the unrighteous of 14: 4. And further down, in 14:5, God talks about the "generation of the righteous". Therefore, the Protestant supposition, that there are "none righteous" is false.

That is why Paul explains another "righteousness of God",a righteousness which is "apart from law":

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Ro.3:21,22).

The righteousness of God unto all and upon all who believe--all apart from the law.

Rome knows nothing about this way of salvation.

Well, neither do we Greek Orthodox because it is heresy.

And now I am sure that you will say that you have not studied this. But if you admit that you are ignorant of this why do you come on this forum pretending to be an expert?[/quote}

I might ask you the same question, seeing as how you twist the Scriptures and distort their teaching to fit your soteriological paradigm.

Again you fail to consider what Paul says in the immediate context of these verses you are quoting:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"(Ro.2:12).

The wages of sin is death.You commit one sin and you are guilty of them all (Jms.2:10).

Again when you cannot answer in an intelligent manner you revert to "trash" talk.I never said that I am "the smartest person in the universe"!{/quote]

Yeah, but your tone and demeanor acts like it!!

It is you who doesn't know the meaning of a "covenant".Are we supposed to believe that the following "covenant" is "conditional"?:

"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you...And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth"(Gen.9:8,9,11).

You are mashing tomatos and potatos together and trying to make them one. There are TWO things happening there. First of all, God is establishing His eternal covenant with Noah and making him the new covenantal Adam of the human race. Secondly, and this has nothing to do with the eternal covenant, He is promising that he will not drown the world again. That is separate from establishing the covenant with Noah and has nothing to do with Noah. Neither does it make the covenant "unconditional".

Where are the "conditions" to this "covenant".I am sure that now you will say that you are not well versed on covenants,despite the fact that you feel like enough of an expert to say that I know nothing about "covenants".

No, hotshot, I will not say that. I know covenant. You don't. That much is clear.

Covenants are conditional. Period. You cannot "read into" the Scriptures and make them say what you think. You must take basic principles and when they are violated by your beliefs CHANGE YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM. You don't change a covenant to suit your tastes.

It's like the dopey Premillenialist position. Jesus clearly states that He will return before all who heard Him speak would die. (Mark 9:1). Now unless you can find me a 2000 year old Jew, then Jesus must have returned. Yet faced with the clarity of such a statement, people make the dumbest statements trying to keep the Premillenialist position alive.

WHAT ARE THE CONDTIONS IN THIS COVENANT?

Same as every covenant ever made: Obey and be blessed. Disobey and be cursed.

Real simple, actually.

Now go find Ray Sutton's book online like I told you to and do some reading. You need it.

Oh, and if you wish more irenic conversation, then perhaps you should approach us in the Faith with a tad more consideration yourself. I have felt attacked by you from the very first post I read, and the tone was strident, arrogant, and full of blather in my NTBHO.

 

[Yelsew]

CatholicConvert said,

It's like the dopey Premillenialist position. Jesus clearly states that He will return before all who heard Him speak would die. (Mark 9:1). Now unless you can find me a 2000 year old Jew, then Jesus must have returned. Yet faced with the clarity of such a statement, people make the dumbest statements trying to keep the Premillenialist position alive.

KJV[Mark 9:1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

NJB[Mark 9:1] And he said to them, `In truth I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.'</font>[/QUOTE]

NIV[Mark 9:1] And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

NAS [Mark 9:1] He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power."

NRSV-Catholic Version [Mark 9:1] And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

Quotes from just a few versions of the Holy Bible, and NOT ONE OF THEM says that JESUS will return before some of the listeners dies. HOWEVER, PENTACOST did come before any of them died, and Pentacost was the establishment of the KINGDOM OF GOD upon the earth through the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Get your facts straight CatholicConvert!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

CatholicConvert,

I asked you where the "conditions" are in the following "covenant" that the Lord made with mankind:

"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you...And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth"(Gen.9:8,9,11).

You said:

You are mashing tomatos and potatos together and trying to make them one. There are TWO things happening there. First of all, God is establishing His eternal covenant with Noah and making him the new covenantal Adam of the human race.

Of course you give no evidence to support what you say.In fact,the "covenant" is not a promise just to Adam,but instead to all his seed and with every living creature.

It is a promise in regard to "perpetual generations"(v.12) and that is why it is called "the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth"(Gen.9:16).

But since you cannot provide any "conditions" you just make up some outlandish idea that is not supported by Scripture.

Secondly, and this has nothing to do with the eternal covenant, He is promising that he will not drown the world again. That is separate from establishing the covenant with Noah and has nothing to do with Noah. Neither does it make the covenant "unconditional".

The "covenant" is in regard to the Lord's unconditional" promise that He will not drown the world again:

"And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth".

