yeshua4me2
New Member
oh and it's not the seal of God, and Sunday is not the mark of the beast.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Sabbath "Remains" for the People of God Heb 4
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Lets review the "details" of his point.
In fact your quote in the previos is that it is NOT binding on non-Jews and never was!
You are in direct disptute with Moody's position -- (note the "details" please).
Obviously you are in direct opposition to Moody on that particular point.
In Christ,
Bob
Here Moody argues that it is the SABBATH commandment (the 4th commandment) that was binding in Eden. And binding upon mankind for it was "made for mankind". Your 85 charges that mankind DID NOT keep this until Sinai when given to ISrael "only".
In fact your quote in the previos is that it is NOT binding on non-Jews and never was!
You are in direct disptute with Moody's position -- (note the "details" please).
You argue that only Jews in America are under the command - Moody argues that it is all of the church and all of America that depends on it.
Obviously you are in direct opposition to Moody on that particular point.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. Moody is not a Seventh-day Adventist and I never claimed he was.
#2. The SPECIFIC POINTS he endorses about the Sabbath commandment are in full , obvious and direct contradiction with your list of 85. This is beyond dispute.
#3. Moody argues for an "editable" Sabbath commandment after the cross - something I don't agree with. He claims that HIS Sabbath is Saturday but not out of any faithful rendering of THE 7th day but rather out of convenience. You can point out all day long that this is at least one area where Moody and I differ - and I will agree with you all day.
#4. The devastating problem is that the specifics in your 85 are opposed to Moody's positions not just mine! Yet you claim to be serious about all of them!!
Excellent! Now we are getting some place. The foundational Points that Moody and OTHER non-Sabbath keeping saints of the 19th century agreed to - you oppose -- NOT just the views that Adventists have with that group but you oppose those great men of faith in their respect for Christ the Creator's Holy Day "in general".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. That is a lot of guesswork not exegesis.
#2. The Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:% "Royal Law" to Love God with all the heart and Love your neighbor as yourself - was JUST as well "fulfilled" (as in obeyed rather than rebelled against) by Christ as the command not to take God's name in Vain or the command to Honor parents (the FIRST command in the SET OF TEN with a promise - Eph 6:1-2)
No it does not.
It says our DEBT OF SIN was paid at the cross - nailed to the cross.
"The Certificate of DEBT consisting of decrees AGAINST US" NAS.
This is the same BIBLE-based idea of Christ PAYING the DEBT that the Law says we owe. IF instead of PAYING that debt he destroys his own law -- then a law-destroyed is NOT written on the heart and you are not under the New Covenant.
Making stuff up about Col 2 because it helps you "get at" Christ the Creator's Holy Day - does nothing "for" the Gospel!
Paul declares that INSTEAD of the Gospel abolishing God's Law it "establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
Hence we see the Saints EVEN down at the end of time "Keeping the Commandments of God" Rev 12 just as Christ said in John 14 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If your intent is to toss out the Gospels and the words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as "not applicable to Christians" - then you are on the right track!
By "contrast" In Matt 28 Christ tells His followers to TEACH others what HE TAUGHT THEM - and the RESULT of that instruction is that they PUBLISH the 4 Gospels SHOWING His teaching!!
The very teaching which your statement above appears to insist that we ignore!!
This is a logical path for you to go down having rejected Christ the Creator's Sabbath, and then His unit of Ten, and then His words IN general spoken in the Gospels etc.
Your argument simply digs its hole deeper and deeper. At some point you are well advised to throw away the shovel and climb out.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
IF the Sabbath given in Eden (as Moody claims) was binding then and now - and if that Law as GIVEN by God was "really" only given as a principle (as you say) then it REMAINS a it always did even by your own twist of logic.
But of course - you reject that as well.
So you ALSO seem to say that although GIVEN as a principle and this is the REAL meaning of the command - it is now NOT to be kept as actually STATED by God for to obey Christ the Creator on that commandment would be denying grace according to your list of 85!!
Your logic has gone "both ways" here and has fallen back on itself in contradiction.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Wrong.
