Salvation the Arminian Way

[rockytopva]

George Clark Rankin tells it best... In which he starts out in a Calvinistic church...

"Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me."

 

[rockytopva]

When his grandfather could no longer care for him GC Rankin then takes the train to his uncle in North Georgia...

"It was not long until I was in the road and making tracks to where my uncle lived. It was in 1866 and the marks of Sherman's march to the sea were everywhere visible. The country was very much out of repair and all around Dalton the earth was marked with breastworks. Every hill showed signs of war. Much of the fencing had not been restored and here and there I could see blackened chimneys still standing. After I had gotten out a few miles I stopped and took that old pistol with its belt and scabbard out of my satchel and buckled the war paraphernalia around my person on the outside of my coat. In the course of an hour I was at my uncle's. He was surprised to see me, but gave me a cordial welcome. The first thing he did was to disarm me, and that ended my pistol-toting. I have never had one about my person or home to this good day. And I never will understand just why I had that one. A good dinner refreshed me and I soon unfolded my plans and they were satisfactory to my kind-hearted kinsman. He was in the midst of cotton-picking and that afternoon I went to the field and had my first experience in the cottonfield. We then would get ready for the revival occurring that night…"

 

[rockytopva]

GC Rankin then picks up salvation the good way in an Arminian church...

After the team had been fed we put the mules to the wagon, filled it with chairs and we were off to the meeting. When we reached the locality it was about dark and the people were assembling. Their horses and wagons filled up the cleared spaces and the singing was already in progress. My uncle and his family went well up toward the front, but I dropped into a seat well to the rear. It was situated in a grove about one hundred yards from the road. It was lighted with old tallow-dip candles furnished by the neighbors. It was an old-fashioned church and ancient in appearance, but it was soon crowded and evidently there was a great deal of interest. A cadaverous-looking man stood up in front with a tuning fork and raised and led the songs. There were a few prayers and the minister came in with his saddlebags and entered the pulpit. He was the Rev. W. H. Heath, the circuit rider. His prayer impressed me with his earnestness and there were many amens to it in the audience. I do not remember his text, but it was a typical revival sermon, full of unction and power.

At its close he invited penitents to the altar and a great many young people flocked to it and bowed for prayer. Many of them became very much affected and they cried out distressingly for mercy. It had a strange effect on me. It made me nervous and I wanted to retire. Directly my uncle came back to me and asked me if I did not want to be religious. I told him that I had always had that desire, that mother had brought me up that way, and really I did not know anything else. Then he wanted to know if I had ever professed religion. I hardly understood what he meant and did not answer him. He changed his question and asked me if I had ever been to the altar for prayer, and I answered him in the negative. Then he earnestly besought me to let him take me up to the altar and join the others in being prayed for. It really embarrassed me and I hardly knew what to say to him. He spoke to me of my mother and said that when she was a little girl she went to the altar and that Christ accepted her and she had been a good Christian all these years. That touched me in a tender spot, for mother always did do what was right. Oh, if she were there to tell me what to do!

 

[rockytopva]

I yielded to his entreaty and he led me forward to the altar. The minister took me by the hand and spoke tenderly to me as I knelt at the altar. I had gone more out of sympathy than conviction, and I did not know what to do after I bowed there. The others were praying aloud and now and then one would rise shoutingly happy and make the old building ring with his glad praise. It was a novel experience to me. I spent the most of the hour wondering why I was there and what it all meant. Once in awhile some good old brother would pass my way, strike me on the back and tell me to look up and the blessing would come. But that was not encouraging to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense and the noise was distracting me. Even in my crude way of thinking I had an idea that religion was a sensible thing and that people ought to become religious intelligently and without all that hurrah. I presume that my ideas were the result of the Presbyterian training given to me by old grandfather. By and by my knees grew tired and I thought the service never would close. That was my first experience at the mourner's bench.

 

[rockytopva]

As we drove home I listened attentively to the conversation between my uncle and his wife. They were greatly impressed with the meeting, and they spoke first of this one and that one who had come through and what a change it would make in the community, as many of them were bad boys. As we were putting up the team my uncle spoke encouragingly to me; he was delighted with the step I had taken and he pleaded with me not to turn back, but to press on until I found the pearl of great price. He knew my mother would be very happy over the start I had made. Before going to sleep I fell into a train of thought. I wondered why I had gone to that altar and what I had gained by it. I felt no special conviction and had received no special impression, but then if my mother had started that way there must be something in it, for she always did what was right. I silently lifted my heart to God in prayer for conviction and guidance. I knew how to pray, for I had come up through prayer, but not the mourner's bench sort. So I determined to continue to attend the meeting and keep on going to the altar until I got religion.

