Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
I thought we were talking about the Iraq war.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Rumsfeld - This is really disgusting!
- Thread starter LadyEagle
- Start date
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
That would be great. Unfortunately, we decided to go to war against Iraq, instead.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
I have never heard of the SecDef *ever* personally signing letters of condolence in the past...
As far as I knew the 'Leader' closest to the Service Member would actually write the letter and sign it...
In fact from my days in the Navy it was considered bad form if anyone above Squadron Commander was forced to write the letter because the letter was supposed to be by someone who acyaully knew and worked with the Service Member...
Often additional letters might be included from fellow peers...
Yes, a hug from the president is nice. A letter from the SecDef is a nice gesture...
But, these people didn't know the Service Member and really can't relate to just how important and special they were...
All are special... But, there is a special bond between a squad, platoon, or squadron that a higher level leader just can't know...
They know about it... They remember it from their past... But, it simply isn't a current knowledge...
As far as I knew the 'Leader' closest to the Service Member would actually write the letter and sign it...
In fact from my days in the Navy it was considered bad form if anyone above Squadron Commander was forced to write the letter because the letter was supposed to be by someone who acyaully knew and worked with the Service Member...
Often additional letters might be included from fellow peers...
Yes, a hug from the president is nice. A letter from the SecDef is a nice gesture...
But, these people didn't know the Service Member and really can't relate to just how important and special they were...
All are special... But, there is a special bond between a squad, platoon, or squadron that a higher level leader just can't know...
They know about it... They remember it from their past... But, it simply isn't a current knowledge...
"Friends, Romans, Countrymen..."
The blame lies with the Democrats because Thomas Jefferson invented the signature machine (I heard) so that he could get more work done. This is a non-issue unless you agree with the liberals who say that Rummy is "insensitive." (Caution, we may all have to attend internet sensitivity training by order of the cyberspace authorities....)
typewrittenly yours,
cmg
Merry Christmas to all!
The blame lies with the Democrats because Thomas Jefferson invented the signature machine (I heard) so that he could get more work done. This is a non-issue unless you agree with the liberals who say that Rummy is "insensitive." (Caution, we may all have to attend internet sensitivity training by order of the cyberspace authorities....)
typewrittenly yours,
cmg
Merry Christmas to all!
Does anyone here find it strange that peopel expect a man with the magnitude of the SecDef's job to be signing condolence letters? With no disrespect to the dead, surely Rumsfeld has more pressing things to do, like manage the defense of this country and her troops. Signing letters is micromanagement. He should not be doing that.
poncho
Well-Known Member
Well Ron,
It would seem that the many who seek to place the blame on one side or the other in this present (right vs left) worldly system in which we live find the idea of right vs wrong a strange concept to comprehend.
Strange as it may sound to some here and most certainly CMG as I agree with him and SpiritualMadMan on this one. I do however find it strange that this is happening to Rumsfled all of a sudden. All of this could have been easily kept out of the public forum as we have a media that is more than willing to only print what the "officials" give to them as knowledge with no questions.
Rumsfeld is being scapegoated for a reason, what I don't know. Maybe to cover for someone else? He (Rumsfeld) is quite a big fish to fry but he is being grilled for something we don't see yet.
These wars were planned well in advance of 9/11 there is no lack of evidence, they fairly well brag about it in their writtings and books that's no secret or theory it's all there for the reading. So the let's get behind the president and fight Al Qaeda doesn't ring true for me and many others.
Whoever wants to go that route can but I'm not going with you. This country is being dismantled while we're all watching what's happening "over there" and being "patriotic" following these "leaders". We are not being told the truth and haven't been from the get go. Evil in high places, corporate corruption, and global criminal activity is rampant and I refuse to buy into all the smokescreens. I am a Christian first and foremost, I am a patriot that loves my country and have nothing but the highest respect for our fighting men and women that are being used so badly in these wars. It isn't about winning or losing it's about destroying this military, bringing America down from the inside and setting up the United Nations to take control of the countries we "liberate" it's a global "good cop/bad cop" scam with a hundred smokescreens thrown in for good measure.
You that wish to can follow whatever line of reasoning these "leaders" offer by all means feel free while you still can. Just don't expect me to go along while my countrymen and my country is used up for evil globalist desires. I find absolutly nothing "patriotic" or heroic about the way these people are operating.
Merry Christmas to all.
It would seem that the many who seek to place the blame on one side or the other in this present (right vs left) worldly system in which we live find the idea of right vs wrong a strange concept to comprehend.
