Salary figure for a pastor

[PamelaK]

Texas,
From what I have heard in a couple churches we have been members of, putting the Pastor's housing allowance into a separate category has certain tax advantages for him. At least that was my understanding, although I didn't understand the particulars. I'm sure someone else here can explain it and corect me if I'm wrong.

 

[Convicted by the Spirit]

I know that the Pastor of Lakewood church, Joel Osteen, does not take a salary, but gives the entire salary back to the church. I think I saw it was about 200,000 per year ... don't quote me on that. Also he still drives his father's car from like 10 years ago. His books and CD sales are enough to support his family.

 

[Bunyon]

"His books and CD sales are enough to support his family"---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His books and cd's that sell because of his exposure in his churches tv ministry earn him way more than his sallery was, way more. It was the least he could do.

 

[untangled]

I make enough to make ends meat. It is my first church and I am very blessed to have my small congregation provide for me like they do. I get a decent weekly salary and have a parsonage (utilities not included). Of course, my congregation is only 50 members so I believe they are very generous and thank God that HE allows me to serve full-time. I can't imagine doing it part time because I stay busy on sermons, events and shut-ins, planning too.

In Christ,

Brooks

 

[Pastor Larry]

none. no salary. he should work to support his family like everybody else.

You have a very distorted view of ministry if you think the pastor doesn't "work ... like everybody else." The ministry is work, far more work than most people do at their jobs. The idea that the pastor should not get a salary is unbiblical. The Bible cleraly teaches he should in passages like 1 Tim 5 and 1 Cor 9 where he is compared with those who "work to support their family like everybody else."

 

[dh1948]

The pastor's compensation can be a confusing thing to some people in the congregation. The IRS considers the pastor to be self-employed for Social Security purposes and an employee for income tax purposes.

On the social security side, he has to pay double the ss rate of an employee, and he has to pay that on his salary and whatever is designated for housing. If part of his compensation is designated for social security off-set, it should not be considered part of his "salary." Do you count the half of your ss taxes your employer pays for you as part of your salary? No.

The transportation reimbursement (or church-owned vehicle used for ministry purposes) should not be considered as income for the pastor. He has to have a vehicle in order to carry out his required responsibilities in the church's ministry. If you worked for a company that required that you travel in order to do your job, would you consider a reimbursement on your incurred expenses (or a company owned vehicle), as part of your income? No

Health insurance cost provided by the church is definitely a benefit for the pastor. When you go to the bank and apply for a loan, do you report the cost of your company-provided health care insurance as part of your income? No.

If your company requires you to attend a training conference, does it pay your expenses? Yes. Do you report those expenses as income? No

In each of the above situations, why should a pastor be treated any differently??

 

[TexasSky]

I have to agree with Larry that saying a Pastor doesn't work like everyone else is very misguided.

I've had two Pastors that worked so hard their doctors begged them to retire. My current Pastor seemes to be headed in that same direction. They more they do, the more need they see, the more need they see, the more they do.

I know a few Pastors who aren't paid enough to make ends meet. I don't know any missionaries who are paid enough to make ends meet.

My concern in the cases of the Pastor I mentioned above is that with the salary, house and car that he received he made a much higher income than the average citizen. Above average income makes the ministry attractive to secular people for secular reasons, and they are certainly not above trying to con congregations - we've seen the affects of false teachers in ever denomination. The more we pay, the more likely false teachers are going to find the idea of "preaching" appealing.

I want these men of God to be paid for the hard work they do, but I don't want them "over paid" because I don't want to attract ungodly men due to the salary.

 

[El_Guero]

Above average income makes the ministry attractive to secular people for secular reasons, and they are certainly not above trying to con congregations - we've seen the affects of false teachers in ever denomination. The more we pay, the more likely false teachers are going to find the idea of "preaching" appealing.

I want these men of God to be paid for the hard work they do, but I don't want them "over paid" because I don't want to attract ungodly men due to the salary.

I agree and I disagree ...

 

[El_Guero]

Tex

Yes, false teachers come in because that CANNOT WORK A REAL JOB.

But, no ... I do not think we should pay pastors less because WE, THE CHURCH BODY, hire men that are not called by God ...

We need to fix the root of the problem. SIN (rebellion) leads us to hire men that God does not let into His presence ... We need to SEEK GOD and His goldy leaders.

 

[TexasSky]

You have a valid point El Guero.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />none. no salary. he should work to support his family like everybody else.

You have a very distorted view of ministry if you think the pastor doesn't "work ... like everybody else." The ministry is work, far more work than most people do at their jobs. The idea that the pastor should not get a salary is unbiblical. The Bible cleraly teaches he should in passages like 1 Tim 5 and 1 Cor 9 where he is compared with those who "work to support their family like everybody else." </font>[/QUOTE]Amen!

When I was pastoring, I found it to be a 70 hour/week job. I know, however, a pastor of a Baptist church of about 30 people who is drawing a salary of $60,000 a year and he spends less than 10 hours a week doing his job. He is, in reality, a fat, lazy slob! In my opinion, that particular pastor is stealing from his congregation!

Being a good pastor is a VERY demanding job that leaves precious little time for anything that is not absolutely essential. Every hour that a pastor spends working at a secular job is one less hour that he has to serve his congregation.

And pastors of affluent congregations on the west or east coast of the United States find it necessary to live in extremely expensive homes, drive very expensive automobiles, wear very expensive clothing, frequently eat out in very expensive places, etc.

And not only that, very well educated pastors often have an enormous debt to pay off from student loans. And well educated pastors often feel the need to build a pastor’s library of thousands of volumes, and highly academic books from academic publishers are VERY expensive.

 

[blackbird]

For a church my size---in the area of the state that I'm in---and given the average means of incomes of family members here at church---I've got to say----I don't make bad "doughnuts" myself!

But its just average "Cowboy" wages---nothin' extravagant---

I don't go overboard on elaboration and elation of income----

I don't drive a "Caddy" or a Lexus---I drive a Chevrolet Astro '94 model that's paid for and a Chevy Silverado thats about half paid for-

--I ain't a member of the Country Club nor the health club----

I don't have a skiboat nor a fishin' boat---when I do go fishin'---I fish from the bank with a cheap spinning reel and rod----

I ain't suave nor cool---sometimes I work those 70 hour weeks like Craigbysea mentioned---sometimes I work those 100 hour weeks like that he didn't mention---sometimes I work a regular 40----

sometimes I'm busy---sometimes I'm not!!

I get paid good and have never griped about it!!

I never have thought that I "deserved" a raise---but I won't turn one down!!!

I'm just an average preacher who believes he can "stay in the pulpit" with any other preacher no matter how educated and suave and polished he is-----

sometimes when I get around a bunch of preachers in a preaching conference---I feel like a mule at the Kentucky Derby----I know I'll never win the race---but then again at the same time at least I know I'm runnin' with the "Big Boys!"

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />none. no salary. he should work to support his family like everybody else.

You have a very distorted view of ministry if you think the pastor doesn't "work ... like everybody else." The ministry is work, far more work than most people do at their jobs. The idea that the pastor should not get a salary is unbiblical. The Bible cleraly teaches he should in passages like 1 Tim 5 and 1 Cor 9 where he is compared with those who "work to support their family like everybody else." </font>[/QUOTE]And you are reading into Scripture what it does not say. Where is the salary in 1 Timothy 5:17-18 ? And where do any of what I said contradict these Scriptures ? "And the labourer is worthy of his reward" does not necessarily mean give the pastor a fixed amount every Sunday, or every fortnight.

Neither does the Scripture that says "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn".

Tell you what, Larry, instead of being miffed that your means of income is under scrutiny by an Old Baptist preacher who is uneducated by your standards, not having graduated from Bible College with the doctorate you probably have,, why don't you show in Scripture the pattern set for paying a fixed salary to a pastor ? Did Paul teach that ?

Sure, the Scriptures say in essence to support the elders that rule well, and I have no quarrel with that, but where is the 'fixed' support ?

As somebody here said, a fixed salary makes the pastor the employee of the church, no matter which way you cut it.

Not even the Levites of the Old Testament received fixed salaries from the congregation of Israel.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Here is 1 Corinthians 9:1-14. and I challenge any who teach that this scripture teaches that the pastor should have a fixed salary, to prove it from these Scriptures.
On the other hand, these Scripture bears out what I am saying.
The preacher of the gospel deserves more than a fixed amount, just as God deserves more than a tithe.
The fact is that many Baptist churches have become business entities disguised as churches.
They run the preaching of the gospel like one would run a marketing strategy, with Jesus Christ and salvation as the commodities, and the number of souls won as the gauge for the effectiveness of the marketing strategies.
So with how their pastors are paid.