 

[rockytopva]

Early the next morning I was up and in a serious frame of mind. I went with the other hands to the cottonfield and at noon I slipped off in the barn and prayed. But the more I thought of the way those young people were moved in the meeting and with what glad hearts they had shouted their praises to God the more it puzzled and confused me. I could not feel the conviction that they had and my heart did not feel melted and tender. I was callous and unmoved in feeling and my distress on account of sin was nothing like theirs. I did not understand my own state of mind and heart. It troubled me, for by this time I really wanted to have an experience like theirs…

When evening came I was ready for Church service and was glad to go. Another large crowd was present and the preacher was as earnest as ever. I did not give much heed to the sermon. I was anxious for him to conclude and give me a chance to go to the altar. I had gotten it into my head that there was some real virtue in the mourner's bench; and when the time came I was one of the first to prostrate myself before the altar in prayer.

Two or three good people at intervals knelt by me and spoke encouragingly to me, but they did not help me. Their talks were mere exhortations to earnestness and faith, but there was no explanation of faith, neither was there any light thrown upon my mind and heart. I wrought myself up into tears and cries for help, but the whole situation was dark. Now and then others would arise from the altar in an ecstasy of joy, but there was no joy for me. When the service closed I was discouraged and felt that maybe I was too hardhearted and the good Spirit could do nothing for me.

 

[rockytopva]

After we went home I tossed on the bed before going to sleep and wondered why God did not do for me what he had done for mother and what he was doing in that meeting for those young people at the altar. I could not understand it. But I resolved to keep on trying, and so dropped off to sleep. And so for several nights I repeated the same distressing experience. The meeting took on such interest that a day service was adopted along with the night exercises, and we attended that also. And one morning while I bowed at the altar in a very disturbed state of mind Brother Tyson, a good local preacher, sat down by me and, putting his hand on my shoulder, said to me: “Now I want you to sit up awhile and let's talk this matter over quietly. I am sure that you are in earnest, for you have been coming to this altar night after night for several days. I want to ask you a few simple questions.”

….And the following questions were asked and answered…

Q. My son, do you not love God?

A. I cannot remember when I did not love him.

Q. Do you believe on his Son, Jesus Christ?

A. I have always believed on Christ. Mother had taught me from my earliest recollection.

Q. Do you accept him as your Savior?

A. I certainly do, and have always done so.

Q. Can you think of any sin that is between you and the Savior?

A. No, sir; for I have never committed any bad sins.

Q. Do you love everybody?

A. Well, I love nearly everybody, I have no ill-will toward any one. An old man did me a wrong not long ago, but I do not care to injure him.

Q. Can you forgive him?

A. Yes, if he wanted me to.

Q. But, down in your heart, can you wish him well?

A. Yes, sir; I can do that.

 

[rockytopva]

-----

 

[rockytopva]

Well, now let me say to you that if you love God, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin and if you love your fellowmen and intend by God's help to lead a religious life, that's all there is to religion. In fact, that is all I know about it. Then he repeated several passages of Scriptures to me proving his assertions. I thought a moment and said to him: “But I do not feel like these young people who have been getting religion night after night. I cannot get happy like them. I do not feel like shouting.”

The good man looked at me and smiled and said: “Ah, that's your trouble. You have been trying to feel like them. Now you are not them; you are yourself. You have your own quiet disposition and you are not turned like them. They give way to their feelings, but feeling is not religion. Religion is faith and life. If you have violent feeling with it, all good and well, but if you have faith and not much feeling, why the feeling will take care of itself. To love God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, turning away from all sin, and living a godly life, is the substance of true religion.”

That was new to me, yet it had been my state of mind from childhood. As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without…

I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.……………………………………….

 

[rockytopva]

I would also like to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name, in like methods, with all the emotion and hurrah, was also registered in the Lamb's Book of Life!

 

[MennoSota]

One question: What's your point?

 

[rockytopva]

The Cripple Creek camp meeting was probably started by Francis Asbury himself and lasted over 100 years. In my church the men would sit and pray on the left side of the church and the woman on the right, just like they did in the Cripple Creek meetings back in the late 1700's....

And GC Clark Rankin goes on to tell of the Arminian services here in Virginia, and beginning in his book on page 239...

I passed my examinations and that year I was sent to the Wytheville Station and Circuit. That was adjoining my former charge. We reached the old parsonage on the pike just out of Wytheville as Rev. B. W. S. Bishop moved out. Charley Bishop was then a little tow-headed boy. He is now the learned Regent of Southwestern University. The parsonage was an old two-and-a-half-story structure with nine rooms and it looked a little like Hawthorne's house with the seven gables. It was the lonesomest-looking old house I ever saw. There was no one there to meet us, for we had not notified anybody of the time we would arrive.