Strange as it may sound to some here and most certainly CMG as I agree with him and SpiritualMadMan on this one. I do however find it strange that this is happening to Rumsfled all of a sudden. All of this could have been easily kept out of the public forum as we have a media that is more than willing to only print what the "officials" give to them as knowledge with no questions.
Rumsfeld is being scapegoated for a reason, what I don't know. Maybe to cover for someone else? He (Rumsfeld) is quite a big fish to fry but he is being grilled for something we don't see yet.
These wars were planned well in advance of 9/11 there is no lack of evidence, they fairly well brag about it in their writtings and books that's no secret or theory it's all there for the reading. So the let's get behind the president and fight Al Qaeda doesn't ring true for me and many others.
Whoever wants to go that route can but I'm not going with you. This country is being dismantled while we're all watching what's happening "over there" and being "patriotic" following these "leaders". We are not being told the truth and haven't been from the get go. Evil in high places, corporate corruption, and global criminal activity is rampant and I refuse to buy into all the smokescreens. I am a Christian first and foremost, I am a patriot that loves my country and have nothing but the highest respect for our fighting men and women that are being used so badly in these wars. It isn't about winning or losing it's about destroying this military, bringing America down from the inside and setting up the United Nations to take control of the countries we "liberate" it's a global "good cop/bad cop" scam with a hundred smokescreens thrown in for good measure.
You that wish to can follow whatever line of reasoning these "leaders" offer by all means feel free while you still can. Just don't expect me to go along while my countrymen and my country is used up for evil globalist desires. I find absolutly nothing "patriotic" or heroic about the way these people are operating.
Merry Christmas to all.
I've already stated my thoughts on this matter so I won't repeat too much of that. I'm convinced some of you will find fault with our leadership no matter what and you will dwell upon it to no end.
I have in my possession a number of letters written (copies) and received from soldiers and others over the years. I have one sitting on my desk right now. It dates back to the 1990 war in Iraq. It's from a 1LT who was a company commander to whom I written. The particulars aren't important to this group except that he wrote with great enthusiasm just like his counterparts do today. This same man, then a LTC and battalion commander, was killed earlier this year in the most recent war in Iraq. He was a very admired and respected leader among his troops and others such as me. His death was a tremendous loss to his family and friends as well as to the military. He was honored with an outstanding funeral and memorial. He would have surely risen higher in rank with time had he not made the sacrifice he did. But his death, although mourned, became a rally for those fighting and for other units such as his. He will be remembered and will be an inspiration to many young leaders starting their military service.
If you want to do something worthwhile with respect to letter writing, stop complaining about what the President and Secretary of Defense do (which is everything they should do and probably more), and get out your own pen and paper. Plenty of men and women need words of encouragement that what they're doing is a just cause and we value their sacrifices - not reports of dissent and disgust. Tell them we want them to fight as hard as they must to the point of death if necessary yet we pray for them every day. Tell them America - the citizens, the leaders, the industry, the whole country - is with them all the way.
Patrick
I have in my possession a number of letters written (copies) and received from soldiers and others over the years. I have one sitting on my desk right now. It dates back to the 1990 war in Iraq. It's from a 1LT who was a company commander to whom I written. The particulars aren't important to this group except that he wrote with great enthusiasm just like his counterparts do today. This same man, then a LTC and battalion commander, was killed earlier this year in the most recent war in Iraq. He was a very admired and respected leader among his troops and others such as me. His death was a tremendous loss to his family and friends as well as to the military. He was honored with an outstanding funeral and memorial. He would have surely risen higher in rank with time had he not made the sacrifice he did. But his death, although mourned, became a rally for those fighting and for other units such as his. He will be remembered and will be an inspiration to many young leaders starting their military service.
If you want to do something worthwhile with respect to letter writing, stop complaining about what the President and Secretary of Defense do (which is everything they should do and probably more), and get out your own pen and paper. Plenty of men and women need words of encouragement that what they're doing is a just cause and we value their sacrifices - not reports of dissent and disgust. Tell them we want them to fight as hard as they must to the point of death if necessary yet we pray for them every day. Tell them America - the citizens, the leaders, the industry, the whole country - is with them all the way.
Patrick
The Galatian
Active Member
I guess the one good thing is that Rumsfeld's meeting with the troops embarassed the administration sufficiently to speed up the supply line so that our people will be adequately equipped soon.
And that will save some lives. Be grateful for that, it's no small thing that a few more American soldiers will live to come home again.
And that will save some lives. Be grateful for that, it's no small thing that a few more American soldiers will live to come home again.
