Well, basically that is what Baptists believe in regard to progressive sanctification. We believe that regeneration is the beginning of this transformation and it is progressive in this life and only complete in glorification.
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Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology
- Thread starter JarJo
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Well, basically that is what Baptists believe in regard to progressive sanctification. We believe that regeneration is the beginning of this transformation and it is progressive in this life and only complete in glorification.
What about the initial repentance and faith that lead to justification? Aren't those a cooperation with grace in some way?
The difference is that each denomination puts a different spin on words and passages we don't understand. It's all "money trail" <G> A church can't pay the bills preaching, "Jesus died for the sins of the world but we don't understand the details." Instead, they preach, "Only we understand the details."
Thinkingstuff
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If that is the case why the issue with Infusion?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Funny. But not fair. In some cases I would agree with you. But overall Churches are more conserned about the salvation of their neighbors and try to lead them according to their convictions.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Here I have a question as well. Isn't anytime we purposely will ourselves to Obey Jesus Christ isn't that cooperation? Jesus is transforming us into his image and the more prayer time, living according to his word, and the like isn't that cooperation with Jesus as we will ourselves to be more like him?
Here is where there are some disagreement among Baptists. I believe that gospel repentance and faith are "gifts" of God produced in us by the regenerating Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; Eph. 2:8; Philip. 1:29; Rom. 4:16). In essence, they are the manifest products of regeneration. No chronoloigcal order but merely a logical cause and effect order as in the bullet and hole analogy. Regeneration and conversion to the gospel are simeltaneous (1 Jn. 5:1) in action. We can state it like the Old Testament prophet "turn us and we shall be turned." God does the turning but if He is turning us then we are being turned. Regeneration is God turning us but conversion is the experiential expression of being turned. Hence, God initiates and enables both turning and being turned. We are passive in regeneration as that is a CREATIVE work of God but it is regenerative life that activates repentance and faith. In other words God gives us a NEW heart and that new heart is a heart that hates darkness (repentance) and loves light (faith).
DHK and other Baptists believe they are not "gifts" but natural inherent abilities found in every man. However, they would rightly deny they are "works" because they are said to be of "grace" (Rom. 4:16) in direct contradiction to works (Eph. 2:8-9).
Either way Baptist would agree that faith is merely receiving the good news with the heart (Rom. 10:10) rather than externally participating in any works such as baptism, church membership as in the sacramental view.
Perhaps this link on Justification and the Council of Trent will be helpful:
http://www.christianity.com/ChurchH...com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=01/13/2012/
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I've read Trent on Justification and I don't see how this link is helping because it misappliles what cooperation means. The only difference I see is that in Trent a person has free will to choose for God which goes against the reformed view but if you hold to free will choosing for God is cooperation is it not?
I haven't seen a response to this question.
The issue JarJo is that you put down as your "Statement of Salvation" "baptism & sacraments". To a Baptist, a statement of salvation would be more like "saved by the blood of Jesus Christ" but instead you posted things that you did. Would you stand before God and say "I'm saved because of baptism and sacraments"?
No, if one chooses to reject Christ as Savior who is he cooperating with? It is his choice.
OTOH, if he chooses to receive Christ as Savior who is he cooperating with? It is his choice.
"For, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
It can't get much plainer than that.
Thinkingstuff
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There is no cooperation in justification. Salvation is by faith alone, as Luther discovered.
Romans 5:1 Having therefore been justified by faith we have peace with God. There is nothing to cooperate with. God does the justifying.
For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph.2:8,9)
--Salvation is a gift. There is no cooperation in a gift. It is simply received (John 1:12). Do your children work for a Christmas gift or a birthday gift? Or do they simply receive it from you? A gift is received, not worked for. There is no cooperation.
The thief on the cross was a very perverse man, but Jesus granted him salvation on the basis of his faith.
Good, then you know I believe the Bible, and not some man's theology.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You are talking about two different things. 1st Do you believe we can choose for and against Jesus? If we can then when Jesus offers you a free gift are you being noncooperative if you reject it? Of course. Are you cooperating with him when you accept it. Of course. Simple. When you do Jesus' will are you cooperating absolutely. Doesn't change the nature of the gift or that the gift is free. I think this is where you get stuck. You think cooperation means you're dying on the cross next to Jesus helping him to forgive you. That is not what it means. It means doing the things God would like you to do such as accept a free gift and following him. So in Fact you are cooperating with God when you pray and when you follow his scriptures. Yes there is cooperation.
