Salvation and sin

[tinytim]

Is that your wife? I thought it was your daughter!!!! lol

 

[Brother Bob]

Is that your wife? I thought it was your daughter!!!! lol

I will tell her, that will make her feel good. Thanks,

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Hey BBob, :wavey:

I agree, that is why you can't walk after the flesh. If you do you shall die and that is not the natural death either.

That is very sad -- to say that eternal life is not eternal, Bob. To say we can be born again and then die again. Dr Rogers had a saying there too -- "Live twice, die once; live once, die twice." I must say again that I think your sotierology needs a little "review."

I have no idea what you are saying here. I judge no one of eternal life, God does.

I was assuming (IBYP) that what you believe comes out in your behavior. I would indeed like to see how you manage to believe others have lost their salvation and not show it.

As far as being kept by the power of God, that is scripture. You can take it or leave it.

I have a 3rd option -- "or you can UNDERSTAND it and how it works." It is one thing to state something as "fact," quite another to be able to tell how it works.

You know, today's saints are kinda like the Bereans. They ask questions like "how." They don't accept much "My way or the highway." You preach to an exceptional crowd -- or an intimidated one -- if they don't ask you about this.

He said my Grace is sufficient for thee. He also said, I shall never leave you and I guarantee you that he will not go with you to committ incest.

OK, let's see if you are right. How long did God occupy the temple while His people lived in sin? Would you grant that He didn't "move out" until Ezekiel's time? The fact emerges that you can give me YOUR guarantee but not God's.

You need to consider what Paul said.

1Cr 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now, if you don't do what Paul said and keep your body under subjection by the help of our good Lord, then you yourself are a castaway, according to scripture.

"Castaway." Good word. What do YOU think it means?

Here's what I think -- a castaway is one who is no longer useable, discredited. This is something that occurs when we have lost our integrity by doing or teaching what is NOT godly. Hymeneaus taught something that made others's faiths "shipwreck" and Paul turned him over to Satan. That would likely be "castaway," wouldn't you think? But was Hymenaeus LOST? Are "castaways" LOST? My Bible says that they are saved "so as by fire."

Yes, 1Cor 9:27 is the GOAL of of sanctification -- do you think many born again believers know this? Are you judging them by what you think they should know?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey BBob, :wavey:

That is very sad -- to say that eternal life is not eternal, Bob. To say we can be born again and then die again. Dr Rogers had a saying there too -- "Live twice, die once; live once, die twice." I must say again that I think your sotierology needs a little "review."

You lack understanding, I gave you scripture if you walk after the flesh you shall die, and you come up with I am saying that eternal life is not eternal, how gross. If you walk after the flesh, you don't have eternal life. God seeks such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

I was assuming (IBYP) that what you believe comes out in your behavior. I would indeed like to see how you manage to believe others have lost their salvation and not show it.

I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation, again a gross misunderstanding, or just being naive.

I have a 3rd option -- "or you can UNDERSTAND it and how it works." It is one thing to state something as "fact," quite another to be able to tell how it works.

OK, let's see if you are right. How long did God occupy the temple while His people lived in sin? Would you grant that He didn't "move out" until Ezekiel's time? The fact emerges that you can give me YOUR guarantee but not God's.

"Castaway." Good word. What do YOU think it means?

hypocrit, like the Governor in New York, only you would be doing it against God.

Here's what I think -- a castaway is one who is no longer useable, discredited. This is something that occurs when we have lost our integrity by doing or teaching what is NOT godly. Hymeneaus taught something that make others's faiths "shipwreck" and Paul turned him over to Satan. That would likely be castaway," don't you think? But was Hymenaeus LOST? Are "castaways" LOST? My Bible says that they are saved "so as by fire."

If they are saved, then they don't become castaways. Paul does not give enough about Hymenaeus for me to say what they were. You say they taught something that makes other's faith shipwreck. Scripture don't say that, so I don't know and doubt if you do.

Yes, 1Cor 9:27 is the GOAL of of sanctification -- do you think many born again believers know this? Are you judging them by what you think they should know?

Before I came you had a clok for your sins. I trust in God and the Spirit to give them understanding. There is a Spirit in man that giveth him understanding. God can take care of His own work.

skypair

Rom 8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

If you are being led by the flesh, instead of the Spirit of God, well you can see what the scripture says about it.

If you can't keep your body under subjection and commit incest, you don't have Christ.

............

 

[skypair]

BBob,

Please revisit my earlier post. I changed up some of my comments not knowing you would be on line.

If you walk after the flesh, you don't have eternal life.

