Saints Praying for Us?

[DanC]

How about this:

Hermas


"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria


"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen


"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

 

[nate]

Originally posted by DanC:
Surely asking saints to pray for us didn't start in the dark ages.

Correct it began to be reconized as a dogma by the Church in the 4th Century. 330 roughly.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeclareHim:
What about Saints praying for us? What about us being able to pray(request) that they intercede for us on our behalf before God? Those who tend to believe this: RCC, EOC, believe these verses in Revelation 8:3-4 is speaking of how Saints are praying for us.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. ESV

[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]#1. There is no mention here of "Saints praying for us"

#2. There is no statement here that WE who are alive are not "the saints" who are praying.

#3. Therer is no mention here of saints "praying to the dead"

To the contrary - in the Bible we are told that the saints are those ON earth that Paul and John are writing TO - who are READING the Bible in the various local churches.

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:


Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

The superstitious ideas about "The saints being dead people" comes from the dark ages. Surely the term may "include" those who are called by Paul "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 and we should not "MOURN" or "WEEP" over their loss as though they will never be restored. (Read the chapter for details) - but that is a far cry from the dark ages view of "praying to the dead" and calling that dark-ages idea communion with saints.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by DanC:

Surely asking saints to pray for us didn't start in the dark ages. [/QB]

"SAints" as in "dead people"??? Those that Paul calls "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4?? Is that what you mean by "saints"??

If so - then you are correct - it started in the dark ages!

 

[BobRyan]

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

..

 

[DanC]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeclareHim:
What about Saints praying for us? What about us being able to pray(request) that they intercede for us on our behalf before God? Those who tend to believe this: RCC, EOC, believe these verses in Revelation 8:3-4 is speaking of how Saints are praying for us.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. ESV

</font>[/QUOTE]#1. There is no mention here of "Saints praying for us"

#2. There is no statement here that WE who are alive are not "the saints" who are praying.

#3. Therer is no mention here of saints "praying to the dead"

To the contrary - in the Bible we are told that the saints are those ON earth that Paul and John are writing TO - who are READING the Bible in the various local churches.

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:


Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

The superstitious ideas about "The saints being dead people" comes from the dark ages. Surely the term may "include" those who are called by Paul "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 and we should not "MOURN" or "WEEP" over their loss as though they will never be restored. (Read the chapter for details) - but that is a far cry from the dark ages view of "praying to the dead" and calling that dark-ages idea communion with saints.

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by DanC:

Surely asking saints to pray for us didn't start in the dark ages. [/QB]

"SAints" as in "dead people"??? Those that Paul calls "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4?? Is that what you mean by "saints"??

If so - then you are correct - it started in the dark ages! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not talking about dead people, I'm talking about live people in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

"SAints" as in "dead people"??? Those that Paul calls "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4?? Is that what you mean by "saints"??

I'm not talking about dead people, I'm talking about live people in heaven.

So not those that Paul mentiones in 1Thess 4 (you know ALL the dead in Christ FROM ALL of TIME!! Raised at the 2nd coming!!).

Indeed - what spirits are you speaking of if not them??

Oh wait - let me guess! evil spirits??

OK I grant you that those who pray to spirits don't knowingly think they are praying to evil spirits.

Here is an interesting link on that point - check it out.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DanC]

don't you believe the dead in Christ are alive in heaven, or do you believe in soul sleep?

 

[JFox1]

His profile says he's a Seventh-Day Adventist. They believe in soul sleep.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by nate:
I still can't find any evidence in Scripture that supports requesting saints in heaven pray for us.

I can find evidence in scripture for NOT praying to the dead as the RCC does

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

But the RCC tells its followers to pray to the "DEAD IN CHRIST" calling them the "alive in Christ" instead of what Paul calls them in 1Thess 4... Does that bit of bible-wrenching solve the problem for them?

1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DanC:
don't you believe the dead in Christ are alive in heaven, or do you believe in soul sleep?

I believe that the "DEAD in Christ" is the proper way to refer to the saints that have died.

I believe that when we see the reference in Isaiah 8 to "the DEAD" and when we see Paul mention that the saints of all ages who have died are ALSO included in that term "THE DEAD" even if it is "The DEAD in Christ" -- we can trust the Word of God !!

Why consult the DEAD on behalf of the living?!!

Why adopt the "problem" that the RCC says (in this link) that they have with this idea of trying to figure out which of the dead you should consult --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DanC]

Does the "dead in Christ" mean those that have died in Christ or those that are still dead in christ?

Are the dead in Christ still dead? Are they alive now that they died in Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

Those are all good questions. In this case they are all answered by a direct and obvious reading of the text we are referencing.

#1. The Bible is trustworthy.

#2. It is readible - and even understandible.

#3. In many cases the meaning is so obvious and clear you have to "try to miss it" to eisegete some false meaning into it.

Now let's see how that holds up with 1Thess 4 and the very good list of questions you have asked.

1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

#1. It is very clear that Paul is addressing the problem of real Christians, really living as contemporaries with Paul that really had real friends and those real friends really died.

So far -- pretty obvious.

#2. It is also clear that he is looking forward to the coming of Christ and he states that at Christ's coming there will be a resurrection of the righteous -- the "dead in Christ". He makes the case that this is when we will be reunited with those whom we have lost in death.