But since you cannot provide any "conditions" you deny that this is a "covenant" even though the word "covenant" is written in black and white in the verse itself.

No, hotshot, I will not say that. I know covenant. You don't. That much is clear.

Here is the "primary" meaning of the Greek word that is translated "covenant" in the New Testament:

"...a disposition,arrangement,of any sort,which one wishes to be valid"("Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon").

That is why the Greek word is translated as "testament" in the following verse:

"For where a testament is,there must also be also of necessity be the death of athe testator"(Heb.9:16).

The translators from the church at Rome also translates the word as "will",as in "last will and testimony".And a "will" can indeed be "unconditional".

And please,I do not need lectures on ethics from someone who is adept at name calling and who will not hesite to make false charges against others.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Yelsew]

Same as every covenant ever made: Obey and be blessed. Disobey and be cursed.

Real simple, actually.

That is the essence of the OLD TESTAMENT Covenant.

The essence of the NEW TESTAMENT COVENANT is BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved and thy house! Since all human behavior is controlled by belief, the true essence of the New Testament covenant is, "Believe and behave accordingly and thou shall be saved and thy house".

Belief first and behavior follows!

 

[CatholicConvert]

Yelsew --

Thank you for proving my point. Jesus said they would not "taste death" (die).

Pretty clear to me.

He also said He was coming back "soon", "quickly" and that His coming was "at hand".

NONE of those words means "2000+ years later"

Oh well....

 

[CatholicConvert]

CatholicConvert,

I asked you where the "conditions" are in the following "covenant" that the Lord made with mankind:

"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you...And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth"(Gen.9:8,9,11).

If I had a nickel for every error you are making I could retire tomorrow.

And it's STILL obvious you ain't got a clue about covenant.

Covenants are not made with the massa damnata. Covenants are made with covenantal heads i.e., one who represents many. That is why the whole human race fell when Adam fell. That is why when the pagan male coming into the Jewish kingdom was circumcised, it counted for all the females in his family. That is why those who stay in Jesus are safe....because the covenant is between He and God on behalf of all flesh.

Next error is your assumption that "the covenant" that God made with mankind is some kind of different covenant. It is not. It is an extension and continuation of the eternal covenant which Adam was created into and which continues to this day. There are not a whole bunch of multiple covenants. There is but one, eternal and never ending.

Of course you give no evidence to support what you say. In fact,the "covenant" is not a promise just to Adam, but instead to all his seed and with every living creature.

It is more than just a promise. A covenant is a relationship. It is two individuals becoming united. The clearest picture of this is marriage. That is why the Church is called the Bride of Christ.

It is a promise in regard to "perpetual generations"(v.12) and that is why it is called "the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth"(Gen.9:16).

It is the everlasting covenant because it existed between the members of the Blessed Trinity from before time began and will continue forever. It has changed in how it is administered among mankind, it has had multiple covenantal heads among mankind, among whom Jesus the Christ is the last covenantal head, but it is and remains one covenant, not many.

But since you cannot provide any "conditions" you just make up some outlandish idea that is not supported by Scripture.

No more outlandish than your claims against the Church, which cannot be substantiated from Scripture, but which probably come from all those little Chick pamphlets you read.

The "covenant" is in regard to the Lord's unconditional" promise that He will not drown the world again:

Nope. That is a promise within the context of the covenant. The terms have changed, but not the covenant itself. Just like the change from Old to New Covenant. Terms have changed (Jesus fulfills and fills the rites, making the ordinances into Sacraments) but the basic foundational covenant remains the same.

But since you cannot provide any "conditions" you deny that this is a "covenant" even though the word "covenant" is written in black and white in the verse itself.

I didn't deny that it is a covenant. I deny that this is somekind of new and different covenant from the one and only covenant of God with mankind. When God says that He establishes His covenant with Noah, He is transferring headship, just as He did when Jesus became the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45).

Here is the "primary" meaning of the Greek word that is translated "covenant" in the New Testament:

"...a disposition,arrangement,of any sort,which one wishes to be valid"("Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon").

Thayer was wrong. The Bible is correct. Here is the Biblical definiation of a covenant:

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

A covenant is UNION, not a legal contract as Thayer and all Protestants define it.

That is why the Greek word is translated as "testament" in the following verse:

"For where a testament is,there must also be also of necessity be the death of the testator"(Heb.9:16).

The translators from the church at Rome also translates the word as "will",as in "last will and testimony".And a "will" can indeed be "unconditional".

Yes, it could, but not in the Biblical sense. Scripture does not allow for it because St. Paul warns us against falling away. Therefore, we know that there are conditions that go deeper than the presentation of a legal contract (the Presbyterian view). Covenant -- BIBLICAL Covenant that is -- is UNION. Git that striaght and you will stop being confused. Read Ezekial 16, the whole chapter. It is about UNION described as marriage. And a union, a relationship CAN change. A piece of legal paper may be written in such language as to make it unbreakable, but a RELATIONSHIP is more than paper and laws. It has to do with love and union and becoming "one flesh" with the other. And if you walk away from the union, you have broken relationship and broken the covenant bond. Works with man...works with God.

