Ross vs. Hovind Debate

[quantumfaith]

You said Hovind objects to theory being taught as fact, which I agree with. I'm simply pointing out that "science" has changed the definition so that "theory" actually fits into the category of "fact" now, whereas 160 years ago, a "theory" was an unproven postulation that required observation, research, and duplication of results by recreating a controlled environment similar to the one in which the original experiment succeeded, in order to be deemed "proven," and therefore no longer a "theory."

In other words, they have gone to great lengths to extend the life of their religion as "science." The original definition should never have been changed. It was accurate.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm

 

[Havensdad]

Thanks for your input. I know "you know" I come down differently than you on all this "science v faith" stuff.

You do know that Dr. Hovind is now serving a prison term.....some kind of IRS or tax issues I think, though not certain on that.

Hovind is in jail for sticking by his principles. He was given an opportunity to get out of the sentence. He turned them down.

 

[Havensdad]

Now this I completely disagree with. He is "charismatic" with and toward his crowd, but I think your analysis of ripping his opponents to shreds is not accurate.

While I disagree with much of Hovind's science (Ken Ham points out some of the errors), I certainly agree with his premise, and he does make his opponents look silly.

I agree from a debating point of view, Hovind does indeed shred his opponents.

 

[percho]

Especially when the process of naming day and night exactly matches the modern 24 hour period that Joe Avg. has seen his whole life. Light is day, dark is night, together they make up one day...too familiar.

And we need to be turned from one to the other.

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, from Acts 26:18

Which appear to be twelve hours each.

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. John 11:9.10

 

[quantumfaith]

While I disagree with much of Hovind's science (Ken Ham points out some of the errors), I certainly agree with his premise, and he does make his opponents look silly.

I agree from a debating point of view, Hovind does indeed shred his opponents.

Well I disagree, particularly in this adventure with Ross. I think Ross scored highest hands down. I don't know what you mean about "sticking to his principles". Do you mean he was offered some sort of "plea deal" and he refused such?

 

[Havensdad]

Well I disagree, particularly in this adventure with Ross. I think Ross scored highest hands down. I don't know what you mean about "sticking to his principles". Do you mean he was offered some sort of "plea deal" and he refused such?

Hovinds ministry was a 508 tax exempt ministry. Hovind challenged some people in authority (including a zoning board), and they brought charges down against him.

He was prosecuted under drug laws. As a 508 charity, he was not required to withhold taxes from his employees earnings. His employees, many of whom volunteered most of their time, were payed in cash, which is actually not illegal. However, because the amounts were just below the required reporting amounts, the IRS charged him with violating secrecy laws (again, that were designed to prosecute drug criminals who were trying to hide their money).

When Hovind announced what they were doing to him and the ministry on his radio program, and asked listeners to "pray for his accusers", he was charged with "Threatening and impeding the investigation of a government agency."

The fines and back taxes were such that in order to pay them, he would have had to sell off the ministry, and put people out on the streets. Rather than do that, he fought it, and ended up going to prison.

As for the debate, I am sorry, man, but when I first watched that, I actually agreed with Ross...and I STILL thought Hovind thrashed him. Ross is not a debater.

 

[Winman]

Hovinds ministry was a 508 tax exempt ministry. Hovind challenged some people in authority (including a zoning board), and they brought charges down against him.

He was prosecuted under drug laws. As a 508 charity, he was not required to withhold taxes from his employees earnings. His employees, many of whom volunteered most of their time, were payed in cash, which is actually not illegal. However, because the amounts were just below the required reporting amounts, the IRS charged him with violating secrecy laws (again, that were designed to prosecute drug criminals who were trying to hide their money).

When Hovind announced what they were doing to him and the ministry on his radio program, and asked listeners to "pray for his accusers", he was charged with "Threatening and impeding the investigation of a government agency."

The fines and back taxes were such that in order to pay them, he would have had to sell off the ministry, and put people out on the streets. Rather than do that, he fought it, and ended up going to prison.

As for the debate, I am sorry, man, but when I first watched that, I actually agreed with Ross...and I STILL thought Hovind thrashed him. Ross is not a debater.

Hovind was railroaded. He went to numerous universities and debated evolution, and he usually won hands down. He made a lot of enemies in high places. They were out to get him, and they did get him.

He is not in jail for tax evasion, but how he structured his taxes as this article shows.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2013/09/28/has-kent-hovind-given-up-fight-against-irs/

You can't keep a good man down, he will get out in a few years and will probably preach and lecture again.

 

[Havensdad]

Hovind was railroaded. He went to numerous universities and debated evolution, and he usually won hands down. He made a lot of enemies in high places. They were out to get him, and they did get him.

He is not in jail for tax evasion, but how he structured his taxes as this article shows.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2013/09/28/has-kent-hovind-given-up-fight-against-irs/

You can't keep a good man down, he will get out in a few years and will probably preach and lecture again.

Agreed. I got to meet him once...really nice guy. Made my kid laugh. I wish him all the best.