Today's troops are very well equipped, trained, and lead. A lot of people are working hard to get even better equipment to the troops. No one in our leadership is working against that. There are many priorities to be met besides just uparmored Humvees and body armor.
In the mean time everyone has to improvise, deal with priorities based on METT not politics, and continue the fight regardless. We did that in Viet Nam and today's troops can do - and are doing - it just as well if not better.
We'd liked to have had today's body armor and uparmored Humvees in Viet Nam! We got the best we could get and we filled in the gaps. You should have seen some of the improvised gun jeeps and gun trucks for example. We were happy when we got better equipment but we didn't wait for it. The guys in Korea and World War II would have probably been real happy with what we had.
Patrick
The supply line has been busy for a long time and will indeed soon address most of this goal. That will indeed be a good thing but the news media, politicians, and complainers need not take any undeserved credit for it. None of them would have had the experience or motiviation to come up with the stuff much less actually provide it. The credit should go to the logisitcal system that developed, tested, produced, and fielded the equipment along with the chain of command that pushed for it as quickly as possible.
Patrick
Pennsylvania Jim
New Member
Sort of like a military version of helping companies move their factories to China?
I suppose making sure the Iraqi troops have body armor is one of them? The administration sure did that, while leaving our own troops without it! </font>[/QUOTE]Iraqi troops, overall, are no where nearly as well equipped as ours are! Some units received certain equipment because of their METT priorities. Part of our mission is to get the maximum involvement of Iraqi military and police forces into sorting out and dealing with the bad guys there. They're taking a lot of casualties doing that. Getting them well equipped is important for the overall mission to be successful and, in the end, from a more selfish perspective, will get us out sooner.
Commanders have to make decisions based upon needs, relative risks, etc. every day. They try to provide those with the most need - perhaps the most risk - with certain equipment and supplies before others. In some cases that means certain allied units may get some equipment before our own. It's not as easy as saying "give everyone everything they need right now" and then just watching it happen. This has always been the case in war and in the military. If you've been there and seen it you know it's just never an ideal situation - never enough troops, enough firepower, or enough equipment - and there are always plenty of lessons learned.
The uparmored Hummvee started out being a vehicle in the TOE of certain units - notably Infantry, Armor, MP, etc. - most likely to be engaged in situations where protection against small caliber rounds and small fragmentation shells was desirable. They also provided a better platform for a machine gun, automatic grenade launcher, etc. Even so these vehicles aren't armored in the sense of a AFV or tank. The risk is still not zero and never will be. A rocket will take out an uparmored Hummvee. The standard Hummvee were for general us where the risk was less but certainly not zero. The Army invested in other equipment for more effective war fighting to some extent still based on cold war doctrine of large scale land battles between heavily armored forces. No one knows exactly what the needs of tomorrow's war will be which is why we often have to make changes to fit the need. Americans are good at that fortunately! They haven't been easily discouraged by problems and short comings. They haven't invested a lot of time in blaming one another for it either.
The war being fought by our enemy now is a war of terrorism. They make unpredictable attacks to get spectacular results especially in the news media. From a tactical point of view the attacks have no real significance but from a morale point of view they can have a really big effect if we let them. I'm reminded at this point of the Tet 1968 attack on the US Embassy! We must not let them win on the evening news or this forum! One of the greatest desires of the terrorists is to cause people - like you and me - to have grave doubts about how things are going, to instill constant fear, and to encourage us to cut short our work. Our military commanders know this and understand it. It's difficult to combat against because one roadside mine, one mortar round, etc. can have major political effects. Meanwhile, each day the rats continue to be ferreted and exterminated. Meanwhile, Iraqi security forces gain a better grip on their new nation and get one step closer to a better future for their people. Let's not loose faith!
Patrick
Patrick
L
liebeskind
Guest
Poncho, I could not have said it any better!!!!!!
Ron
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
It is far eaiser for the insurgeants to redirect their efforts against 'soft' targets when a target becomes hardened than it is for the US Military Supply LInes to suddenly change course and priorities...
Even in peacetime with a Priority One Coding we had trouble getting supplies on Guam...
Fortunately, we had a 'tech rep' who fostered us canibalizing several broke things to make some good ones...
Good grief the local Wal Mart can't even keep it's shelbes stocked properly and they are in America near main roads!
C.o.t.s. (Commercial Off The Shelf) works great in America but there aren't any 'stores' in Iraq...
And, I defy any one of you, or any group of you, even with the current level of knowledge to put forth a better safer plan for getting the task at hand done...
But, because our leaders and planners aren't Omniscient we want to Castrate them....