And please,I do not need lectures on ethics from someone who is adept at name calling and who will not hesite to make false charges against others.

Awwwwwwwwwww......don't cry.

Hey, if you are going to come in our play pen and start tossin sand around, expect some of it to come back yer way. Some of us toss back.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Yelsew --

Thank you for proving my point. Jesus said they would not "taste death" (die).

Pretty clear to me.

He also said He was coming back "soon", "quickly" and that His coming was "at hand".

NONE of those words means "2000+ years later"

Oh well....

What I posted does not support you, it refutes you! You claim that Jesus has returned, and you used Mark 9:1 as your proof text. That scripture does not support your declaration. Why is it you cannot see that?

Furthermore, what is 2000 years to God? scriptures tell us "a thousand years is but a day to God". What is "soon" to God? 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 year? Soon is whatever God determines it to be, and not what we mere mortals determine it to be. Eternal God has all of eternity to work with and is not constrained by the events of man.

My point to you is that Jesus did not promise that he would return before those listening died. He promised that the Kingdom of God would return to the earth before they died. That took place at Pentacost with the arrival of the Holy Spirit in Power.

While Jesus was present among men, the Kingdom of God was at hand. When Jesus departed this earth, the Kingdom went with him, but with the return of the Holy Spirit to the earth, the Kingdom of God returned to the earth. Thus, the Kingdom of God is at hand now, today among man.

Even so, Jesus will return this earth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[Rev 20:1] Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key of the Abyss in his hand and an enormous chain.
[Rev 20:2] He overpowered the dragon, that primeval serpent which is the devil and Satan, and chained him up for a thousand years.
[Rev 20:3] He hurled him into the Abyss and shut the entrance and sealed it over him, to make sure he would not lead the nations astray again until the thousand years had passed. At the end of that time he must be released, but only for a short while.
[Rev 20:4] Then I saw thrones, where they took their seats, and on them was conferred the power to give judgment. I saw the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus and for having preached God's word, and those who refused to worship the beast or his statue and would not accept the brand-mark on their foreheads or hands; they came to life, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[Rev 20:5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over; this is the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:6] Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection; the second death has no power over them but they will be priests of God and of Christ and reign with him for a thousand years.
[Rev 20:7] When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
[Rev 20:8] and will come out to lead astray all the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, and mobilize them for war, his armies being as many as the sands of the sea.
[Rev 20:9] They came swarming over the entire country and besieged the camp of the saints, which is the beloved City. But fire rained down on them from heaven and consumed them.
[Rev 20:10] Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever.

</font>[/QUOTE]The end of evil is emminent! But only those who had Faith in God when they met the first death will live in an evil-free eternity!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
And it's STILL obvious you ain't got a clue about covenant.

Covenants are not made with the massa damnata. Covenants are made with covenantal heads i.e., one who represents many.

CatholicConvert,

You never have provided even one Scriptual verse to prove anything you have said in regard to the Covenant that the Lord made at Genesis 9.
You ignore the plain words where the Lord says that the "covenant" is between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth:

"And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh"(Gen.9:15).

Here we see that the covenant is between the Lord and Noah and ecery living creature of all flesh.

But you cannot believe what is written in the Scriptures.You say that Covenants are not made with the massa damnata!

And the following verse says the same thing:

"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations"(Gen.9:12).

But you say that Covenants are not made with the massa damnata!

Just ignore what is so plain in Scripture,and say over and over-- Covenants are not made with the massa damnata!

In that way you can come to believe the Roman way of interpreting Scriptures.

Here is another verse that says the same thing that you continue to ignore:

"And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth"(Gen.9:17).

And now close your eyes and repeat your mantra-- Covenants are not made with the massa damnata!

You have got the Catholic method down pat!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Justified Saint]

Jerry, Rome teaches that living the holy life is what we are called to do and this is how we "perserve to the end".

Matthew 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy;without holiness no one will see the Lord.

One must embrace the gift of grace and live the holy life.

Grace has nothing to do with man-made works, nothing can force God to pay his end of the deal as the OT law was perceived to be. That is why Paul says:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it's not from works, so no one may boast.

God has set aside his own works for his children, ones that son and daughter do by the grace of God and out of love for their Father.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is how we live the holy life, doing the works God has prepared for us. As scripture says, without the holy life we will never see the Lord.

