Sabbath truth arguements...

[AAA]

My Sunday school class is reading (we are now on chapter 22) through the book of Matthew and in the 24th chapter it mentions the sabbath. The teacher will give time to discuss points about the sabbath topic. So, I will like to see some of you bring up points of arguements tthat will prove from the bible that the Sabbath is NOT on Sunday and we should still worship on the seventh day.....

I will like the arguements in a 1-2-3-ect. format like this:

Arguement #1: The old testiment tells us to remember the sabbath. What does remember mean to us and why?

2. Why does JESUS tell us to pray that our flight will not be on the sabbath if the sabbath command is not to be obeyed today?

3. Why do we obey 9 of the 10 commandments of GOD as commandments of GOD and we treat the FORTH COMMANDMENT as if it were only a suggestion?

ok. your turn.....

4.

5.

6.

7. and etc.....


I am needing this a.s.a.p.
Thanks for your help.

 

[BobRyan]

My Sunday school class is reading (we are now on chapter 22) through the book of Matthew and in the 24th chapter it mentions the sabbath. The teacher will give time to discuss points about the sabbath topic. So, I will like to see some of you bring up points of arguements tthat will prove from the bible that the Sabbath is NOT on Sunday and we should still worship on the seventh day.....

I will like the arguements in a 1-2-3-ect. format like this:

Arguement #1: The old testiment tells us to remember the sabbath. What does remember mean to us and why?

2. Why does JESUS tell us to pray that our flight will not be on the sabbath if the sabbath command is not to be obeyed today?

3. Why do we obey 9 of the 10 commandments of GOD as commandments of GOD and we treat the FORTH COMMANDMENT as if it were only a suggestion?

ok. your turn.....

4. Mark 2:27 Jesus said "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" - referencing Creation week where BOTH were MADE. (Gen 2:3 Therefore God BLESSED the seventh-day and made it holy)

5. The Lord's Day -- is Sabbath "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28. This is also the message of Isaiah 58 calling the Sabbath "the Holy Day of the LORD"

6. Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" -- Exegesis demands that we understand that Isaiah meant the real seventh-day Sabbath

7. Christians today honor WEEK-DAY-ONE (sunday) as the day on which Christ was raised -- they are admitting at the same time then that "week-day-seven" is Saturday. The same thing the Jews also claim.

8. Heb 4 states clearly "The REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" today.

9. The Sabbath commandment is referenced in Rev 14 and in Acts. "Wosrhip Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water". Acts 14:15, Rev 14:7 Acts 4:24 (The third commandment is the only one never quoted even in part -- in the NT)

10. Luke 4:16-31 Christ's custom was to attend worship - honor His own creation-memorial. He was a "creationist":type:

11. Acts 13:14,27, 42,44 "Sabbath after Sabbath" both gentiles and jews come together to worship and hear the Gospel. No "join us tomorrow -- don't wait to come back until next Sabbath" message given in Acts 13.

12. Acts 15:21 James argues that the dispute over Jewish Christians thinking that Gentile Christians "must become Jews to be saved" is settled by noting that for all Christians the Bible is available and held in honor for "Moses is preached every Sabbath in the synagogues".

13. The 10 Commandment UNIT of the Law remains James 2:9-13 "he who breaks one is guilty of breaking all". Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment" in the 10-commandment unit "with a promise".

14. Exodus 16:23 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" - the day was known-- the exact day was known and was important. Manna on 6 days -- no manna on 7th day. Friday was called "preparation day" double manna on friday and still known as "preparation day" in Gospels.

15. Ten Commandments - Ten Words on Tablets of stone -- "and he added no more" (never downsized) Deut 5:22, Ex 34:28

16. The NEW Covenant promise: The "Law of God written on the heart" Heb 8:10 - Jer 31:31 quote and exegesis insists that we admit to the context of what Jeremiah meant by "law" it was not "the downsized 9" to Jeremiah. And so Paul confirms in Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God".

17. 1Cor 7:19 circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing - but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God.