No he wasn't. He was repentent. I'm speaking about some one without faith. Who shouts Jesus name like a charm as in the 7 brothers who tried to drive out a demon using Jesus' name.
What you have described is blasphemy.
Salvation is a gift. There is no cooperation in receiving a gift. Even an infant (in our world) receives a gift, such as a rattle. What cooperation is there. A gift is to be received. The gift of salvation is based on knowledge of the gospel, and therefore requires faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Is what the Bible said about Christ and his work true or not? If true will you accept it by faith? Or will you deny it? You have that choice. There is absolutely no cooperation involved.
I am not cooperating you if I call you a heretic, a blasphemer, etc.
Neither am I cooperating with you if I call you a saint and a brother.
I am not cooperating you if I accept your fellowship or reject it.
In both cases it is my decision.
And so it is with Christ. It is my decision without any cooperation.
Christ said on the cross: "It is finished."
There is nothing more to do. The work of salvation is done. There is no cooperation. He shed his blood. He paid the penalty. To say there is cooperation is blasphemy and reduces the value of the blood of Christ and implies it is not sufficient enough to pay for our sins. What a blasphemous theology this is!!!
Absolutely NOT! The gift of salvation is once and for all--a one time act. Obedience to His will afterward is an act of a servant obeying his Master. I would hope that his servants obey their Master in all humility. He is Lord. I am his servant. It is only my reasonable service that I should sacrifice my life, a living sacrifice for Him who died for me. It is not cooperation; it is absolute sacrificial service.
That is where the Catholics get stuck. They really don't believe that Christ died for their sins. That is why they have a theology of works.
They believe in purgatory, because Christ didn't die for their sins. The blood wasn't sufficient. They must be purged from their sins, helping out Christ pay what he could not pay. How blasphemous?
They believe in baptismal regeneration. The same concept is in effect here. The blood of Christ was not sufficient enough. Their baptism had to make up a part of the atonement of Christ. Spit on his face. Slap him around. Insult him. But you say that he didn't atone fully for your sins and you had to help him. There will be boasting in heaven if you make it, because you say your baptism helped Jesus to make it there.
There is no cooperation.
Jesus Paid It All.
All to Him I owe.
Sin has left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
Repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration and therefore are "of grace" (Rom. 4;16; Acts 11:17) and not of works (Eph. 2:8-9). It is not of him that willeth or him that runneth but of God that sheweth mercy (Rom. 9:17).
That was the state of his heart just as faith is the state of the heart (Rom. 10:10). But you are talking about manifest faithfulness to Christ by what you do in addition to what you are! What you are must precede what you do and what you are is determined by regeneration/justification but what do is determined by progressive sanctification as a consequence, result of what you are by regeneration/justification. It is this confusion between what you are versus what you do as a consequence of what you are that is at the root of our disagreement. I don't deny that being something is manifested by doing but I do deny that doing determines being. Being is determined by birth not by post-birth doings!
Can the Ethiopian change what they are? Can the Lepord change what they are? No, that comes by birth. Likewise, regeneration determines what you are and that is an act of God. However, Rome's position is that the Ethiopian can change what they are by cooperation with God and the Lepord can change what they are by cooperation with God.
Being is determined by birth not by post-birth doings! Just as you had no cooperative influence in your first birth neither do you in your second birth:
Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me,
The above text does NOT say,
"But when it pleased me and God, when we separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to help reveal his Son in me."
No I wouldn't say that to God. I guess I would have nothing to say to God the Father at the judgement after looking at my life story, and things would look pretty sad. But my faith and hope is that Jesus will say 'good news, your bill has been paid!" and I would get in for free.
This is pretty much what catholics believe:
CCC #1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The scriptures also say
So just calling on Jesus doesn't save but you must have a right heart.
That is the total opposite of what we believe.
And you have left out some of what Catholics believe are essential to salvation such as Baptism.
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