 

[Briguy]

Hebrews 12:
[9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
[10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
[11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
[12] Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
[13] And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
[14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
[15] Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

12:14 does not say we have to have Holy living to get into to heaven. It says we have to be in holiness. To be Holy is not to perfectly live out the Christian life. Being Holy is being washed by the blood of the lamb and "set apart" as clean to the eyes of the Lord. We can't achieve holiness in this flesh, but can mature in our quest to lve at peace with all men. The context here is of discipline and chastisement. This section of scripture is not meant to show that our lives save us but is meant to show that God is watching us and loves us enough to re-direct us, but NOT disown us if we belong to him. One scripture quotes are many many times out of context here on the BB and we should all be careful of trying to grab a verse just to prove a point (I do it sometimes as well).

More later,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Hi Ed, sorry to hear your wife is not well. I will pray for her and you as well

you wrote:
""And that is consistent with covenantalism also. Brian, salvation is a covenant. All the non-Catholics here seem to wish to ignore that reality. Jesus said it: "This is the New Covenant in my Blood..." Therefore, any ideas regarding salvation have to fall within covenantal paradigms or they are simply false, no matter how appealing they are (such as "once saved -- always saved")""

Ed, I do not claim to undestand the covenant idea as a whole. I have seen you debate whether the the NC is with the church or with Isreal. There are great arguments on both sides of that debate. If the NC is with Isreal I can still recieve all the benefits. The fact is the NC is an individual covenant of sorts. The union as I see it is not with only a group but reaches us as individuals, that is why it is new and better, as scripture says. With Jesus we have the opportunity to be dwelt by the Holy Spirit, the OC folks did not. They met God in the through sacrifice and obedience to the Law, and only priests really were in His presense in the Holy of Hollies. Now God himself indwells us personally and that whole other system is done away with. The old covenant type is gone. It is new and better now because it is personal.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[CatholicConvert]

Jerry, I gave you examples from scripture. You choose to ignore them so you can hone in on your pet theory. Well, so be it.

This is not a Catholic idea. I gave you a web site to go to -- a Protestant web site in which the author defends the same position on covenant that I do. Obviously it is clear to others outside the Catholic Faith how a covenant works and how it is made up.

The covenant made with mankind is made through covenantal heads. Noah was the covenantal head over mankind after the flood waters subsided. It is made with all mankind....just like the New Covenant is for all mankind....but it is through Jesus alone. There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Brian --

Since you admit that the covenant is sort of a mystery to you, why not go over to the web site I.C.E. Books{/b] and read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant -- THAT YOU MAY PROSPER - Dominion by Covenant.

It is a good foundational book and a good starting point. Scott Hahn told me that Sutton's work continues to help people into the Catholic Faith. That's a good enough recommendation for me.

Brother Ed

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

CatholicConvert,

I know that that is your mantra.But this is what the Scriptures say,and it is obvious by these Scriptures say that the Lord does in fact make direct covenants with the entire mass of people:

"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations"(Gen.9:12).

Here the Lord speaks of a covenant between Him and Noah AND every living creature.But since that does not fit your idea,close your eyes and play like this verse does not even exist,and say your mantra over and over:

There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

Now here is another verse that says that the Lord does make covenants with the entire mass of people:

""And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh"(Gen.9:15).

Here we an see that the Lord speaks of a covenant that is between Him and Noah and every living creature of all flesh.

But since that does not fit your ideas,just close your eyes and pretend that that verse does not even exist.Then repeat over and over your mantra:

There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

There is no such thing as a direct covenant made with the entire mass of people.

As I said before,you have the Roman method of interpreting Scripture down pat!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Justified Saint]

Thank you for the reminder Brian, however when looking at the context I am unable to reach your conclusion.

Hebrews 12: 1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

These words echo Paul's in second Timothy

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Those who long for his appearing shall be saved.

Hebrews 12:2-3
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Why must a saved Christian be warned against losing heart if it is impossible to lose heart in the one that saves?

Hebrews 12:7
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

Since we are sons and daughters in Christ, we must be disciplined like children. But, to what purpose?

Hebrews 12:8
If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

Without the father's discipline we can never be considered true sons and daughters. It is such a course that makes us holy and steers us down the race of perservance and righteousness.

Hebrews 12:10
Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness .

We further see how discipline then gives us holiness. This explains...

Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord .

We must respond to God's calling of the holy life and embrace his discipline in pursuit of peace and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord?
Your sequence of logic doesn't follow here since it supposes that up to this point the author is making a clear correlation between running the race, discipline, holy life etc. and then briefly interjects to say something different about holiness which more or less implies how to be justified and become Christian through faith alone(or so you would say) even though the author is apparently addressing justified(or in the process of justification) individuals.

Hebrews 14:16-17
See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

This "godless Esau" was the oldest son who lost his inheritance. So too can the Christian son squander his inheritance when he loses sight of it and indulges in sin.