18. 1John 2 insists that we remember to Keep His Commandments. In John 14:15 Pre-Cross John also notes that Christ said "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments".

So we are keeping Sabbath through all eternity in New Heavens and the new Earth.

The scope of Christ's Sabbath memorial of HIS creative work in making all life on earth -- is "all mankind" even stated in the OT.

Enjoy your class.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My Sunday school class is reading (we are now on chapter 22) through the book of Matthew and in the 24th chapter it mentions the sabbath. The teacher will give time to discuss points about the sabbath topic. So, I will like to see some of you bring up points of arguements tthat will prove from the bible that the Sabbath is NOT on Sunday and we should still worship on the seventh day.....

I will like the arguements in a 1-2-3-ect. format like this:

Arguement #1: The old testiment tells us to remember the sabbath. What does remember mean to us and why?

2. Why does JESUS tell us to pray that our flight will not be on the sabbath if the sabbath command is not to be obeyed today?

3. Why do we obey 9 of the 10 commandments of GOD as commandments of GOD and we treat the FORTH COMMANDMENT as if it were only a suggestion?

ok. your turn.....

4.

5.

6.

7. and etc.....


I am needing this a.s.a.p.
Thanks for your help.

GE

Sorry to disappoint you, but find those kinds of answers from even Calvin's Cathechism and or the Heidelberg Catechism. But find them expounded extensively and exhaustively in any Jewish apolgetic. But find them to their limits exploited in the SDA literature, books to fill your library ten times -- digested into any single book from the pen of Mrs E.G. White.


May I therefore advise to start with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to end with the Gospel of Jesus Christ to answer your every question on the Sabbath of the LORD your God.


Allow me to summarise the last for you in one sentence, a sentence I borrowed from Juergen Moltmann, "Christian Faith that is not Resurrection-Faith, is neither Christian, nor Faith."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by AAA
My Sunday school class is reading (we are now on chapter 22) through the book of Matthew and in the 24th chapter it mentions the sabbath. The teacher will give time to discuss points about the sabbath topic. So, I will like to see some of you bring up points of arguements tthat will prove from the bible that the Sabbath is NOT on Sunday and we should still worship on the seventh day....."

GE

Dear AAA, You are faced with the challenge and responsibility of your life; God shall never let you go on this one.

Save your life to save the Sabbath, and you shall lose both. Lose your life to save the Sabbath ... if it is worth it to you. Who or what is going to make you decide on that? You decide.

 

[BobRyan]

I would like to hear how the class went -- was any of this information helpful?

Bob

 

[sag38]

Maybe I have the wrong focus but people all around us are dying and going to hell and some would rahter fight and debate to the finish over a particular day. And, while they are fighting amongst themselves, people are slipping into hell. But, those arguing don't care. They are more worried about what day to worship on. That's sad.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If anyone is going to hell no preaching of anybody is going to prevent him. [personal attack deleted] It makes absolutely no difference to the destiny of the lost souls of this world. In the last analysis though, concern for God's Day of rest for the slaves of sin and toil of this world, could have made a big difference.

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe I have the wrong focus but people all around us are dying and going to hell and some would rahter fight and debate to the finish over a particular day. And, while they are fighting amongst themselves, people are slipping into hell. But, those arguing don't care. They are more worried about what day to worship on. That's sad.

The Adventist church has one of the most active world-wide disaster relief programs and world-wide healthcare systems of any Chistian group on the planet AND they also have a strong sense that the Ten Commandments are "legitimate" and in fact "God's".

So far those two things seem to go hand-in-hand for Adventists so I am not sure where you are getting your data.

--- BTW I am still waiting to hear how AAA's class went.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Maybe I have the wrong focus but people all around us are dying and going to hell and some would rahter fight and debate to the finish over a particular day. And, while they are fighting amongst themselves, people are slipping into hell. But, those arguing don't care. They are more worried about what day to worship on. That's sad.

