Sabbath Keepers

[HankD]

According to the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19 they include God's Commandments -- God's Ten Commandments.

They say that because they know that the New Covenant is found in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and when he write that God will "write My Law on their heart and mind" that term has to be taken in terms of what Jeremiah and HIS readers would have known as "the LAW of God" the moral law that defines what sin is -

And that means the TEN Commandments would be included in it. Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 - admit to that Bible detail and thus uphold the practice of "exegesis" when interpreting Jeremiah 31:31-33.

I don't care what the "Baptist Confession of Faith says"

In the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
In the NT "the LAW defines what sin is - it brings a knowledge of what sin is" Romans 3:19-21
In the NT that SAME law CONTINUEs to " hold ALL the world accountable to God" Rom 3:19-21 showing that all need the Gospel -- instead of being "deleted"

Agreed, the law convicts of sin, condemns and brings a death sentence. However the New Covenant commandments of God are not the mosaic Law.

Thus Jeremiah says God will "Write His LAW on the heart and mind" when defining what the New Covenant IS

The Law of love
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

 

[TCassidy]

I don't care what the "Baptist Confession of Faith says"

Me either. There is no such thing as The Baptist Confession of Faith.

To think that all Baptists would agree to a single confession is idiotic. You can't even get Baptists to whistle "Yankee Doodle" in unison, let alone agree to a single confession of faith.

 

[utilyan]

Exodus 20:8-11 - rest.
Lev 23:2-3 - Holy Convocation (Praise and worship)
Is 66:23 - holy convocation (Praise and worship) - for all eternity after the cross - in New Earth

Bible study and evangelism -- not secular activity
Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;


Mark 2:27 - "Sabbath was made for mankind" - specifically setting scope for Sabbath.
Isaiah 56:6-8 Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gather for Gospel preaching and worship in the Synagogue
Acts 15 - the Crisis for the NT solved in part because "Moses is preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues"



Bible texts do count as scripture -- right?

Lev 23:32 - from evening to evening shall you celebrate the Sabbath

I do that everyday. I would dare say you and plenty of folks on this board do that everyday.


You are missing an altar and a holy sacrifice.

God says proper worship requires a pure offering.

Malachi 1

10“Oh that there were one among you who would shut the gates, that you might not uselessly kindle fire on My altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the LORD of hosts, “nor will I accept an offering from you. 11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.


"in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure"


Justin Martyr:

"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

Clement of Rome:

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Bible predicts that the mark of the beast scenario will play out in the future as Rev 13 and 14 state. This is irrefutable

Rev 14 contrasts the saints who "keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- with -- those who receive the mark of the beast - and it says this is all future. -- this is irrefutable

That is a prediction about what is in our future -- -- this is irrefutable

Those who receive the mark of the beast are sinning in that future scenario and 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" -- -- this is irrefutable

"You" apparently "predict" that the future being described in that text will not include the sin of Sabbath breaking

Ellen White claimed that God gave her a vision of that future event and that it most certainly did include that sin, and that Sabbath commandment is in fact one of the TEN Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant (as even most non-SDA groups will admit to one degree or another when they admit that it is the TEN that God writes on the heart.)

We will see which of the two of you are making the correct prediction about the future when we get to it - for now I think Ellen White's message from God will end up being correct and your wild-guess about that future will be less-than.

Time will tell who is right.

By saying what you are, that all those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast and be damned to hell, you are saying that we are NOT born-again, saved Christians. This is a very serious charge which I have reported to the administrators here, and requested that you and all those who hold such views are banned from BB. Your theology is warped, you peddle a teaching that you do not understand, you reject that the NT as I have shown before, is very clear that the First Day (Sunday) is the Day to worship the Lord. You reject the testimony of Church history, that also shows that the Day was changed. Yet you claim EGW, a PROVED FALSE "prophet", who under Bible terms, should have been stoned to death for claiming the Lord spoke to her, when actually is was the devil, is right with her demonic teachings.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Can you give the specific time range for the Sabbath, what you are allowed to do and what you are not allowed to do and what you are required to do on the Sabbath?

You must consult with the Torah

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Me either. There is no such thing as The Baptist Confession of Faith.

To think that all Baptists would agree to a single confession is idiotic. You can't even get Baptists to whistle "Yankee Doodle" in unison, let alone agree to a single confession of faith.