In Lev 18 we "see" sins for which gentiles were wiped out. Sins also for which Israel was to be wiped out should they follow them.
Moody presents the Creator's Day as Holy in Eden and so Does Scripture in Gen 2:2-3
Moody notes that it is NON-Jews in Eden upon whom the the day is binding (as "Sabbath" in his words) - and so does scripture in Exodus 20:8-11 as it speaks to the Gen 2 "details" to make its case.
Secondly you include Gentiles that choose to worship and follow the ONE true God. AS IF God was going to get "Sabbath keeping" out of people NOT trying to worship the One True God!! (What kind of logic is that!!??)
Do you have some case of non-Jew true worshippers of God being told in the OT to ignore Christ the Creator's Holy Day??
Because I certainly DO have examples of TRUE worshippers of God - non-Jews - commended FOR honoring Christ the Creator's OWN Holy day!!
I guess if you ignore Adam and Eve - (in opposition to Moody and scripture) and if you ignore Isaiah 66 showing it applicable to ALL mankind in the new earth, and if you ignore the words of Christ in Mark 2:27 sayint that WHEN it was MADE it was MADE for mankind (not merely jews) --
You might reach such a Sabbath-denying POV. But Christ the Creator is clear in scripture that rebellion against "his commandments" is not the way His followers show "love to him".
It is merely tradition that has been bent back to oppose the comamndments of Christ the Creator.
It speaks only of the "Shaddow Sabbaths" of Lev 23 - the annual Sabbaths based in animal sacrifices that point FORWARD to the sacrifice of Christ - the SHADOW the sacrifice of Christ.
It is NOT a way to negate the "ALL MANKIND" scope of Mark 2:27 or Isaiah 66 or the non-Jew example we have in Gen 2:2-3 where it is binding OR a way to reject the Heb 4 application of Sabbath to the "People of God".
Jewish "sages" rejecting Christ as the Messiah say that "Satan is a good angel" and the the OT text is NOT for Christians -- that scripture is denied to us.
IF we were to follow their instruction our NT would not be "allowed" to quote OT law LIKE IT DOES!!
Some do some don't. Many Adventists attend Messianic congregations in areas where an Adventist church is not available and find there "Agreement" that the Sabbath of Christ the Creator IS valid for ALL mankind just as scripture teaches.
Great - lets see some in your arguments. This is "common ground" that both sides can agree on.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Indeed - what about not taking God's name in vain, honoring parents, not coveting, honoring Chris the Creator's Holy day....
In this pre-cross instruction of Christ EVEN THE JEWS are arguing that the Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 "Royal Law" is the FOUNDATION for those Ten Commandments.
And Christ AFFIRMS that even PRE-Cross this is true. The Ten commandments REST on the foundation principles of Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 as stated in Mosaic Law.
To break one - is to "break all" as James says.
What was your question?
In Christ,
Bob
yeshua4me2
New Member
again not only me but very many baptists (which i am ) disagree with moody on the binding of the ten commandments. i am say that N
T LAW is binding on christians, only NT LAW as laid out in the epistles, i am absolutly saying that the words of Jesus were for JEWS and not Gentiles and the OT law was binding when he spoke them.
if you could please give me a few days to answer as my wife is off work for the next couple of days.
i was hurt badly in a car accident and my wife provides for the family and on her days off i am 100% her's for those days.
be back on wed, unless she goes shopping....hehehe, then i can get online.
and i am not in opposition to the sabbath, just in opposition to a Jewish sabbath law.
i am argueing against a sabbath law not sabbath keeping.
see you in a couple days, my wife is done showering, gotta go.
thankyou and Godbless
by the way haveing trouble with Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a Shabbat rest for the people of God.
this is your best arguement as te greek word specifies the sabbath rest, asking several pastors about this one, still waiting though.
