Saints Praying for Us?

How about this:

Hermas


"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria


"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen


"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

 

Correct it began to be reconized as a dogma by the Church in the 4th Century. 330 roughly.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]#1. There is no mention here of "Saints praying for us"

#2. There is no statement here that WE who are alive are not "the saints" who are praying.

#3. Therer is no mention here of saints "praying to the dead"

To the contrary - in the Bible we are told that the saints are those ON earth that Paul and John are writing TO - who are READING the Bible in the various local churches.

The superstitious ideas about "The saints being dead people" comes from the dark ages. Surely the term may "include" those who are called by Paul "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 and we should not "MOURN" or "WEEP" over their loss as though they will never be restored. (Read the chapter for details) - but that is a far cry from the dark ages view of "praying to the dead" and calling that dark-ages idea communion with saints.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

"SAints" as in "dead people"??? Those that Paul calls "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4?? Is that what you mean by "saints"??

If so - then you are correct - it started in the dark ages!

 

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

..

 

</font>[/QUOTE]#1. There is no mention here of "Saints praying for us"

#2. There is no statement here that WE who are alive are not "the saints" who are praying.

#3. Therer is no mention here of saints "praying to the dead"

To the contrary - in the Bible we are told that the saints are those ON earth that Paul and John are writing TO - who are READING the Bible in the various local churches.

The superstitious ideas about "The saints being dead people" comes from the dark ages. Surely the term may "include" those who are called by Paul "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 and we should not "MOURN" or "WEEP" over their loss as though they will never be restored. (Read the chapter for details) - but that is a far cry from the dark ages view of "praying to the dead" and calling that dark-ages idea communion with saints.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

"SAints" as in "dead people"??? Those that Paul calls "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4?? Is that what you mean by "saints"??

If so - then you are correct - it started in the dark ages! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not talking about dead people, I'm talking about live people in heaven.

 

"SAints" as in "dead people"??? Those that Paul calls "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4?? Is that what you mean by "saints"??

So not those that Paul mentiones in 1Thess 4 (you know ALL the dead in Christ FROM ALL of TIME!! Raised at the 2nd coming!!).

Indeed - what spirits are you speaking of if not them??

Oh wait - let me guess! evil spirits??

OK I grant you that those who pray to spirits don't knowingly think they are praying to evil spirits.

Here is an interesting link on that point - check it out.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob

 

don't you believe the dead in Christ are alive in heaven, or do you believe in soul sleep?

 

His profile says he's a Seventh-Day Adventist. They believe in soul sleep.

 

I can find evidence in scripture for NOT praying to the dead as the RCC does

But the RCC tells its followers to pray to the "DEAD IN CHRIST" calling them the "alive in Christ" instead of what Paul calls them in 1Thess 4... Does that bit of bible-wrenching solve the problem for them?

 

I believe that the "DEAD in Christ" is the proper way to refer to the saints that have died.

I believe that when we see the reference in Isaiah 8 to "the DEAD" and when we see Paul mention that the saints of all ages who have died are ALSO included in that term "THE DEAD" even if it is "The DEAD in Christ" -- we can trust the Word of God !!

Why consult the DEAD on behalf of the living?!!

Why adopt the "problem" that the RCC says (in this link) that they have with this idea of trying to figure out which of the dead you should consult --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob

 

Does the "dead in Christ" mean those that have died in Christ or those that are still dead in christ?

Are the dead in Christ still dead? Are they alive now that they died in Christ?

 

Those are all good questions. In this case they are all answered by a direct and obvious reading of the text we are referencing.

#1. The Bible is trustworthy.

#2. It is readible - and even understandible.

#3. In many cases the meaning is so obvious and clear you have to "try to miss it" to eisegete some false meaning into it.

Now let's see how that holds up with 1Thess 4 and the very good list of questions you have asked.

#1. It is very clear that Paul is addressing the problem of real Christians, really living as contemporaries with Paul that really had real friends and those real friends really died.

So far -- pretty obvious.

#2. It is also clear that he is looking forward to the coming of Christ and he states that at Christ's coming there will be a resurrection of the righteous -- the "dead in Christ". He makes the case that this is when we will be reunited with those whom we have lost in death.