Indeed, I am a Particular Baptist, and I will never whistle "Yankee Doodle"!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Indeed, I am a Particular Baptist, and I will never whistle "Yankee Doodle"!

I’d never whistle Dixie either

 

[utilyan]

By saying what you are, that all those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast and be damned to hell, you are saying that we are NOT born-again, saved Christians. This is a very serious charge which I have reported to the administrators here, and requested that you and all those who hold such views are banned from BB. Your theology is warped, you peddle a teaching that you do not understand, you reject that the NT as I have shown before, is very clear that the First Day (Sunday) is the Day to worship the Lord. You reject the testimony of Church history, that also shows that the Day was changed. Yet you claim EGW, a PROVED FALSE "prophet", who under Bible terms, should have been stoned to death for claiming the Lord spoke to her, when actually is was the devil, is right with her demonic teachings.

"This is a very serious charge which I have reported to the administrators here, and requested that you and all those who hold such views are banned from BB."

We didn't see Jesus or the apostles look for legalistic ways to strong arm oppositions or kill them legally.
If God's on your side you don't need to play dirty.

Us, them , you...... our intentions are not evil. If you are motivated by anger, spite, hatred, that is not God.


"Your theology is warped, you peddle a teaching that you do not understand, you reject that the NT as I have shown before, is very clear that the First Day (Sunday) is the Day to worship the Lord."

I'm a Sunday worshiper....but show me this plainly stated in scripture.


"By saying what you are, that all those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast and be damned to hell, you are saying that we are NOT born-again, saved Christians."

They already stated and obvious blanket of invincible ignorance as reasonable enough God to know our intentions, hearts and minds. So you are putting false words in their mouths in a attempt to ban them by dirty means.


Am I a born-again, saved christian? Please...... If you don't say yes whats that mean?


Although these guys believe their faith is only right one like pretty much most of you, they couldn't hold a candle to the pure EVIL and NAZI SPIRITUALISM held by some folks in present company concerning the character of God.

"should have been stoned to death"
Of course you would like that.

If we had to vote who is the pharisee on this thread, you sir are #1.

 

[BobRyan]

Saved-By-Grace said: ↑
So, do you agree with Mrs White, that all those who worship on Sunday, instead of Saturday, will receive the mark of the beast,

The Bible predicts that the mark of the beast scenario will play out in the future as Rev 13 and 14 state. This is irrefutable

Rev 14 contrasts the saints who "keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- with -- those who receive the mark of the beast - and it says this is all future. -- this is irrefutable

That is a prediction about what is in our future -- -- this is irrefutable

Those who receive the mark of the beast are sinning in that future scenario and 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" -- -- this is irrefutable

"You" apparently "predict" that the future being described in that text will not include the sin of Sabbath breaking

Ellen White claimed that God gave her a vision of that future event and that it most certainly did include that sin, and that Sabbath commandment is in fact one of the TEN Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant (as even most non-SDA groups will admit to one degree or another when they admit that it is the TEN that God writes on the heart.)

In other words - God told Ellen White that the future prediction in Rev 13 and 14 would include a thought-police style of religious intolerance -- even among some Christians

We will see which of the two of you are making the correct prediction about the future when we get to it - for now I think Ellen White's message from God will end up being correct and your wild-guess about that future will be less-than.

Time will tell who is right.

then comes "ignoring every detail in the post"

By saying what you are,

Well ok then -- you argue for "The less attention to detail the better for false accusation"

I have reported to the administrators here, and requested that you and all those who hold such views are banned from BB.

Have you heard of the term "snow flake"??

A. This is not my thread
B. We "noticed" that your own future-prediction topic is "your topic" about future predictions not mine..
C. then you implode when a prediction about the future you bring up -- is discussed that does not agree with your own prediction about the future??

How ... thought-police of you.
Are you trying to make "my point" or yours??

How "predictable"

How like that modern term -- snow-flake

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
I would like our Sabbath Keepers to spell out their practice of keeping the Sabbath, with Scripture references.

]Exodus 20:8-11 - rest. an entire 24 hour period with no secular distraction, no secular activity.
Lev 23:2-3 - Holy Convocation (Praise and worship)
Is 66:23 - holy convocation (Praise and worship) - for all eternity after the cross - in New Earth

Bible study and evangelism -- not secular activity
Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;


Mark 2:27 - "Sabbath was made for mankind" - specifically setting scope for Sabbath.
Isaiah 56:6-8 Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gather for Gospel preaching and worship in the Synagogue
Acts 15 - the Crisis for the NT solved in part because "Moses is preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues"

Lev 23:32 - from evening to evening shall you celebrate the Sabbath so then - no secular activity at all - no shopping, no sports, no work.. (There was a time ages ago when the RCC itself had a clear idea of what that meant for a 24 hour period - only on the wrong day)

I do that everyday.

I am inclined to doubt it --

Even the monks do not do that 7 days a week.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

"This is a very serious charge which I have reported to the administrators here, and requested that you and all those who hold such views are banned from BB."

We didn't see Jesus or the apostles look for legalistic ways to strong arm oppositions or kill them legally.
If God's on your side you don't need to play dirty.

Us, them , you...... our intentions are not evil. If you are motivated by anger, spite, hatred, that is not God.


"Your theology is warped, you peddle a teaching that you do not understand, you reject that the NT as I have shown before, is very clear that the First Day (Sunday) is the Day to worship the Lord."

I'm a Sunday worshiper....but show me this plainly stated in scripture.


"By saying what you are, that all those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast and be damned to hell, you are saying that we are NOT born-again, saved Christians."

They already stated and obvious blanket of invincible ignorance as reasonable enough God to know our intentions, hearts and minds. So you are putting false words in their mouths in a attempt to ban them by dirty means.


Am I a born-again, saved christian? Please...... If you don't say yes whats that mean?


Although these guys believe their faith is only right one like pretty much most of you, they couldn't hold a candle to the pure EVIL and NAZI SPIRITUALISM held by some folks in present company concerning the character of God.

"should have been stoned to death"
Of course you would like that.

If we had to vote who is the pharisee on this thread, you sir are #1.

This is supposed to be a Christian board, where most of the people posting are "baptist" (hence the name), and would be "born again". It is NOT right that ANYONE should be allowed to say that those who worship on Sunday, will be sent to hell, even though they might not say so directly, but they do so indirectly. You argue from ignorance and don't even know what you are saying. IF you care to search on the net, you will see that Mrs White, one of the SDA's "prophets", as very clearly said that those who worship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast. If you know your Bible as you make out you do, you will see from Revelation that those who receive this mark, will be cast into the lake of fire, which means they must be unsaved, as no saved person will ever go there. You should not get involved in posts when you don't know what you are on about!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Bible predicts that the mark of the beast scenario will play out in the future as Rev 13 and 14 state. This is irrefutable

Rev 14 contrasts the saints who "keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- with -- those who receive the mark of the beast - and it says this is all future. -- this is irrefutable

That is a prediction about what is in our future -- -- this is irrefutable

Those who receive the mark of the beast are sinning in that future scenario and 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" -- -- this is irrefutable

"You" apparently "predict" that the future being described in that text will not include the sin of Sabbath breaking

Ellen White claimed that God gave her a vision of that future event and that it most certainly did include that sin, and that Sabbath commandment is in fact one of the TEN Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant (as even most non-SDA groups will admit to one degree or another when they admit that it is the TEN that God writes on the heart.)

We will see which of the two of you are making the correct prediction about the future when we get to it - for now I think Ellen White's message from God will end up being correct and your wild-guess about that future will be less-than.

Time will tell who is right.

then comes "ignoring every detail in the post"



Well ok then -- you argue for "The less attention to detail the better for false accusation"



Have you heard of the term "snow flake"??

A. This is not my thread
B. We "noticed" that your own future-prediction topic is "your topic" about future predictions not mine..
C. then you implode when a prediction about the future you bring up -- is discussed that does not agree with your own prediction about the future??

How ... thought-police of you.
How "predictable"

How like that modern term -- snow-flake

your blindness is very obvious to the Truth of Scripture. there are MANY Commandments that God has given in the Holy Bible, so it is rather foolish to assume that when the word "Commandment" is used, it must always refer to the Ten Commandments. WHERE in the Book of Revelation does it refer to the TEN Commandments, and and say the breaking of THESE will result in eternal punishment? WHERE in the NT can you see the FOURTH Commandment reaffirmed or used to show that any true believer must keep it? Mrs White is a FALSE prophet, who LIED by saying that God gave her "visions", especially of the Return of Jesus Christ, which NEVER took place. So, if she claims that this was from God, then God made a mistake, which is IMPOSSIBLE, so the ONLY conclusion is, that Mrs White is a DECEIVED FALSE "prophet". When these events never took place, she changed what they meant, to cover-up her deceptions, and yet there are some like you who are also deceived by her LIES and DECEPTIONS. She also claimed that he writings were "inspired" as those of the OT Prophets, which is further proof she was a "prophet" of the devil.