T LAW is binding on christians, only NT LAW as laid out in the epistles, i am absolutly saying that the words of Jesus were for JEWS and not Gentiles and the OT law was binding when he spoke them. if you could please give me a few days to answer as my wife is off work for the next couple of days.
i was hurt badly in a car accident and my wife provides for the family and on her days off i am 100% her's for those days.
be back on wed, unless she goes shopping....hehehe, then i can get online.
and i am not in opposition to the sabbath, just in opposition to a Jewish sabbath law.
i am argueing against a sabbath law not sabbath keeping.
see you in a couple days, my wife is done showering, gotta go.
thankyou and Godbless
by the way haveing trouble with Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a Shabbat rest for the people of God.
this is your best arguement as te greek word specifies the sabbath rest, asking several pastors about this one, still waiting though.
yeshua4me2
New Member
and Col 2:16 is my best arguement.
yeshua4me2
New Member
By Contrast D.L. Moody says that it is as binding today as it ever was. And that it was binding on the non-Jew "Adam and Eve" observed in the Garden of Eden.
Do you dispute his point?
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]yes, i already said so
yeshua4me2
New Member
Here Moody argues that it is the SABBATH commandment (the 4th commandment) that was binding in Eden. And binding upon mankind for it was "made for mankind". Your 85 charges that mankind DID NOT keep this until Sinai when given to ISrael "only".
In fact your quote in the previos is that it is NOT binding on non-Jews and never was!
You are in direct disptute with Moody's position -- (note the "details" please).
You argue that only Jews in America are under the command - Moody argues that it is all of the church and all of America that depends on it.
Obviously you are in direct opposition to Moody on that particular point.
In Christ,
Bob [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]quoting moody on this point is pointless, as i already said i am in total disagreement with his position, as is my whole denomination, the SBC.
yeshua4me2
New Member
#1. That is a lot of guesswork not exegesis.
no this is fact, count them, of course this takes time, i've had alot of time on my hand, and i have have my Greek NT, a lexicon, and a dictionary, 9 commentaries, 14 sets of translation notes, 32 different translations, 18 months, and lots of pain, as the lady who hit me was going 60 mph in a durango, ouch.
#2. The Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:% "Royal Law" to Love God with all the heart and Love your neighbor as yourself - was JUST as well "fulfilled" (as in obeyed rather than rebelled against) by Christ as the command not to take God's name in Vain or the command to Honor parents (the FIRST command in the SET OF TEN with a promise - Eph 6:1-2)
No it does not.
Col 2:13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 wiping out the HANDWRITTING in ORDINACES (laws) which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;
It says our DEBT OF SIN was paid at the cross - nailed to the cross.
"The Certificate of DEBT consisting of decrees AGAINST US" NAS.
This is the same BIBLE-based idea of Christ PAYING the DEBT that the Law says we owe. IF instead of PAYING that debt he destroys his own law -- then a law-destroyed is NOT written on the heart and you are not under the New Covenant.
Making stuff up about Col 2 because it helps you "get at" Christ the Creator's Holy Day - does nothing "for" the Gospel!
Paul declares that INSTEAD of the Gospel abolishing God's Law it "establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
But he never mentions the sabbath, neither is their one single historical sorce for the sabbath for the first 1000 years.
waldeness are considered heretics by all non cultic denominations.
Hence we see the Saints EVEN down at the end of time "Keeping the Commandments of God" Rev 12 just as Christ said in John 14 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".
the rapture has already occured, there are differences between that dispensation and this one. this is not about dispensationalism, if you do not accept this (which i suspect you do not), start a new thread and those are the tribulatin Jews who are sealed of God as defined by just about ever major SBC preacher out there, oh (though i disagree with some of theit doctrine) and most Assemblies of God preachers.
because your interpretation of the meaning of revalation is horrendous. based on ellen white, the false prophet and liar.
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
yeshua4me2
New Member
If your intent is to toss out the Gospels and the words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as "not applicable to Christians" - then you are on the right track!
Jesus said whosoever is guilty of one part of the law is guilty of the whole law. 47. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16.
By "contrast" In Matt 28 Christ tells His followers to TEACH others what HE TAUGHT THEM - and the RESULT of that instruction is that they PUBLISH the 4 Gospels SHOWING His teaching!!
The very teaching which your statement above appears to insist that we ignore!!
This is a logical path for you to go down having rejected Christ the Creator's Sabbath, and then His unit of Ten, and then His words IN general spoken in the Gospels etc.