GE

When I get cross, I always get wrong with the wrong people. And it wasn't even the people on this thread who made me cross. So I apologise for my rudeness. I really have a huge battle with my old man Self.
So allow me to recommend, sag38, Mark 2:27-28, The Sabbath was made for man. That was wonderful, was it not! But even more wonderful, The Sabbath was made for the Man, the Son of Man, had it been made for man, is it not? Yea in fact, because that which is for Christ, is with Christ, and that which is with Christ, is with the Father, so that God, WITH the Sabbath Day, is with man, and for man, is working out man's eternal well-being - besides all the temporal good man may enjoy through the Sabbath Day. That must make of the Sabbath Day a day of rejoicing and celebration above anything else - everything good, to the well-being of man.

Perhaps the Commandment for this very reason should be reversed for the Christian, and should it read: Thou shalt do thy utmost work on the Sabbath Day. Well, that's exactly how God applied the Sabbath Commandment to Himself! Should not we also? Of course! What a privilege. Only warning here is, what kind of work? But that for no Christian should be difficult to figure out -- it should be not the works of our own righteousness, but the work for the well-being of people. Remember, God appointed the Seventh Day for this Purpose; it's not for us to override or overrule God's good pleasure. That's also what God meant when He said: "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, because God the Seventh Day from all His Works RESTED" - twice, "The Seventh Day", in the NEW Testament!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It has been said here,
"17. 1Cor 7:19 circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing - but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God."

Like my circumcision should be, and I pray, is, in Jesus Christ; so my keeping the Commandments of God should be, and is, I pray God, in Jesus Christ.

The day it become my keeping the Commandments of God in me or by me or of me, that day I am condemned for sure for ever.

There's NO difference as far as this circumcision and this keeping God's Commandments are concerned!

 

[Darren]

Might I pose this question:

Why is it better to worship or rest on Sunday?

This, to me, is merely an intellectual exersize. If a man fellowshipped with his brethren on Thursday instead of Sunday or Saturday, it wouldn't bother me, maybe it's the only time he has off. Is God not more concerned with the spirit of the law than the letter of the law? Is it not better to worship on a thursday with a committed heart, than go on Sunday because you think you'll be condemned otherwise or you want to look good for the kids?

I wonder, if ever a church were to set it official services on friday, what would some people do? I suppose I'm not talking against anyone here, I think I'm not alone in this particular view, but I would just like to remind everyone, before we get side tracked, that the spirit of worship is more important than which day it's on.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Darren,

It's possible -- in principle and speaking as mere humans. It may have been good -- in principle and speaking as mere individuals.

But is as far from reality as can be. I would not say , 'unfortunately'. Because what is best - always, the best - you as a Christian will have to go the Bible for to find out. I have said it how many times, the Scriptures are either to us the thorn in the flesh, or the comfort, assurance, and confidence in the Faith. The Old Tim religion, it's good enough for me. An even better expression, Jesus loves me because THE BIBLE tells me so.

That's where our 'trouble', begins - it does not stop there! For the faith of Jesus Christ asks of every one to take up a cross - no only the cross of humanitarianism, of goodwill, and so on; but sometime - in fact more often than not - sacrifice for nothing other than "what the Bible says". It is foolishness to the world, which wisdom of the world, to God is foolishness.

We find the will of God revealed in the Scriptures of the Bible, especially in the four Gospels. I cannot think of a single issue we could have had, were it not for the Bible. It would have been much better - if we so could choose - the Church kept to the Roman Catholic point of view, that the Bible is not God's last word, Tradition and the Church are. If you are a Protestant, you will accept the scorn that goes with it.

 

[Samuel Owen]

Its been quite sometime since I have posted on this board,, but I believe you will find your answer to Saturday/Sunday worship here.


Col:2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col:2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col:2:15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col:2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col:2:17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col:2:18: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col:2:19: And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col:2:21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Col:2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col:2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col:2:15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col:2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col:2:17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col:2:18: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col:2:19: And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

This the above, over against this the below:

Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col:2:21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

These are two things contrasted: That you, triumphant in Christ, should not let anyone (of the world) condemn you THEREFORE, That Christ Triumphed, IN: WITH REGARD TO (your) feasting (God's) Sabbaths' Feast". That's the one side, the Triumphant Christian side. This, and because of THIS, OPPOSED to this: "Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col:2:21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?"