 

[HankD]

On the other hand where would Bob get enlightenment if SDA folks are put out?

But I agree he shouldn't make provocative statements and there should be some sort of accountability.

We can make these kind of statements because the BB is established and maintained by Baptists who keep the faith every day 24/7 resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Bob is a guest here.

How long would any of us last going on an SDA blog and calling their leader a false prophet(ess)?

 

[BobRyan]

This is supposed to be a Christian board, where most of the people posting are "baptist" (hence the name), and would be "born again".

And you would "think" that this would lead to NOT insisting on a thought-police style religious intolerance and that it would NOT lead to "games" where every effort is made to ignore every text... every detail.. in the posts one is responding to.

You would think it would NOT lead to false-accusation after false-accusation of the snow-flake variety.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible predicts that the mark of the beast scenario will play out in the future as Rev 13 and 14 state. This is irrefutable

Rev 14 contrasts the saints who "keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- with -- those who receive the mark of the beast - and it says this is all future. -- this is irrefutable

That is a prediction about what is in our future -- -- this is irrefutable

Those who receive the mark of the beast are sinning in that future scenario and 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" -- -- this is irrefutable

"You" apparently "predict" that the future being described in that text will not include the sin of Sabbath breaking

Ellen White claimed that God gave her a vision of that future event and that it most certainly did include that sin, and that Sabbath commandment is in fact one of the TEN Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant (as even most non-SDA groups will admit to one degree or another when they admit that it is the TEN that God writes on the heart.)

In other words - God told Ellen White that the future prediction in Rev 13 and 14 would include a thought-police style of religious intolerance -- even among some Christians

We will see which of the two of you are making the correct prediction about the future when we get to it - for now I think Ellen White's message from God will end up being correct and your wild-guess about that future will be less-than.

Time will tell who is right.

Have you heard of the term "snow flake"??

A. This is not my thread
B. We "noticed" that your own future-prediction topic is "your topic" about future predictions not mine..
C. then you implode when a prediction about the future you bring up -- is discussed that does not agree with your own prediction about the future??

How ... thought-police of you.
Are you trying to make "my point" or yours??

How "predictable" (to ignore every single detail in the post, every text quoted, every response given)

your blindness is very obvious to the Truth of Scripture.

This is where your habit of false-accusation piling-on could have used an ounce of "attention to scripture details just posted".

there are MANY Commandments that God has given in the Holy Bible, so it is rather foolish to assume that when the word "Commandment" is used, it must always refer to the Ten Commandments.

If you have some "proof" other than wild-guess that the Saints "keeping the Commandments of God" in Rev 14:12 "MUST not include God's TEN Commandments" -- then feel free to post an actual text ... for a change.

Meanwhile "the 5th Commandment is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - speaks of that UNIT of Ten.

Meanwhile "the Commandment of God" as mentioned by Christ in Mark 7:6-13 is specifically from the TEN Commandments

Meanwhile when Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" in Matthew 19 and is asked "which ones" He specifically quotes from the TEN Commandments

Meanwhile even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 admits that the TEN Commandments are included in that LAW that is "Written on the heart" under the New Covenant.

Your "practice" of ignoring all the texts and all the details in the posts -- has not served you well - hence your frequent resort to vitriol.

Your post filled with vitriol and acrimony only fits into the solution known as "loud intolerant pulpit pounding" not dialogue that reflects the Spirit of Truth,

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

And you would "think" that this would lead to NOT insisting on a thought-police style religious intolerance and that it would NOT lead to "games" where every effort is made to ignore every text... every detail.. in the posts one is responding to.

You would think it would NOT lead to false-accusation after false-accusation of the snow-flake variety.

see, you cannot argue your points, because you KNOW they are FALSE. So, you make some rather foolish remarks. I have asked you to provide ONE passage in the NT, esp Revelation, where, 1. Christians are commanded to keep the Ten Commandments, 2. that the word used in Revelation which you much quote, shows 100% that it is the Ten Commandments, that is meant? You fail to show this because you CANNOT. You cannot respond to what I say about EGW, because you KNOW that what I have said is TRUE. Her so-called "visions" from the Lord have been shown to be FALSE, but yet there are those deluded who will still follow her LIES.

