RULE#1 For anything to be Officially Christian it must be found in the scriptures.

[MarysSon]

Read the letters to the Churches in Revelation. Read Jesus warnings about wolves. Read Paul and Peter's warnings about false teachers and false prophets. They all are pointing at Rome as a false teaching whore of a church.

The church at Rome oozes with traditions that have nothing to do with scripture. Exhibit one: indulgences.

The letters to the 7 Churches in Revelation were about the PEOPLE in those locations.
It was ALL the same Church - just in 7 different locales.

There is only ONE Church (Matt. 16:28, Eph. 4:5-6, 1 cor. 12). and that ONE Church has Christ's personal guarantee that it will NOT succumb to the gates of Hell (Matt. 16:18). There will ALWAYS be tares among the wheat, weeds among the crops. they've been there from the very BEGINNING, starting with Judas. This doesn't nullify the entire Church - ANYMORE than YOUR sin will condemn me.

As to indulgences - Col. 1:24 is a perfect verse to illustrate this Biblical principle:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

 

[Alofa Atu]

It was ALL the same Church - just in 7 different locales.

You do realize, that there are Catholic scholars that openly acknowledge that the 7 churches are also 7 'periods' of the whole Church from the time of Christ's first Advent unto the Second Advent?

 

[MarysSon]

Colossians 2, you wrongly use, see this thread:

Colossians 2, a study

As for Rome's own position at the highest levels (rather than your level, and make no mistake, there are 'levels' as per Ignatius):

"Now in the matter of Sabbath observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sunday for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Saturday should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an important matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Commandments of God. There is no authority in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week. For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. "All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you," said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. "He that heareth you heareth Me." We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God." - Source: The Catholic Record, London, Ontario Canada, September 1, 1923.- see source from Liberty Magazine Volumes 16-20, all this, the Roman and Seventh Day Adventist, in a response to speech given by Baptist minister [Emmanuel Baptist Church, Toronto Canada] Rev. J. Marion Smith on the Sabbath/Sunday question [google books pagination 14-15] - Liberty

“...Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify. ...” [The Faith Of Our Fathers “Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the Church Founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ” By James Cardinal Gibbons; Archbishop of Baltimore, Ninety-third Carefully Revised and Enlarged Edition; John Murphy Company; Publishers; Baltimore, MD. New York; R. & T. Washbourne, Ltd.; 10 Paternoster Row, London, and at Manchester.; Birmingham and Glascow; 1917; Chapter VIII [8]. The Church And The Bible; Online Pg 97, also side notation pagination as [089]] - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf

Additional statements from Cardinal Gibbons in further material, such as found in "Faith of our Fathers" google books pagination 108, "The Church and the Bible"; "...is not every Christian obliged to to sanctify Sunday, and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." - Faith of Our Fathers 1877 and as such at the beginning in the Introduction it is clearly said, "...in which the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are expounded by one of her own sons."

First of all - these are OPINIONS - not infallible teachings.

Secondly - they simply speak to the fact that there is no Scriptural EDICT for mandating Sunday worship. For that matter - there is NO official Scriptural edict mandating a Canon of Scripture. This was declared by the Catholic Church in 382 AD at the Council of Rome. Soooo, why do YOU adhere to it??

If this were a legal case - YOUR argument would be thrown out of court.

 

[Alofa Atu]

First of all - these are OPINIONS - not infallible teachings.

The Council of Trent (which I may cite upon request) is an "OPINION"?

 

[MarysSon]

You do realize, that there are Catholic scholars that openly acknowledge that the 7 churches are also 7 'periods' of the whole Church from the time of Christ's first Advent unto the Second Advent?

I realize that Catholic scholars are free to have their opinions.
I also realize that they are NOT teaching infallibly when they HAVE those opinions.

I know a few Catholic scholars who lost a Superbowl bet to me.
Does that mean their teachings are wrong, too??

 

[MarysSon]

The Council of Trent (which I may cite upon request) is an "OPINION"?

You can cite ANY Council you want - but it's not going to say what you WANT it to say.

I've read just about EVERY document regarding Sunday worship - and virtually EVERY opinion YOU are trying to twist says the SAME thing:
There is no Scriptural EDICT for mandating Sunday worship. That is ALL those quotes will tell you,
NONE of them will argue your point that the Church pulled this practice out of thin air. they ALL incorporate the Scriptural evidence for it - when you read them in context instead of cherry-picking them as YOU have.

YOUR problem is dishonesty - not lack of evidence . . .

 

[Salty]

SIX HOUR WARNING
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[Particular]

Jesus Christ is the source of all grace. Your objections (what in theology we call "positive unbelief") are because you cannot bring yourself to accept that God can be present with His people in the Eucharist and that God's kingdom includes children and does not have an age limit.