One cannot ask for a clearer justification for Christian Sabbaths' celebration indeed!

 

[Samuel Owen]

Now that leaves us but one question, "where does this leave those who insist that all but saturday worship, is contrary to Gods law, and is sin".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now that leaves us but one question, "where does this leave those who insist that all but saturday worship, is contrary to Gods law, and is sin".

GE
I, GE, have no answer, nor wish to answer, nor find the necessity to answer. Besides, it's not the topic. All I know, is God gave man His Sabbath Day for the - eternal - good of him. No wonder Christ claims that Day of God, His, "The Lord (Jesus') Day". Show me the Church of Jesus Christ where not on the Lord's Day ((each to his honest best knowledge)) worship God in spirit and in truth?

 

[Darren]

Gerhard, you're kind of hard to follow.

Let's say I have a family to provide for. But my job requires me to work on sunday. This happens all the time in the real world. The real world is almost never ideal. For the man to simply quite his job, would hurt his family, but to worship on thursday instead, I don't think God will have a problem with that.

I guess to me, it's like the unclean vs. clean foods debate. If your brother in Christ can't bear to eat unclean food, don't eat it in front of him. If he thinks it's wrong to worship on Sunday, and you don't like the emphasis on the old sabbath, then just go to small group services on Wensday together, but don't make an issue of it beyond that.

Now, I would agree, this is somewhat important, and I suppose that sounds like I'm contradicting myself. If God really does require Sunday worship... but I don't think He does. I'll be watching the debate and see because it is something I wonder about. The sabbath WAS important, and still, some day of worship is, but which day? Or is a certain day required anymore?

2 Colossians seems to support my view that one certain day is not of more importance than the others for worship. Sunday is the tradition, as such the ideal. Of course Saturday is set aside in scripture, so it to is ideal. Of course, if you work both, they're not ideal anymore. Me, I'm in the army, I take what I can get. The enemy doesn't rest on Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

Might I pose this question:

Why is it better to worship or rest on Sunday?

This, to me, is merely an intellectual exersize. If a man fellowshipped with his brethren on Thursday instead of Sunday or Saturday, it wouldn't bother me, maybe it's the only time he has off. Is God not more concerned with the spirit of the law than the letter of the law? .

First of all I see people go to church on Wednesday Thursday Saturday Sunday etc. I don't think God ever said there is a "wrong day to go to church and worship".

But if we value exegesis and the meaning of scripture -- then read the Exodus 20:8-11 Law as God gave (recall that in Exodus 16 God said "tomorrow is the Sabbath") -- and consider this -- does the text indicate that He was not specific or did not care whose 7th day got picked?

What about Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" -- given the context for sabbath in Gen 2:3 does scripture "show us" that God is saying "I don't care if you honor my 7th day or not -- just pick your own"??

How do you read "the text" aside from whatever preferences we might have?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Gerhard, you're kind of hard to follow.

In sooo many ways.:laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Its been quite sometime since I have posted on this board,, but I believe you will find your answer to Saturday/Sunday worship here.


Col:2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col:2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col:2:15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col:2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col:2:17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col:2:18: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col:2:19: And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col:2:21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Paul contrasts the shadow-Sabbaths of Lev 23 (annual feast days) that predict the sufferings of Christ -- with their fulfillment. But this says nothing about the past-tense memorial of creation being "ended" nor even that it was a "commandment of men" since in fact it is spoken directly by God Himself in Exodus 20.

In Col 2:14 our "cerificate of debt" is "nailed to the Cross" (NASB) this is our debt of sin... it is not the Word of God nailed to the cross. It is not the Law of God "nailed to the Cross".

in Fact as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the law of God".

And so in Heb 8 we find that the "Law written on the heart" is central to the New Covenant Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob