Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm curious DHK you say you were Catholic for 20 years and you left because the Catholic Church

They don't preach the gospel

Hmmm
Strange I remember last Sunday and it kind of when like this. Every one showed up and the priest (presbyter) said

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit

to which everyone replied

Amen.

Then the priest (Presbyter) said

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the communion of the Holy Spirit
be with you all.

then he said

The Lord be with you.

to which everyone replied

And with your spirit

then everyone sang

Kyrie, eleison. Christe, eleison. Kyrie, eleison

Then the Priest (presbyter) said

May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life

to which everyone replied

Amen

And then some one got up (a lector) and read 1 Sam 3:3b-10, 19 after that we read from the psalms one person will read a section and the congregants will reply a psalm refrain then the Lector gets up again and reads 1 Cor 6:13c-15a, 17-20. After he's done reading this, he gets down and the priest holds up a gold covered book containing the four gospels and lifts it above his head so everyone can see and the people sing Allelluia. The priest then prays

May the Lord be in your heart and on your lips,
that you may proclaim his Gospel worthily and well,
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

after which he reads Jn 1:35-42. When he is done he places the Golden book of Gospels down and teaches on the meaning of the passages.
Now that was my experience last Sunday and about every Sunday with different readings. With all those scriptures read and expounded on how did you miss the gospel?

 

[DHK]

I'm curious DHK you say you were Catholic for 20 years and you left because the Catholic Church
Hmmm
Strange I remember last Sunday and it kind of when like this. Every one showed up and the priest (presbyter) said to which everyone replied Then the priest (Presbyter) said then he said to which everyone replied then everyone sang Then the Priest (presbyter) said to which everyone replied And then some one got up (a lector) and read 1 Sam 3:3b-10, 19 after that we read from the psalms one person will read a section and the congregants will reply a psalm refrain then the Lector gets up again and reads 1 Cor 6:13c-15a, 17-20. After he's done reading this, he gets down and the priest holds up a gold covered book containing the four gospels and lifts it above his head so everyone can see and the people sing Allelluia. The priest then prays after which he reads Jn 1:35-42. When he is done he places the Golden book of Gospels down and teaches on the meaning of the passages.
Now that was my experience last Sunday and about every Sunday with different readings. With all those scriptures read and expounded on how did you miss the gospel?

Even from what you described I doubt very much if there was any gospel message presented in that mass. Nothing at all gives me that impression. It is all ceremony. There is Scripture being read. Some if was out of A Gospel. But that is not what I am talking about.

What I am speaking about is The Gospel--the power of God unto salvation; the one that Paul was not ashamed to preach; the one that Paul said if anyone should preach any other he would be accursed:

(Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
--That gospel was not there.

(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--The preaching of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness in the RCC. It is absent.

(1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

(1Co 2:2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
--The readings, nor the message, in your church were not what Paul determined to preach--the gospel.

It is further elaborated on in 1Cor.15:1-4

 

[DHK]

Ok... Let me see if I have this correct.

a) Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

b) From that one verse you have arrived at: "A man is justified by faith and faith alone."

c) Yet, nowhere does scripture state that we are justified by faith ALONE. Just for the record, you (and Luther) added that bit. (Hey...you brought in Luther not me)

d) DHK said: "The Catholic church does not believe that, and neither its adherents."

TRUE! They don't believe it because it's not biblical.

e) DHK said: "As long as that one fact remains true, they are doomed never to enter heaven."

It not a fact and it's certainly not true. I think most knowledgable Catholics are quite comfortable with their final destination. Further, I doubt that many Catholics would take much stock in your judgement of their salvation. I mean... since you're not God and all.

WM

(Rom 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The verse says "justified by faith."
That is all it says.
The Bible also says to add nothing to the Word of God.
So how many things would you like to add to by faith?
By faith and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, etc.?
How much more perversion is in your religion?

 

[The Biblicist]

I already explained that calling someone and elder who is set apart for a specific purpose in the service of God is not wrong. Which is exactly what What Holy Father means. The rest of your argument falls because you're not even interpreting the words correctly.

That is completely false! "Holy Father" is found as a direct address and is NEVER used as a direct address by men to other men. It is NEVER used in scripture for anyone but God the Father. These are the facts and this is the truth.

You are simply using mental gynastics to cover Catholic abominations.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Even from what you described I doubt very much if there was any gospel message presented in that mass. Nothing at all gives me that impression. It is all ceremony. There is Scripture being read. Some if was out of A Gospel. But that is not what I am talking about.

What I am speaking about is The Gospel--the power of God unto salvation; the one that Paul was not ashamed to preach; the one that Paul said if anyone should preach any other he would be accursed:

(Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
--That gospel was not there.

(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--The preaching of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness in the RCC. It is absent.

(1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

(1Co 2:2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
--The readings, nor the message, in your church were not what Paul determined to preach--the gospel.

It is further elaborated on in 1Cor.15:1-4

Then you must not have gone to mass to listen to what was read and being said. Because when you first go into Any Catholic Church what is the first thing you see? The Crusifix with the body broken and bleeding and if you ask anyone why the Catholic Church puts that there? To remind you of the Sacrifice Jesus made on your behalf to take away your sins. Another prayer is said in mass called the creed which explicitly states what we believe. It says in the creed: For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven. and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

Sounds alot like the Catholics are preaching Christ Crucified. There is another prayer called the mystery of Faith "We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
and profess your Resurrection until you come again." Again Christ Crucified. hmmm. I guess you werent listening. The Catholic Church teaches Christ Crucified in its decorations and its prayers and teachings. So how did you miss it?

 

[The Biblicist]

With all those scriptures read and expounded on how did you miss the gospel?

Simply because Rome perverts the gospel by teaching sacramental salvation. Sacrament justification/regeneration/sanctification is explicitly condemned by Paul in Romans 4:5-12.