O, contrare' Pierre! Read Rom 7 where Paul said that he did things in his flesh that his spirit would not will! All you are doing with that remark is UNSAVING Paul!!

I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation, again a gross misunderstanding, or just being naive.

See, this is just the issue, isn't it. You would treat all who haven't met your standard of behavior (supposedly based on your understanding of the Bible) as if they were LOST. Do you give ANY thought to accepting one's profession over his/her behavior as you think they should act?

Bob, I'm getting that "not invented here" impression regarding your theology. If you don't know it, it ain't so. That can be very detrimental not only personally but in ministry. Please tell me "it ain't so."

skypair

 

[DHK]

I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation, again a gross misunderstanding, or just being naive.

I beg to differ. Your arguments are no different than the Church of Christ poster that I debated about a year ago in the Other Denominations Forum. My testimony is that I was saved when I was 20 through the ministry of an on-campus Interdenominational organization. They never taught about the importance of the local church or about baptism. I did not become baptized until two years later, when the Lord led me to an IFB church.

According to this COC poster, during the time that I professed Christ as Saviour and the time that I was baptized, I was not really saved; because according to their theology baptism is a part of salvation. As I pressed the issue, showing from the Bible that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, he declared that I sill was not saved because of my belief.

Your argument is much the same as his. As he does, you base it on your own thelogical presuppositions. You ignore my testimony that I am saved. I believe according to the Word of God that I am saved and have eternal life. But you (inadvertently) question that. For you tell me that if I should commit adultery some time later, I would not be saved in the first place. Thus you question my salvation even now, simply because I say that there is a possibility of me falling into sin.

God never promises to keep us from sin, even those sins which you call sins unto death. There is no such promise in the Bible.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob,

Please revisit my earlier post. I changed up some of my comments not knowing you would be on line.

O, contrare' Pierre! Read Rom 7 where Paul said that he did things in his flesh that his spirit would not will! All you are doing with that remark is UNSAVING Paul!!

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Paul said he did not walk after the flesh.

See, this is just the issue, isn't it. You would treat all who haven't met your standard of behavior (supposedly based on your understanding of the Bible) as if they were LOST. Do you give ANY thought to accepting one's profession over his/her behavior as you think they should act?

Bob, I'm getting that "not invented here" impression regarding your theology. If you don't know it, it ain't so. That can be very detrimental not only personally but in ministry. Please tell me "it ain't so."

Not my behavior, but scripture.

skypair

I gave you scripture only, if you reject scripture, I can't help you.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I beg to differ. Your arguments are no different than the Church of Christ poster that I debated about a year ago in the Other Denominations Forum. My testimony is that I was saved when I was 20 through the ministry of an on-campus Interdenominational organization. They never taught about the importance of the local church or about baptism. I did not become baptized until two years later, when the Lord led me to an IFB church.

According to this COC poster, during the time that I professed Christ as Saviour and the time that I was baptized, I was not really saved; because according to their theology baptism is a part of salvation. As I pressed the issue, showing from the Bible that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, he declared that I sill was not saved because of my belief.

Your argument is much the same as his. As he does, you base it on your own thelogical presuppositions. You ignore my testimony that I am saved. I believe according to the Word of God that I am saved and have eternal life. But you (inadvertently) question that. For you tell me that if I should commit adultery some time later, I would not be saved in the first place. Thus you question my salvation even now, simply because I say that there is a possibility of me falling into sin.

God never promises to keep us from sin, even those sins which you call sins unto death. There is no such promise in the Bible.

BBob; I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation, again a gross misunderstanding, or just being naive

Oh, so you believe you can lose your salvation.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Oh, so you believe you can lose your salvation.

BBob,

Where did you read that Bob. I clearly said in that post: I believe according to the Word of God that I am saved and have eternal life.

Are you purposely trying to slander me?

 

[Brother Bob]

Where did you read that Bob. I clearly said in that post: I believe according to the Word of God that I am saved and have eternal life.

Are you purposely trying to slander me?

Go back and see what you posted, in #246. Slander, no I don't have to do that.

I did not question your salvation either, you use my theology and say, I am saying you are not saved. That is false. I have ever right to give my belief on the scripture. It has nothing to do with you what so ever. If I have to say that God's children commit incest, adultery, pedophile to keep from you having me kicked off of BB, I will never say such a thing.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Go back and see what you posted, in #246. Slander, no I don't have to do that.

When posters post something false about me, I always tell them to use quotes. I advise you to do the same. Please quote me where I said or even implied that I could lose my salvation. If you can't then an apology is warranted, or at least retract what you have stated.

I stated what the COC believed about my salvation.
I stated what you logically would believe about my salvation because your argumentation runs parallel to the COC.
I also quoted a clear statement of salvation which included a statement of eternal life or OSAS.
Thus the onus is now on you to back up the slander which you have posted, or retract it.

I did not question your salvation either, you use my theology and say, I am saying you are not saved. That is false. I have ever right to give my belief on the scripture. It has nothing to do with you what so ever. If I have to say that God's children commit incest, adultery, pedophile to keep from you having me kicked off of BB, I will never say such a thing.
BBob,

Perhaps not outwardly you are not questioning my salvation. (And no Bob, in no way am I trying to get you kicked off of the BB. The thought never even entered my mind. This is simply debate and that is all.) I was simply showing you that your logic leads to the questioning of my salvation without you even realizing it. Whether it be me or some other believer, as soon as they sin (as in committing adultery), you automatically condemn them and say they were never a believer in the first place. That is a convenient out for you. But only God judges the heart. God forbid that I should ever fall into that sin. But I do know preachers that have fallen into immorality. Do I question their salvation because of it? No, I have pity on them because they are no longer able to shepherd the flock of God; their ability to minister is greatly hindered. It shouldn't have happened; but it did. Is he (they) still saved. By their testimony, yes. I have no reason to doubt their testimonies. Saved by grace through faith. We all are sinners saved by grace.

 

[Brother Bob]

When posters post something false about me, I always tell them to use quotes. I advise you to do the same. Please quote me where I said or even implied that I could lose my salvation. If you can't then an apology is warranted, or at least retract what you have stated.

Quote:
I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation, again a gross misunderstanding, or just being naive.
I beg to differ. Your arguments are no different than the Church of Christ poster that I debated about a year ago in the Other Denominations Forum. My testimony is that I was saved when I was 20 through the ministry of an on-campus Interdenominational organization. They never taught about the importance of the local church or about baptism. I did not become baptized until two years later, when the Lord led me to an IFB church.

The above is your post. You used my post where I said "I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation".

Your answer to my post is "I beg to differ". So that is where you differed from me when I said I didn't believe anyone had lost salvation and you said "I beg to differ". Your words not mine.

I stated what the COC believed about my salvation.
I stated what you logically would believe about my salvation because your argumentation runs parallel to the COC.
I also quoted a clear statement of salvation which included a statement of eternal life or OSAS.
Thus the onus is now on you to back up the slander which you have posted, or retract it.
I never even answered you concerning COC, so I have absolutely nothing to back up, for I did no slander. You need to thicken your skin a little.

Perhaps not outwardly you are not questioning my salvation. (And no Bob, in no way am I trying to get you kicked off of the BB. The thought never even entered my mind. This is simply debate and that is all.) I was simply showing you that your logic leads to the questioning of my salvation without you even realizing it. Whether it be me or some other believer, as soon as they sin (as in committing adultery), you automatically condemn them and say they were never a believer in the first place. That is a convenient out for you. But only God judges the heart. God forbid that I should ever fall into that sin. But I do know preachers that have fallen into immorality. Do I question their salvation because of it? No, I have pity on them because they are no longer able to shepherd the flock of God; their ability to minister is greatly hindered. It shouldn't have happened; but it did. Is he (they) still saved. By their testimony, yes. I have no reason to doubt their testimonies. Saved by grace through faith. We all are sinners saved by grace.

I do not believe Christians can commit adultery, incest, pedophile, etc. I have not changed my stance one ioda. This is my belief and my Opinion. If you differ, of which you do, I can't help that. You are entitled to your belief and I am to mine. I will stand on mine until I die, BB or no BB.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Quote:
I don't believe anyone has lost their salvation, again a gross misunderstanding, or just being naive.
I beg to differ.

I differed with your statement of opinion.
You said that you don't believe anyone has lost their salvation; whereas I believe that you, according to your own theology believe the opposite. You teach that believers can lose their salvation by committing sins of adultery, etc. Your out is simply by saying they were never saved in the first place. But the end result is the same. Like the believer in 1Cor.5 who committed incest, and Paul considered a brother in Christ, you condemned him to Hell and turned around and simply proclaimed that he wasn't a believer in the first place. Quite Amazing!!

 

[Brother Bob]

I differed with your statement of opinion.
You said that you don't believe anyone has lost their salvation; whereas I believe that you, according to your own theology believe the opposite. You teach that believers can lose their salvation by committing sins of adultery, etc. Your out is simply by saying they were never saved in the first place. But the end result is the same. Like the believer in 1Cor.5 who committed incest, and Paul considered a brother in Christ, you condemned him to Hell and turned around and simply proclaimed that he wasn't a believer in the first place. Quite Amazing!!
[/color]

Not near as amazing as having Jesus die for all your sins and then accept Him as your Saviour, then go right back into the same sins. Its is too much for me to believe after the feeling of having the load of sin lifted from you and then go right back into it. That is what is amazing, when Jesus told the woman in adultery, "sin no more". That means "no more".