#3. He states that the living saints should "Comfort one another" with these words regarding the "Dead in Christ" and the fact that they are "raised first" so that we do not preceed THEM into heaven.

Obviously Paul's solution to the problem they face - the problem of their loved ones having died before the coming of Christ - is that they should not weep as those who have no hope. They should look at the Gospel solution - the resurrection of the "Dead in Christ" that happens at the coming of the Lord.

IF Paul had said "Your loved ones USED to be the dead in Christ but they are no longer the dead in Christ" THEN saying that at the coming of Christ "the DEAD in Christ will rise first AND THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM in the AIR" would say nothing about the departed loved one - for they would NOT be "Those who are alive on earth and rmain" NOR would they be in the group "the DEAD in Christ"... it would be a tragic situation at best.

Fortunately Paul makes no such statement about their departed loved ones "ceasing to be the Dead in Christ at some point before the return of Christ"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The good news is that these RCC sources are being up front with the risk involved with accepting RC doctrine. IN this case - the pagans praying to their family gods - praying to dead ancestors etc is eventually transitioned to the RC idea of praying to "The DEAD in Christ" -- dead saints.

When those prayers are said - BOTH groups consider the spirit they are praying to - to be every bit alive and awake as the other. The Pagans do no think of their dead ancestors as not awake - not hearing, not listening, not able to help. And neither does the RCC consider that the "Dead in Christ" are any less "awake" than do the pagans suppose for their contact with their own dead.

The RC source admitted that the People of God - the one true Church of God started at Sinai had the mission of wiping out such pagan practices so they never had the problem of "consulting with the dead" and trying to distinguis that from other prayers or trying to distinguish the good dead from the pagan dead.

God has warned us away from such practices in IS 8:19 as I already pointed out. But what "if" we simply ignore what He says and pray to the DEAD anyway. (Hopefully just trying to pray to the DEAD in Christ if possible). By ignoring what God said - do we invite the error of praying to evil spirits?

That is the huge problem with this idea of dumping what God said in favor of man made tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

By the way the "RC source" is just a magazine. It is not a good source of Catholic doctrine.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Do they pray for us? OK. I'll buy that.

But the big question isn't "do they pray for us", but "should we pray to them to pray for us".

 

That is great "Catholic Digest is not a good source" for Catholic views on a given topic.

When "Catholics turn on their own" you know they have something to hide!

BTW - The Catholic Historian Bokenkotter ALSO agrees with Fr Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest on this point.

(Just one more Catholic to "turn against" if you don't like RC sources being too honest).

Check it out --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob

 

Do they pray for us? OK. I'll buy that.

But the big question isn't "do they pray for us", but "should we pray to them to pray for us". </font>[/QUOTE]Actually Rev 8 does not say that the dead are praying for us. It says that the prayers of the saints are ascending up TO GOD - but it does not say that they are "dead at the time" or that they are "dead and praying for the living".

All the arguments of the RCC are missing from Rev 8.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Then let me ask you this what are they praying for? Would it not make sense that they are praying for fellow Christians or the Church... The only other thing that makes sense to me is that they would be worshipping God but it doesn't really say their praise but rather prayers. In the rest of the book of Revelation is always tells us when angels,beasts, and saints are praising God.
In Christ,
Nate

 

The NT repeatedly points to living people ON earth as "The Saints" - those saints are praying on earth - TO GOD -- directly. (Not through a priest and not through the Pope, and not through the "Dead in Christ").

Paul never presents the "DEAD in Christ" as praying FOR us but more specifically he never says "WE should pray TO the DEAD in Christ".

Rev 8 makes no mention of the saints "having died" and makes no mention of the saints "being prayed to".

The fact that today - SAINTS pray and - does endorse the idea that anyone else "prays to SAINTS".

The RCC FORBIDS praying to a saint that is ALIVE! They must be dead according to the RCC!

If you try to pray to your cousin in New Jersey the RCC itself will condemn the practice!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is great "Catholic Digest is not a good source" for Catholic views on a given topic.

When "Catholics turn on their own" you know they have something to hide!

BTW - The Catholic Historian Bokenkotter ALSO agrees with Fr Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest on this point.

(Just one more Catholic to "turn against" if you don't like RC sources being too honest).

Check it out --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]My point was simply that they are not a good source for Catholic belief. In any faith some people will disagree with that faiths teachings.