Salvation Assurance Beliefs

[BobRyan]

If anyone professes VCHrist goes 10 years then denies Christ, his faith wasn't truly in Christ.

If never saved THEN he did not fall. At worst he WOKE up to a realization of his lost state!!

If never saved THEN he did not fail to CONTINUE in belief

If never saved THEN he was never forgiven and could never have forgiven others as HE was freely forgiven (Matt 18).

If never saved he did not FAIL to persevere for he DID persever in being lost the entire time!!

Now lets go to the texts that DO speak of FAILING to persevere - by contrast.

I will allow you the first set of texts to quote.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Drfuss: Considering salvation assurance beliefs to be either Calvinistis or Arminian lead to many misunderstandings about what others believe. The following is an attempt to delineate the various beliefs on this issue.

HP: This all amounts to nothing more than an exercise in futility. Unless one defines CLEARLY what one means when he uses the word ‘works,’ nothing of any substance can be settled. Scripture states that faith without works is dead being alone. Maybe you should have asked how many believe that you can be saved with dead faith.

Could you define ‘works’ as you are using it? Thanks.

 

[drfuss]

HP writes:
"HP: This all amounts to nothing more than an exercise in futility. Unless one defines CLEARLY what one means when he uses the word ‘works,’ nothing of any substance can be settled. Scripture states that faith without works is dead being alone. Maybe you should have asked how many believe that you can be saved with dead faith.

Could you define ‘works’ as you are using it? Thanks."

Good point. I define works in these belief descriptions as somethings man must do in order for God's Grace to be applied.

Beliefs #5 & 6 require some good works for God's Grace to be applied for salvation assurance.

Belief #4 requires believing in Christ and maintaining a victorious christian life (His spirit bears witness with our spirit, etc.) for salvation assurance. Belief #4 says good works has nothing to do with salvation, but will be a byproduct of the required victorious christian life.

Belief #3 requires only continuing to believe is Christ for salvation assurance. Here good works and a victorious christian life have nothing to do God's Grace being applied, but should be a part of the believers life.

That was a good question. Hope this helps.

Concerning dead faith, I believe that means for a believer to examine his faith if there are no good works. However, dead faith is part of evaluating the beliefs rather than just defining them. I am trying here to define, clarify and compare the various beliefs rather than debate them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

drfuss: I define works in these belief descriptions as somethings man must do in order for God's Grace to be applied.

HP: Thank you. I appreciate your understanding for the need of a clear definition.

According to your definition can I assume you would classify 'faith' as a work required of man, due to the fact that faith requires an act of the will?

 

[James_Newman]

According to God, believing is not a work.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

James Newman: According to God, believing is not a work. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

HP: There are two issues mentioned in this verse, believing and faith. Let me ask you, can you have belief without faith?

 

[drfuss]

HP writes:
"According to your definition can I assume you would classify 'faith' as a work required of man, due to the fact that faith requires an act of the will?"

No, I do not consider faith as a work. Faith is believing. I define work as something we do for: the glory of God, the good of others, fulfilling our obligations and responsibilities, etc.

 

[James_Newman]

HP: There are two issues mentioned in this verse, believing and faith. Let me ask you, can you have belief without faith?

I agree with drfuss, believing is faith. Show me your faith without your believing and I will show you my faith by believing. You can't separate them because they are the same thing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

drfuss: No, I do not consider faith as a work. Faith is believing. I define work as something we do for: the glory of God, the good of others, fulfilling our obligations and responsibilities, etc.

HP: Does faith involve an act of the will or not? Does believing involve an act of the will in the formation of an intent to accept whatever evidence that has been presented to the mind as truth?

What possible work (something man must do) could anyone do for the glory of God, or pure selfishness for that matter, that first does not start with an act of the will in the formation of an intent, including exercising faith or believing? I cannot see how you can try and separate an act of the will, something man must do in order to exercise faith or belief, from faith itself. You are trying to remove something from the very nature of faith, that without which it is no faith at all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

James Newman: I agree with drfuss, believing is faith. Show me your faith without your believing and I will show you my faith by believing. You can't separate them because they are the same thing.

HP: Now that is a convenient way to treat Scripture. If you don’t like the word used, just insert your own.