Jesus Christ the source of all grace ---> John 1:17
Jesus Christ is present amongst His people in the Eucharist ---> 1 Cor 10:16
The Kingdom of God includes children ---> Matthew 19:14, Acts 2:38-39

Jesus is gracious to sinners. Your church, however, is as legalistic as the Pharisees. Salvation by works.
Jesus is ever present with his children. You don't have to have communion for Jesus to be with you.

 

[Particular]

The letters to the 7 Churches in Revelation were about the PEOPLE in those locations.
It was ALL the same Church - just in 7 different locales.

There is only ONE Church (Matt. 16:28, Eph. 4:5-6, 1 cor. 12). and that ONE Church has Christ's personal guarantee that it will NOT succumb to the gates of Hell (Matt. 16:18). There will ALWAYS be tares among the wheat, weeds among the crops. they've been there from the very BEGINNING, starting with Judas. This doesn't nullify the entire Church - ANYMORE than YOUR sin will condemn me.

As to indulgences - Col. 1:24 is a perfect verse to illustrate this Biblical principle:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

Wow, the horrible use of scripture out of context is impressive.
Christ is the head of the church and we, his children make up the body. Therefore, the places of worship can change and when leaders of a local church fail to teach truth, God will no longer be in that place. So, when you go to the Vatican, you can be assured that God has abandoned the premises.

As to Colossians 1:24... your interpretation made me laugh out loud to see you imagine that Paul was promoting indulgences. Honestly, is THAT the verse your church uses as its prooftext for indulgences?
Why do you try to prop up such a dead church?

 

[Walpole]

Jesus is gracious to sinners. Your church, however, is as legalistic as the Pharisees. Salvation by works.
Jesus is ever present with his children. You don't have to have communion for Jesus to be with you.

Straw man alert ---> Salvation by works is condemned by the Catholic Church ---> “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session 6; Canon 1)

The Eucharist is the normative means by which man has communion with God...

1 Cor 10:16 ---> "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

1 Cor 10:16 ---> Communion - κοινωνία (koinōnia) means: fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy

(Source)

Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is the height of idolatry because it is a false representation of who God is. It says God is but a symbol. It says it is not His body and blood. It says God is not present amongst His people. It says "He is not here". It says God is not Immanuel. It says God is Hester Panim.

 

[MarysSon]

Wow, the horrible use of scripture out of context is impressive.
Christ is the head of the church and we, his children make up the body. Therefore, the places of worship can change and when leaders of a local church fail to teach truth, God will no longer be in that place. So, when you go to the Vatican, you can be assured that God has abandoned the premises.

As to Colossians 1:24... your interpretation made me laugh out loud to see you imagine that Paul was promoting indulgences. Honestly, is THAT the verse your church uses as its prooftext for indulgences?
Why do you try to prop up such a dead church?

Ummmm, first of all - the Church isn't a "place". It's the Body of Christ - and He only established ONE (Matt. 18:18).

He didn't establish tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit to this massive confusion. That mess was started by MEN iun the 16th century.

The Church doesn't magically "change" into another Church when some of its people behave badly. Christ guaranteed that His Church would NOT succumb to the gates of Hell (Matt. 16:18). Christ's Church endures DESPITE some of its less-than stellar examples of faith. The have been in the Church since Judas.

YOUR lack of faith iin the promises of Christ is astounding . . .

 

[Alofa Atu]

I realize that Catholic scholars are free to have their opinions.
I also realize that they are NOT teaching infallibly when they HAVE those opinions. ...

Are you saying those Catholic scholars are in error when they make such judgments? If so, by what standard did you judge, please provide the authoritative (with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat of Superior) material, and I will use that source instead in future. Otherwise, your opinion is less than their actual printed material, since theirs is in print, and in circulation in Catholic eschelons, while yours (non-authoritative, unless you are able to provide credentials otherwise) is on an internet Baptist (so called) subforum.

 

[Alofa Atu]

I've read just about EVERY document regarding Sunday worship - and virtually EVERY opinion YOU are trying to twist says the SAME thing:
There is no Scriptural EDICT for mandating Sunday worship. That is ALL those quotes will tell you,

Thank you for validating my point (again).

 

[Alofa Atu]

I realize that Catholic scholars are free to have their opinions.
I also realize that they are NOT teaching infallibly when they HAVE those opinions.

Are all statements, as such, then merely "OPINIONS" until such time that they are made "Infallible"?

 

[Alofa Atu]

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Do you make distinction between proselytizing and evangelizing?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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