1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, 4 Have we not power to eat and to drink? 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, F26 as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? 7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live F27 of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
You have a valid point El Guero.

Thanks!

One a month keeps me on track for a record!

 

[Pastor Larry]

And you are reading into Scripture what it does not say. Where is the salary in 1 Timothy 5:17-18 ?

Most agree that "double honor" is financial. If you disagree then fine. 1 Cor 9 makes it clear that it is financial. If you disagree, then not fine.

And where do any of what I said contradict these Scriptures ?

1 Cor 9 says that the pastor is to be paid.

"And the labourer is worthy of his reward" does not necessarily mean give the pastor a fixed amount every Sunday, or every fortnight.

"Hire" certainly seems to be a regular steady commitment.

Neither does the Scripture that says "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn".

This is perhaps the most clear. The ox survived by eating the grain which he was employed to work.

Tell you what, Larry, instead of being miffed

I am not miffed at all.

why don't you show in Scripture the pattern set for paying a fixed salary to a pastor ? Did Paul teach that ?

Paul taught that the pastor was to be paid because it was his livelihood. You can't really legitmately rewrite that to mean if we have a little left over we will pay you.

As somebody here said, a fixed salary makes the pastor the employee of the church, no matter which way you cut it.

Yes it does. No problem there. That is how God set it up.

 

[El_Guero]

That we, as a profession, encourage men that are not called into ministry has greatly lessened our perceived value.

Why should congregations pay God's worth to a man who can easily be outsourced by someone that cannot speak God's Word ...

 

[TexasSky]

pinoybaptist,

If the members of the church did their jobs - Pastors might not NEED to be paid for 40 plus hour work weeks, and they might be able to hold outside jobs, however, the fact is, congregations - in a general sense, dump a HUGE load on their pastors and expect the Pastor to handle it.

They are pre-marital counselors, and marital counselors. They are spiritual guides. They are teachers. They are comforters during times of illness and during times of grief. They are expected to have answers to questions that no other man on earth is expected to have the answer to.

If someone wants to do a mission project, they want the pastor there "to set an example". Need a new Sunday School Teacher? Call on the pastor. Building a house for a senior citizen? Just let the Pastor NOT show up and see who screams.

Study, pray, pray and study.

When do they have time to do anything else?

Why SHOULD they do anything else? Their focus is on Christ, not wordly income. Why would we want the world dictating to them?

 

[Paul33]

The Levites collected 100% of the tithe, forwarded 10% on to Jerusalem, and managed the other 90% however they saw fit.

Let's see the local church do that!

The pastor collects 100% of the tithes, forwards 10% on to denominational headquarters/missions, and manages the other 90% however he sees fit!

Praise the Lord!

 

[ccrobinson]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Here is 1 Corinthians 9:1-14. and I challenge any who teach that this scripture teaches that the pastor should have a fixed salary, to prove it from these Scriptures.
On the other hand, these Scripture bears out what I am saying. The preacher of the gospel deserves more than a fixed amount, just as God deserves more than a tithe. The fact is that many Baptist churches have become business entities disguised as churches. They run the preaching of the gospel like one would run a marketing strategy, with Jesus Christ and salvation as the commodities, and the number of souls won as the gauge for the effectiveness of the marketing strategies. So with how their pastors are paid.

Ok, so you don't think pastors should get a fixed salary. I find no direct Biblical teaching on this to dispute you and I'm not going to debate that point. However, what's your alternative? Do you have an alternative that actually works in this real, imperfect world? Do you have an alternative that lets the church manage its finances in a responsible way? All I've seen so far are rants against the church but no practical ways to fix what you see as a problem.

pinoybaptist wrote:

he should work to support his family like everybody else

You say this is as if pastors don't work. We have 4 men on our pastoral staff and they all work very hard and they all work in excess of 40-50 hours every week. They work just as hard as anybody else.

Like it or not, there is an element of running a business in the church. Things like heat, a/c, water, supplies for ministry have to be paid for and managing church finances does dictate that sound, disciplined business practices be involved. This includes managing a budget and if you don't have a set salary for the pastors, then how do you manage a budget in a disciplined manner?

I may be the only one, but I'm willing to concede the point that the Bible doesn't teach that a pastor should get a fixed salary. I find nothing unbiblical about the practice of paying the pastor a fixed salary.