Think of taking a young bride to that sort of a mansion! But she was brave and showed no sign of disappointment. That first night we felt like two whortleberries in a Virginia tobacco wagonbed. We had room and to spare, but it was scantily furnished with specimens as antique as those in Noah's ark. But in a week or so we were invited out to spend the day with a good family, and when we went back we found the doors fastened just as we had left them, but when we entered a bedroom was elegantly furnished with everything modern and the parlor was in fine shape. The ladies had been there and done the work. How much does the preacher owe to the good women of the Church!

The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.

The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

At the close of that year in casting up my accounts I found that I had received three hundred and ninety dollars for my year's work, and the most of this had been contributed in everything except money. It required about the amount of cash contributed to pay my associate and the Presiding Elder. I got the chickens, the eggs, the butter, the ribs and backbones, the corn, the meat, and the Presiding Elder and Brother Stradley had helped us to eat our part of the quarterage. Well, we kept open house and had a royal time, even if we did not get much ready cash. We lived and had money enough to get a good suit of clothes and to pay our way to conference. What more does a young Methodist preacher need or want? We were satisfied and happy, and these experiences are not to be counted as unimportant assets in the life and work of a Methodist circuit rider.

 

[rockytopva]

One question: What's your point?

To show the beauties of the great Arminian revival! The anatomy of the Methodist revival…

1.A Circuit Rider begins a revival at a local Methodist church
2.Altar Services (called after services) were conducted after the sermon
3.Many would ‘come through’ to Christ and were emotionally affected
4.The Revival begins morning services as other churches join in the revival.
5.Results – The results produced Christian ladies and gentlemen…. "About his Aunt Elizabeth, though, Robert was certain. He could not recall a time when she had not encouraged him to read his Bible, to keep his person clean, and to attend church. Equally forceful were his aunt’s lectures about keeping good company and developing high ideals. All of these things were to be attained with and practiced with a special sort of dignity that Elizabeth White felt was becoming to every man.” -Jess Carr's Saint of the Wilderness

The old Methodist would not let you claim ‘religion’ until the Christ came shinning through. They would tell you to come back tomorrow night if they could not sense a sweet spirit in the experience!

 

[MennoSota]

Religious Affections by Jonathan Edwards. Written during the Great Awakening.
Religious Affections - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I find his viewpoint very insightful.

 

[MennoSota]

From Religious Affections:

After religion has revived in the church of God, and enemies appear, people that are engaged to defend its cause, are commonly most exposed, where they are sensible of danger. While they are wholly intent upon the opposition that appears openly before them, to make head against that, and do neglect carefully to look all around them, the devil comes behind them, and gives a fatal stab unseen; and has opportunity to give a more home stroke, and wound the deeper, because he strikes at his leisure, and according to his pleasure, being obstructed by no guard or resistance.
And so it is ever likely to be in the church, whenever religion revives remarkably, till we have learned well to distinguish between true and false religion, between saving affections and experiences, and those manifold fair shows, and glistering appearances, by which they are counterfeited; the consequences of which, when they are not distinguished, are often inexpressibly dreadful. By this means, the devil gratifies himself, by bringing it to pass, that that should be offered to God, by multitudes, under a notion of a pleasing acceptable service to him, that is indeed above all things abominable to him. By this means he deceives great multitudes about the state of their souls; making them think they are something, when they are nothing; and so eternally undoes them; and not only so, but establishes many in a strong confidence of their eminent holiness, who are in God's sight some of the vilest of hypocrites. By this means, he many ways damps and wounds religion in the hearts of the saints, obscures and deforms it by corrupt mixtures, causes their religious affections woefully to degenerate, and sometimes, for a considerable time, to be like the manna that bred worms and stank; and dreadfully ensnares and confounds the minds of others of the saints and brings them into great difficulties and temptation, and entangles them in a wilderness, out of which they can by no means extricate themselves. By this means, Satan mightily encourages the hearts of open enemies of religion, and strengthens their hands, and fills them with weapons, and makes strong their fortresses; when, at the same time, religion and the church of God lie exposed to them, as a city without walls. By this means, he brings it to pass, that men work wickedness under a notion of doing God service, and so sin without restraint, yea with earnest forwardness and zeal, and with all their might. By this means he brings in even the friends of religion, insensibly to themselves, to do the work of enemies, by destroying religion in a far more effectual manner than open enemies can do, under a notion of advancing it. By this means the devil scatters the flock of Christ, and sets them one against another, and that with great heat of spirit, under a nation of zeal for God; and religion, by degrees degenerates into vain jangling; and during the strife, Satan leads both parties far out of the right way, driving each to great extremes, one on the right hand, and the other on the left, according as he finds they are most inclined, or most easily moved and swayed, till the right path in the middle is almost wholly neglected. And in the midst of this confusion, the devil has great opportunity to advance his own interest, and make it strong in ways innumerable, and get the government of all into his own hands and work his own will. And by what is seen of the terrible consequences of this counterfeit religion, when not distinguished from true religion, God's people in general have their minds unhinged and unsettled in things of religion, and know not where to set their foot, or what to think or do; and many are brought into doubts, whether there be anything in religion; and heresy, and infidelity, and atheism greatly prevail.
Therefore it greatly concerns us to use our utmost endeavors clearly to discern, and have it well settled and established, wherein true religion does consist. Till this be done, it may be expected, that great revivings of religion will be but of short continuance; till this be done, there is but little good to be expected of all our warm debates in conversation and from the press, not knowing clearly and distinctly what we ought to contend for.