Your argument simply digs its hole deeper and deeper. At some point you are well advised to throw away the shovel and climb out.
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
yeshua4me2
New Member
If your intent is to toss out the Gospels and the words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as "not applicable to Christians" - then you are on the right track!
Jesus said whosoever is guilty of one part of the law is guilty of the whole law. and adventist certianly do not keep the whole law.
By "contrast" In Matt 28 Christ tells His followers to TEACH others what HE TAUGHT THEM - and the RESULT of that instruction is that they PUBLISH the 4 Gospels SHOWING His teaching!!
The very teaching which your statement above appears to insist that we ignore!!
and He taught in Is 1:13 "Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths"(strongs 7676 for those who do not read hebrew same as (but different from all words in genesis) the word in lev+),"the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting."
The very teaching which your statement above appears to insist that we ignore!!
This is a logical path for you to go down having rejected Christ the Creator's Sabbath, and then His unit of Ten, and then His words IN general spoken in the Gospels etc.
so you (sda's) keep the law?
Joh 8:51 Verily,281 verily,281 I say3004 unto you,5213 If1437 a man5100 keep5083 my1699 saying,3056( a reasonable synonym is commandments) he shall never3364, 1519, 165 see2334 death.2288
Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
Lev 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
same word in hebrew for commandments as the nevr ending "10",
Lev 5:14 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 5:15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
Lev 5:16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
again more commandments, by saying that wrote them in stone and saying that they are eternal (plaese read all 85 questions as many of your responces are answered in other questions) is completely irelevant as so is the passover which you do not keep.
Your argument simply digs its hole deeper and deeper. At some point you are well advised to throw away the shovel and climb out.
nice summation,but again way off, as you again completely ignored col 2:16 and say reading the plain reading of it is making stuff up, good arguement.
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
It is sad when people do not recognize the difference between the Ten Commandments Royal Law and the other ordinances of God.
Looks like SOMEBODY kept the commandments:
Lk:1:6: "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
...according to the Bible.. and Im betting they were not the only ones who ever did.
Its very sad that some view God as a tyrant and insisting upon telling people to keep Laws that they couldnt keep! What a horrific view of God that is! God does not tell you to do something that you cannot do, AND God is not just sitting there waiting to find some instance where you may have deviated from the Law.
GOD WANTS YOUR HEART, HE WANTS YOUR LOYALTY. God is not a Legalistic God. He wishes for you to understand His ways, His rules of government and follow the law to the best of your ability BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM. You are able to do that.
He wants for His people not to commit willful sin and if we DO turn from God... we have an Advocate and if we repent we will be forgiven.
Mt:19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mt:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Looks like SOMEBODY kept the commandments:
Lk:1:6: "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
...according to the Bible.. and Im betting they were not the only ones who ever did.
Its very sad that some view God as a tyrant and insisting upon telling people to keep Laws that they couldnt keep! What a horrific view of God that is! God does not tell you to do something that you cannot do, AND God is not just sitting there waiting to find some instance where you may have deviated from the Law.
GOD WANTS YOUR HEART, HE WANTS YOUR LOYALTY. God is not a Legalistic God. He wishes for you to understand His ways, His rules of government and follow the law to the best of your ability BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM. You are able to do that.
He wants for His people not to commit willful sin and if we DO turn from God... we have an Advocate and if we repent we will be forgiven.
Mt:19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mt:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It is unfortunate that some view God the Father as the "mean, legalistic one" while Jesus is the "loving and kind one" who pacifies the Father and convinces Him to love us and accept us. This ill-advised view is what causes some Christians to believe God would make commandments that we cannot keep.
Jn:14:9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jn:14:9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
--This is one of Jesus' commandments which he personally gave.
Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
--Never did Christ refer to the law as his law, or the Ten Commandments as his Ten Commandments. They were always "the law" or "the commandments." It seems obvious then that the commandments of Christ do not include the Sabbath, since not once in the New Testament are we commanded to keep the Sabbath, not by Jesus, nor by any of the Apostles. The command to keep the Sabbath is nowhere mentioned in the New Testament.
DHK