 

[drfuss]

J.N. writes:
"I agree with drfuss, believing is faith. Show me your faith without your believing and I will show you my faith by believing. You can't separate them because they are the same thing."

I don't think I said that. I think you are referring to H.P.'s question. I was answering HP's other question about faith and works.

 

[James_Newman]

You said

Faith is believing

That is what I agree with.

 

[James_Newman]

HP: Now that is a convenient way to treat Scripture. If you don’t like the word used, just insert your own.

They mean the same thing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Faith is believing

JN: That is what I agree with.

HP: If faith is believing and faith without works is dead according to Scripture, one can only conclude that believing without works is dead also, correct? If not, why not?

 

[James_Newman]

I don't have to conclude that, the bible concluded that for me. But what does it mean when it says faith without works is dead, being alone. It is apparent that faith can be alone without works. So the argument that faith without works is not faith is without merit.

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Save him from what?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JN: They mean the same thing.

HP: I can only assume that you are referring to the passage in James that states that 'faith without works is dead being alone.' You have, as I read you, tried to insert the word “believing” for the word “works,” is that not correct? You also said that believing and faith are the same, so logically there is only one conclusion that can be reached. Faith, works, and belief or believing, are all representing the same idea. Before we examine the ramifications of such a belief, (or should I say works? or should I say faith?) we might pause to see if in fact you might possibly desire to alter your definitions a bit.

 

[James_Newman]

HP: I can only assume that you are referring to the passage in James that states that 'faith without works is dead being alone.' You have, as I read you, tried to insert the word “believing” for the word “works,” is that not correct? You also said that believing and faith are the same, so logically there is only one conclusion that can be reached. Faith, works, and belief or believing, are all representing the same idea. Before we examine the ramifications of such a belief, (or should I say works? or should I say faith?) we might pause to see if in fact you might possibly desire to alter your definitions a bit.

Sorry if I caused any confusion, no I do not believe that works and faith are the same thing. I was merely using a familiar verse to illustrate my position that faith is belief and belief is faith. Belief without works is the same thing as faith without works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

drfuss: I don't have to conclude that, the bible concluded that for me. But what does it mean when it says faith without works is dead, being alone. It is apparent that faith can be alone without works. So the argument that faith without works is not faith is without merit.

HP: James was trying to illustrate that when one tries to establish that he is a believer strictly on the account of his ‘faith’ (as if though faith and formulated intents of the will could be separated) such faith is dead or no faith at all. It is worthless or meaningless without the will formulating intents consistent with the idea of obedience to God’s commands. James must have known a lot of men supporting antinomian attitudes, as if though they could have faith without exercising obedience to the moral law of God, or that they could accept Christ by faith without fulfilling the command of repentance and exercising a changed attitude and heart towards their former sins.

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

drfuss: Save him from what?

HP: From sin and the corresponding punishment God has established, eternal separation from God in a living hell.

 

[James_Newman]

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So does that mean a body without the spirit is not a body at all? It is dead, but it is still a body.

Luke 8:50
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Faith does not have to have works associated with it to be faith. Some times faith demands works, some times it does not. If I believe that Jesus saved me by His sacrifice on the cross, what work can I add to that belief to validate it? Nothing at all. Nothing I do or do not do will change the fact that Jesus saved me by His blood. The only questions I would ask are what did He save me from, and is that the only thing that I have to be saved from?

If faith + works is required to be saved from the eternal penalty of sin, then we have contradictions in the Bible. We have agreed that faith and works are not the same thing. How can you be sure that James is not speaking of being saved from something else?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: No problem James. When Scripture speaks of belief, faith is often an assumed idea incorporated in belief. Belief in some cases can indeed be speaking about strictly head knowledge, with no act of the will or faith involved. When we speak of a person needing to ‘believe’ in order to be saved, we more often than not are (or should be) assuming that faith is indeed incorporated in that belief. We should also be incorporating the idea of repentance in the idea of ‘belief’ as well, if it is a ‘belief that saves.’

I agree in a sense with your last statement that

“belief without works is the same thing as faith without works.”

They are both powerless, dead, as far as being effective in fulfilling the conditions God has set forth in order to be saved, i.e., repentance and faith, without which no salvation can or will be accomplished.