Reading the scriptures is not preaching the gospel. Preaching the gospel is declaring the truth of the gospel and Rome repudiates the truth of the gospel.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That is completely false!

Biblicist you're letting me down. This is beneath you.
The definition of Holy is to set something apart for a specific purpose.
The word Father not only means biological father but is a title of reverance for an elder or leader. So how can it be completely false. Put together that word means and elder who is set apart for a specific purpose and in the Catholic church it is a service to God. In fact scriptures says anyone of you who wants to lead should serve. Paraphrased by me. But you get the point.

"Holy Father" is found as a direct address and is NEVER used as a direct address by men to other men.

It has been for over a thousand years. and the word father has conotated leadership in just about every culture. Note that Lord always references God in scriptures as well but people call kings and queens lord. God didn't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[DHK]

Then you must not have gone to mass to listen to what was read and being said. Because when you first go into Any Catholic Church what is the first thing you see? The Crusifix with the body broken and bleeding and if you ask anyone why the Catholic Church puts that there? To remind you of the Sacrifice Jesus made on your behalf to take away your sins. Another prayer is said in mass called the creed which explicitly states what we believe. It says in the creed: For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven. and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

Sounds alot like the Catholics are preaching Christ Crucified. There is another prayer called the mystery of Faith "We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
and profess your Resurrection until you come again." Again Christ Crucified. hmmm. I guess you werent listening. The Catholic Church teaches Christ Crucified in its decorations and its prayers and teachings. So how did you miss it?

I can quote some of those things in both Latin and English. So what!
Memorized creeds and prayers are meaningless.

Walking into a church and practicing idolatry is a great sin before God as well.
Mariolatry is another abomination before the Lord. There is only one that deserves our adoration and reverence and that is God.
I walked away from all those sinful practices, condemned in the Bible, after I got saved.

 

[steaver]

I wonder if our catholic friends could tell me if they ever hear their church preach from the gospel that without faith in Jesus Christ a person cannot be saved. That a person must be born of God through faith in Jesus Christ or they will not be saved. That this includes all people from all religions, no matter how many good things they do, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and God they will not be saved.

do you hear this gospel truth preached in your churches?

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist you're letting me down. This is beneath you.
The definition of Holy is to set something apart for a specific purpose.
The word Father not only means biological father but is a title of reverance for an elder or leader. So how can it be completely false. Put together that word means and elder who is set apart for a specific purpose and in the Catholic church it is a service to God. In fact scriptures says anyone of you who wants to lead should serve. Paraphrased by me. But you get the point.

It has been for over a thousand years. and the word father has conotated leadership in just about every culture. Note that Lord always references God in scriptures as well but people call kings and queens lord. God didn't seem to have a problem with it.

You are intentionally perverting the facts. We are not arguing about the term "father" as found by itself. We are not discussing the term "holy" as found by itself. We are not even talking about "holy father" outside of the context of DIRECT ADDRESS.

We are talking about the ONLY CASE where "Holy Father" occurs together in direct address to God the Father.

An Arian could argue that "Lord" even as a direct address does not demand deity. An Arian could argue that calling some one "God" does not prove diety (Psa. 86; Jn. 1:1; 10. However, he cannot assert that when combined "Lord God" in direct address by the people of God that it addresses anyone other than the One True God or else it is blasphemy.

That is true with the direct address of "Holy Father."

You don't like these facts and so you play these little mental gynastic games where you separate the two terms and then argue on the basis of each term separate from one another and separate from the Biblical where they are not separated but combined. That is the little game you are playing. Sorry, I don't play your little game.

Furthermore, your little game is bankrupt because you cannot find a single solitary text where the people of God by direct address said "holy Elders"! All you can find is where ALL PEOPLE OF GOD are EQUALLY holy and thus no human singled out this way by direct address.

 

[JarJo]

I wonder if our catholic friends could tell me if they ever hear their church preach from the gospel that without faith in Jesus Christ a person cannot be saved. That a person must be born of God through faith in Jesus Christ or they will not be saved. That this includes all people from all religions, no matter how many good things they do, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and God they will not be saved.

do you hear this gospel truth preached in your churches?

They would preach this but only in a positive way. They would preach about the importance of bringing the good news of Jesus Christ to the world for their salvation, but they wouldn't make any negative claims about the world being damned without hearing the gospel. Which I believe is the approach used by Paul in Acts.

 

[DHK]

They would preach this but only in a positive way. They would preach about the importance of bringing the good news of Jesus Christ to the world for their salvation, but they wouldn't make any negative claims about the world being damned without hearing the gospel. Which I believe is the approach used by Paul in Acts.

Do you think Paul was always positive:

(Act 13:10) And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

 

[steaver]

They would preach this but only in a positive way. They would preach about the importance of bringing the good news of Jesus Christ to the world for their salvation, but they wouldn't make any negative claims about the world being damned without hearing the gospel. Which I believe is the approach used by Paul in Acts.

Wouldnt that be not preaching the fullness of the gospel message. Jesus preached condemnation to those who believed not, why wouldnt your church follow Jesus' directive?

 

[The Biblicist]

They would preach this but only in a positive way. They would preach about the importance of bringing the good news of Jesus Christ to the world for their salvation, but they wouldn't make any negative claims about the world being damned without hearing the gospel. Which I believe is the approach used by Paul in Acts.

Jn. 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

By the way this is the same gospel preached by Jesus Christ and his message of "repent or PERISH."

Paul preached the same gospel Jesus preached and commissioned as Galatians 1 explicitly states that Paul received his gospel from Christ and then in Galatians 2 confirmed it was the same gospel delivered to the twelve.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[DHK]

Might have to start another thread on this one.
This is long past the 30 page limit.