#3. He states that the living saints should "Comfort one another" with these words regarding the "Dead in Christ" and the fact that they are "raised first" so that we do not preceed THEM into heaven.

Obviously Paul's solution to the problem they face - the problem of their loved ones having died before the coming of Christ - is that they should not weep as those who have no hope. They should look at the Gospel solution - the resurrection of the "Dead in Christ" that happens at the coming of the Lord.

IF Paul had said "Your loved ones USED to be the dead in Christ but they are no longer the dead in Christ" THEN saying that at the coming of Christ "the DEAD in Christ will rise first AND THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM in the AIR" would say nothing about the departed loved one - for they would NOT be "Those who are alive on earth and rmain" NOR would they be in the group "the DEAD in Christ"... it would be a tragic situation at best.

Fortunately Paul makes no such statement about their departed loved ones "ceasing to be the Dead in Christ at some point before the return of Christ"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The good news is that these RCC sources are being up front with the risk involved with accepting RC doctrine. IN this case - the pagans praying to their family gods - praying to dead ancestors etc is eventually transitioned to the RC idea of praying to "The DEAD in Christ" -- dead saints.

When those prayers are said - BOTH groups consider the spirit they are praying to - to be every bit alive and awake as the other. The Pagans do no think of their dead ancestors as not awake - not hearing, not listening, not able to help. And neither does the RCC consider that the "Dead in Christ" are any less "awake" than do the pagans suppose for their contact with their own dead.

The RC source admitted that the People of God - the one true Church of God started at Sinai had the mission of wiping out such pagan practices so they never had the problem of "consulting with the dead" and trying to distinguis that from other prayers or trying to distinguish the good dead from the pagan dead.

God has warned us away from such practices in IS 8:19 as I already pointed out. But what "if" we simply ignore what He says and pray to the DEAD anyway. (Hopefully just trying to pray to the DEAD in Christ if possible). By ignoring what God said - do we invite the error of praying to evil spirits?

That is the huge problem with this idea of dumping what God said in favor of man made tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DanC]

By the way the "RC source" is just a magazine. It is not a good source of Catholic doctrine.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by DeclareHim:
What about Saints praying for us? What about us being able to pray(request) that they intercede for us on our behalf before God? Those who tend to believe this: RCC, EOC, believe these verses in Revelation 8:3-4 is speaking of how Saints are praying for us.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. ESV

</font>[/QUOTE]Do they pray for us? OK. I'll buy that.

But the big question isn't "do they pray for us", but "should we pray to them to pray for us".

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DanC:
By the way the "RC source" is just a magazine. It is not a good source of Catholic doctrine.

That is great "Catholic Digest is not a good source" for Catholic views on a given topic.

When "Catholics turn on their own" you know they have something to hide!

BTW - The Catholic Historian Bokenkotter ALSO agrees with Fr Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest on this point.

(Just one more Catholic to "turn against" if you don't like RC sources being too honest).

Check it out --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Mike McK:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. ESV [/qb]

Do they pray for us? OK. I'll buy that.

But the big question isn't "do they pray for us", but "should we pray to them to pray for us". </font>[/QUOTE]Actually Rev 8 does not say that the dead are praying for us. It says that the prayers of the saints are ascending up TO GOD - but it does not say that they are "dead at the time" or that they are "dead and praying for the living".

All the arguments of the RCC are missing from Rev 8.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[nate]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Actually Rev 8 does not say that the dead are praying for us. It says that the prayers of the saints are ascending up TO GOD - but it does not say that they are "dead at the time" or that they are "dead and praying for the living".

All the arguments of the RCC are missing from Rev 8.

Then let me ask you this what are they praying for? Would it not make sense that they are praying for fellow Christians or the Church... The only other thing that makes sense to me is that they would be worshipping God but it doesn't really say their praise but rather prayers. In the rest of the book of Revelation is always tells us when angels,beasts, and saints are praising God.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[BobRyan]

The NT repeatedly points to living people ON earth as "The Saints" - those saints are praying on earth - TO GOD -- directly. (Not through a priest and not through the Pope, and not through the "Dead in Christ").

Paul never presents the "DEAD in Christ" as praying FOR us but more specifically he never says "WE should pray TO the DEAD in Christ".

Rev 8 makes no mention of the saints "having died" and makes no mention of the saints "being prayed to".

The fact that today - SAINTS pray and - does endorse the idea that anyone else "prays to SAINTS".

The RCC FORBIDS praying to a saint that is ALIVE! They must be dead according to the RCC!

If you try to pray to your cousin in New Jersey the RCC itself will condemn the practice!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DanC]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DanC:
By the way the "RC source" is just a magazine. It is not a good source of Catholic doctrine.

That is great "Catholic Digest is not a good source" for Catholic views on a given topic.

When "Catholics turn on their own" you know they have something to hide!

BTW - The Catholic Historian Bokenkotter ALSO agrees with Fr Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest on this point.

(Just one more Catholic to "turn against" if you don't like RC sources being too honest).

Check it out --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3758/2.html#000023

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]My point was simply that they are not a good source for Catholic belief. In any faith some people will disagree with that faiths teachings.