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Not near as amazing as having Jesus die for all your sins and then accept Him as your Saviour, then go right back into the same sins. Its is too much for me to believe after the feeling of having the load of sin lifted from you and then go right back into it. That is what is amazing, when Jesus told the woman in adultery, "sin no more". That means "no more".

BBob,

All we have is the command of Jesus: "sin no more." The Bible is completely silent on whether she was able to keep that command or not. However there is plenty of evidence that she believed on the Messiah. Thus whether she sinned or not is irrelevant. If eternal means eternal it can never mean temporal, can it. What is your definition of eternal life?

 

[Brother Bob]

All we have is the command of Jesus: "sin no more." The Bible is completely silent on whether she was able to keep that command or not. However there is plenty of evidence that she believed on the Messiah. Thus whether she sinned or not is irrelevant. If eternal means eternal it can never mean temporal, can it. What is your definition of eternal life?

What else do you want DHK; Jesus said "sin no more", that is very clear to me.

That she never committed adultery or some similar sin again, and in the resurrection she will be rewarded both soul and body.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

What else do you want DHK; Jesus said "sin no more", that is very clear to me.

That she never committed adultery or some similar sin again, and in the resurrection she will be rewarded both soul and body.

BBob,

Jesus would have told Rahab the harlot the same thing also; wouldn't you think. But she sinned anyway. She lied. Whether it was for a "good cause" or not it was still a lie.
Will she be in heaven Bob?

 

[Brother Bob]

Jesus would have told Rahab the harlot the same thing also; wouldn't you think. But she sinned anyway. She lied. Whether it was for a "good cause" or not it was still a lie.
Will she be in heaven Bob?

I have no idea, but she was under the Law Covenant, but I think she was a Gentile, not sure. Anyway, they worshipped in the flesh under the Law Covenant and because of the weakness of the flesh, Jesus had to come and die and set up a New Covenant called Grace, where God seeketh such to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. That is why I think you are at fault for bringing up David all the time, for he was under a fleshly Covenant.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

I have no idea, but she was under the Law Covenant, but I think she was a Gentile, not sure. Anyway, they worshipped in the flesh under the Law Covenant and because of the weakness of the flesh, Jesus had to come and die and set up a New Covenant called Grace, where God seeketh such to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. That is why I think you are at fault for bringing up David all the time, for he was under a fleshly Covenant.

BBob,

Bob you are not thinking straight. Christ had not died yet. It was the Pharisees that brought the woman caught in adultery to Christ. She was "under the law." That was the purpose in bringing her to him, for they caught her in the very act. What, according to the Law, would Christ do with her? This woman was indeed under the Law.

As for Rahab in the OT, yes she was a Gentile. She would have been judged even harsher, but it were for the mercy of God. She became a believer in Jehovah because of what she heard of the God of Israel and his mighty works being done in Egypt. She feared Him, and thus came to believe on Him--was a convert to the Jewish faith.

However sin is sin.
We do not read if the adulterous woman sinned again or not. She probably did, for no one can live a sinless life.
We do read of Rahab the harlot. She lied as a new believer.
It is a fact: Christians sin.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob you are not thinking straight. Christ had not died yet. It was the Pharisees that brought the woman caught in adultery to Christ. She was "under the law." That was the purpose in bringing her to him, for they caught her in the very act. What, according to the Law, would Christ do with her? This woman was indeed under the Law.

As for Rahab in the OT, yes she was a Gentile. She would have been judged even harsher, but it were for the mercy of God. She became a believer in Jehovah because of what she heard of the God of Israel and his mighty works being done in Egypt. She feared Him, and thus came to believe on Him--was a convert to the Jewish faith.

However sin is sin.
We do not read if the adulterous woman sinned again or not. She probably did, for no one can live a sinless life.
We do read of Rahab the harlot. She lied as a new believer.
It is a fact: Christians sin.

No, the blood had not been shed, but Jesus was the true light and He was here and had power to forgive sin, and personally forgave her and gave her a commandment to sin no more. If she did sin again, then she broke the commandment. Jesus said "if you love me" you will keep my commandments. It would not speak well of her, but I don't think she did. Of course she sinned, but not adultery or any similar sin.

Rahab, lied before Grace was pronounced upon her, if my memory serves me correctly.

BBob,