BTW: Not a one of them have *ever* claimed to be Omniscient...
I am not saying there aren't problems...
There are...
And, I hope all the whitewashing middlemen get their just desserts, too.
Like a free trip to Iraq'a front lines using only their own planning.
Even in peacetime with a Priority One Coding we had trouble getting supplies on Guam...
Fortunately, we had a 'tech rep' who fostered us canibalizing several broke things to make some good ones...
Good grief the local Wal Mart can't even keep it's shelbes stocked properly and they are in America near main roads!
C.o.t.s. (Commercial Off The Shelf) works great in America but there aren't any 'stores' in Iraq...
And, I defy any one of you, or any group of you, even with the current level of knowledge to put forth a better safer plan for getting the task at hand done...
But, because our leaders and planners aren't Omniscient we want to Castrate them....
BTW: Not a one of them have *ever* claimed to be Omniscient...
I am not saying there aren't problems...
There are...
And, I hope all the whitewashing middlemen get their just desserts, too.
Like a free trip to Iraq'a front lines using only their own planning.
Excellent, relevant, and realistic comments! It's real easy for people to find fault with how things are done in war after the fact.Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
It is far eaiser for the insurgeants to redirect their efforts against 'soft' targets when a target becomes hardened than it is for the US Military Supply LInes to suddenly change course and priorities...
Even in peacetime with a Priority One Coding we had trouble getting supplies on Guam...
Fortunately, we had a 'tech rep' who fostered us canibalizing several broke things to make some good ones...
Good grief the local Wal Mart can't even keep it's shelbes stocked properly and they are in America near main roads!
C.o.t.s. (Commercial Off The Shelf) works great in America but there aren't any 'stores' in Iraq...
And, I defy any one of you, or any group of you, even with the current level of knowledge to put forth a better safer plan for getting the task at hand done...
But, because our leaders and planners aren't Omniscient we want to Castrate them....
BTW: Not a one of them have *ever* claimed to be Omniscient...
I am not saying there aren't problems...
There are...
And, I hope all the whitewashing middlemen get their just desserts, too.
Like a free trip to Iraq'a front lines using only their own planning.
Patrick
I think that attacks on Rumsfeld for not signing condolence letters is nitpicky. He should not be doing that. That is nothing but partisan politics.
There is however valid criticism to be made against him. Many Republicans who depised Clinton attacked him for his poor handling of Somalia that led to the "Black Hawk Down" incident but give Bush and Rummy a pass.
A commander is to prepare for the worst possible situation and Rumsfeld and General Myers were caught flat footed in this area. I think Bush must get some new leadership if we hope to win this war. I have Constitutional problems with the War BUT the fact is we are there and we must win.
There is however valid criticism to be made against him. Many Republicans who depised Clinton attacked him for his poor handling of Somalia that led to the "Black Hawk Down" incident but give Bush and Rummy a pass.
A commander is to prepare for the worst possible situation and Rumsfeld and General Myers were caught flat footed in this area. I think Bush must get some new leadership if we hope to win this war. I have Constitutional problems with the War BUT the fact is we are there and we must win.
L
liebeskind
Guest
What war Kiffen?
This is not a war, it's a mistake and a joke! Rumsfeld suited Saddam up with all he needed for Iran, with the help of 800 million Dollars for Saudi Arabia, why, because Iran was going for the Saudi's, and not for thier riches but because they believe they were corrupting Islam by westernizing it. It you know the truth about islam, why would Shiate kill Shiate? The only reason for Shiate participation in the war with Iran, is that Iraq had the backing of a military power, USA. But look what has happen now because of Rumsfeld, an Iranian backed and funded Shiate is running for President in Iraq and will win, because of the bad dealings of Daddy Bush and Rumsfeld. They shook hands with Saddam, they wanted to overthrow Saddam, they told the Iraqi Shiate's that they will help them overthrow Saddam but then turn thier back on them, while letting Saddam killed them.
I stated this before, people don't forget what you've done to them in the past, they may let you think that, but they never forget. And the Shiate will never forget or forgive Rumsfeld and Bush. They sowed in the past, no the chickens are coming home to roast!
So when it is all seaid and done Bush and Rumsfeld will be none for destroying America as we saw it before 911!
Ron
The Galatian
Active Member
Agreed. Whether we agree politically with these guys or not, we need to win this war, and we need to have competent leadership in place.
That's not the case now. Rumsfeld has bungled too many things. It's time for him to go.
That's not the case now. Rumsfeld has bungled too many things. It's time for him to go.