 

[Sapper Woody]

His defense of creationism is based on shoddy, half-cocked research and pseudo-facts.

If this is true, then how did he constantly beat his debate opponents? Wouldn't they have been able to "eat him alive"? As seen, he even had teachers admitting that he had them stumped.

 

[SolaSaint]

I watched the video and I cannot come away with what the website said in that Hovind got spanked? I did not see that. I thought Ross and Ankerberg ganged up on Hovind Although I truly don't like the methods Hovind uses in his teaching videos (have seen many), I do agree with the substance of what he teaches. Ross' views create too many theological problems concerning God's word.. I'll side with Hovind, hope he gets released from prison soon.

 

[Yeshua1]

Creationism is theory, because there was no one present to observe it. Science is something you can observe, something you can measure. Neither evolution nor creation can be observed, so both should remain theory.

Believe me, I am a Young Earth Creationist all the way, but that does not change the fact that Creationism is a theory.

But when textbooks say things like "Dinosaurs roamed the earth 70 million years ago", that is nothing but theory. They do not have one bit of proof for that.

That said, if the speed of light is not a constant and light was much faster in the recent past, radiometric forms of dating can give very old ages for objects that are not many "solar years" old.

God created all things, Jesus did, that is in the Bible, is truth, not theory!

And God created in 6 Days, not ages, and Man was divine creation, not from evolutionary process!

 

[Yeshua1]

I watched the video and I cannot come away with what the website said in that Hovind got spanked? I did not see that. I thought Ross and Ankerberg ganged up on Hovind Although I truly don't like the methods Hovind uses in his teaching videos (have seen many), I do agree with the substance of what he teaches. Ross' views create too many theological problems concerning God's word.. I'll side with Hovind, hope he gets released from prison soon.

Dr ross assumes that science is right on the dating and ages, and that right there conflicts with what he claims is a literaral reading of the genesis account!

 

[Winman]

God created all things, Jesus did, that is in the Bible, is truth, not theory!

And God created in 6 Days, not ages, and Man was divine creation, not from evolutionary process!

In science, Creation is considered a theory, because there was no person present to observe it.

And why do you imply that I believe in an old age for the earth and evolution?

Do you still play with tarot cards and drink blood?

 

[Yeshua1]

In science, Creation is considered a theory, because there was no person present to observe it.

And why do you imply that I believe in an old age for the earth and evolution?

Do you still play with tarot cards and drink blood?

Jesus was there , as He made all things, so that would make creationism a FACT!

 

[Winman]

Jesus was there , as He made all things, so that would make creationism a FACT!

One of Calvinism's finest minds.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Jesus was there , as He made all things, so that would make creationism a FACT!

Yeah, that'll stand up to scrutiny by a scientist.

 

[prophet]

While I disagree with much of Hovind's science (Ken Ham points out some of the errors), I certainly agree with his premise, and he does make his opponents look silly.

I agree from a debating point of view, Hovind does indeed shred his opponents.

Hamm, of Creation Museum fame, is very liberal in his creation theology.
I have yet to find a point that he has made, that I would side with him against Hovind.
I was raised by a Microbiologist, with an earned doctorate from the U.I.C., and have been instructed thoroughly in the 6 steps in making scientific law.
Hypothesis cannot become theory until it can be proven to show the exact same results in the exact same set of circumstances, 100% of the time. If there is any variation, in testing, the hypothesis must be restated and tested again.
Much of scientific' theory' is actually hypothetical, and predicated on the 'overwhelming evidence' that 'everyone' is repeating it, and not that it has been tested properly.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Hypothesis cannot become theory until it can be proven to show the exact same results in the exact same set of circumstances, 100% of the time. If there is any variation, in testing, the hypothesis must be restated and tested again.

Exactly. I said something similar to this earlier in the thread and the "old Earthers" simply chose to ignore it rather than respond to it. Hope you have better luck.

 

[quantumfaith]

Hamm, of Creation Museum fame, is very liberal in his creation theology.
I have yet to find a point that he has made, that I would side with him against Hovind.
I was raised by a Microbiologist, with an earned doctorate from the U.I.C., and have been instructed thoroughly in the 6 steps in making scientific law.
Hypothesis cannot become theory until it can be proven to show the exact same results in the exact same set of circumstances, 100% of the time. If there is any variation, in testing, the hypothesis must be restated and tested again.
Much of scientific' theory' is actually hypothetical, and predicated on the 'overwhelming evidence' that 'everyone' is repeating it, and not that it has been tested properly.

I am not precisely sure, but I think you may be confusing hypothesis,theory and law.

"Things" do not become Scientific LAW until it as you have stated. Theory does not hold such a "high bar". Furthermore, "theory" as used by the scientist is considerably different then the vernacular use of that word, in particular here.

 

[quantumfaith]

Jesus was there , as He made all things, so that would make creationism a FACT!

And you understand that any ardent naturalist could make the same claim against you....."How do you know....were you there?