Something for you to read prayerfully, Time Setting by Ellen G. White

 

[HankD]

Bob, you are a guest here - use a little wisdom.

Turn the other cheek?

 

[BobRyan]

On the other hand where would Bob get enlightenment if SDA folks are put out?

But I agree he shouldn't make provocative statements

Hint: this is about "future predictions" and I did not bring it up - I was specifically asked to speak about it.


I simply point out that the future prediction SBG makes is not in agreement with the one we find in Rev 13 and 14 and the one God showed Ellen White - (since SBG specifically asked me to address that point).

I then say that God said there would be a future of sin, commandment breaking and religious intolerance of other Christians (similar to what happened already in the dark ages) -- and SBG thought to refute that prediction by predicting that it would not happen and then inexplicably demonstrating an example of thought-police religious-intolerance of other Christians "as if" that would solidify his/her point.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Bible predicts that the mark of the beast scenario will play out in the future as Rev 13 and 14 state. This is irrefutable

Rev 14 contrasts the saints who "keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- with -- those who receive the mark of the beast - and it says this is all future. -- this is irrefutable

That is a prediction about what is in our future -- -- this is irrefutable

Those who receive the mark of the beast are sinning in that future scenario and 1 John 3:4 says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" -- -- this is irrefutable

"You" apparently "predict" that the future being described in that text will not include the sin of Sabbath breaking

Ellen White claimed that God gave her a vision of that future event and that it most certainly did include that sin, and that Sabbath commandment is in fact one of the TEN Commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant (as even most non-SDA groups will admit to one degree or another when they admit that it is the TEN that God writes on the heart.)

In other words - God told Ellen White that the future prediction in Rev 13 and 14 would include a thought-police style of religious intolerance -- even among some Christians

We will see which of the two of you are making the correct prediction about the future when we get to it - for now I think Ellen White's message from God will end up being correct and your wild-guess about that future will be less-than.

Time will tell who is right.

Have you heard of the term "snow flake"??

A. This is not my thread
B. We "noticed" that your own future-prediction topic is "your topic" about future predictions not mine..
C. then you implode when a prediction about the future you bring up -- is discussed that does not agree with your own prediction about the future??

How ... thought-police of you.
Are you trying to make "my point" or yours??

How "predictable" (to ignore every single detail in the post, every text quoted, every response given)



This is where your habit of false-accusation piling-on could have used an ounce of "attention to scripture details just posted".



If you have some "proof" other than wild-guess that the Saints "keeping the Commandments of God" in Rev 14:12 "MUST not include God's TEN Commandments" -- then feel free to post an actual text ... for a change.

Meanwhile "the 5th Commandment is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - speaks of that UNIT of Ten.

Meanwhile "the Commandment of God" as mentioned by Christ in Mark 7:6-13 is specifically from the TEN Commandments

Meanwhile when Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" in Matthew 19 and is asked "which ones" He specifically quotes from the TEN Commandments

Meanwhile even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 admits that the TEN Commandments are included in that LAW that is "Written on the heart" under the New Covenant.

Your "practice" of ignoring all the texts and all the details in the posts -- has not served you well - hence your frequent resort to vitriol.

Your post filled with vitriol and acrimony only fits into the solution known as "loud intolerant pulpit pounding" not dialogue that reflects the Spirit of Truth,

In other words - God told Ellen White that the future prediction in Rev 13 and 14 would include a thought-police style of religious intolerance -- even among some Christians"

WHY would the God of the Holy Bible tell ANYTHING to someone who clearly is a FALSE "prophet"? There are NO True Prophets after the OT and NT Canons of the Bible were closed. EGW's "predictions" about Jesus' Second Coming were 100% FALSE, as Jesus has NOT come back!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you are a guest here - use a little wisdom.

Turn the other cheek?

I am pointing out that the very behavior that SBG predicts will not happen in the future - the very thought-police religious intolerance of other Christians - that SBG predicts cannot possibly happen in the future.. is being demonstrated ... inexplicably ... "as if" that proves the veracity of the future prediction that SBG is making.

That fact that SBG is the one who is dragging this point up to start with - is "instructive" -- It is not my initiative to bring it up at all -- nor was it mine to jump in to someone else discussing it. I was specifically asked to address it.