 

[Calv1]

I would also like to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name, in like methods, with all the emotion and hurrah, was also registered in the Lamb's Book of Life!

Is there a point to this? What a long, well I don't get it.

 

[Calv1]

To show the beauties of the great Arminian revival! The anatomy of the Methodist revival…

1.A Circuit Rider begins a revival at a local Methodist church
2.Altar Services (called after services) were conducted after the sermon
3.Many would ‘come through’ to Christ and were emotionally affected
4.The Revival begins morning services as other churches join in the revival.
5.Results – The results produced Christian ladies and gentlemen…. "About his Aunt Elizabeth, though, Robert was certain. He could not recall a time when she had not encouraged him to read his Bible, to keep his person clean, and to attend church. Equally forceful were his aunt’s lectures about keeping good company and developing high ideals. All of these things were to be attained with and practiced with a special sort of dignity that Elizabeth White felt was becoming to every man.” -Jess Carr's Saint of the Wilderness

The old Methodist would not let you claim ‘religion’ until the Christ came shinning through. They would tell you to come back tomorrow night if they could not sense a sweet spirit in the experience!

So unless they felt something, they couldn't claim to be Christians? Oh great!

You got one thing right, 1800's, late 1800's was when Liberalism crept into the Church of God, from the Reformation until the late 1800's, the norm was Reformed, Pres, Baptist, Most Methodists, we also got out of this liberal movement, it's genesis from German Higher Criticism. This Higher Criticism hit everything from reliability of Scripture, did Christ really rise, pretty much whatever you could think of, the Devil was working overtime and it paid off, from it, and Spurgeon watched it, if scripture isn't accurate, hey if John wasn't written until 185, we can't take every word literally, so MASSIVE amounts of Churches turned Arminian, Spurgeon called it the "Downgrade", from it we got Pentecostalism, Open Theology, so many heresies. It's amazing listening to say Pink or Tozer, they'd comment CONSTANTLY how the Church is lost, how it's become so liberal and WE CAN'T IMAGINE THE FUTURE, well we see it, we're here, they thought it was bad then, early 1900's, they'd freak if they saw how it is today, doctrines of men, ignorance of scripture, ignoring texts of God speaking about how He works in the world, I believe American has ALREADY been judged, I was shocked to find out some like Sproul and Dr. White who agree with me, or me with them I should say.

Think about it, Christianity is dead in Europe, in America we have such a strong tradition that many are "Christian", you know they are "Good", go to Church, but have never met the savior. When I see the Gay Rainbow over the White house, I see a nation already turned over, we celebrate degeneration, and criticize the truth. Romans 1 turned over, "nor did they give Him glory, so He turned them over to the lusts of the flesh"

We need Reformed Revival, we see that everywhere, young Christians who are rock ribbed Reformed, it's like God is separating the Wheat from the Tares, a divide right down the middle, so where is Faith found? I know every generation thinks this way, but I really believe the Lord is on His way, has there ever been a time where God's word has so little attention? Heresy presented as Christianity on a regular basis, I just think He's on His way.

Off topic, I think alter calls are the biggest joke ever, where, may I ask, in scripture is a alter call? Where do the Apostles say "Do you want to give you life to Jesus"? They didn't, this is what they said "Repent and Believe", the command, you don't invite people to a King, yes you should tell people to repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus, and if you do you will be saved, but that's not what happens, they give this emotional services, I remember when I went to Calvary a pastor, Raul Reece, he got more "converts" than anyone, how? He'd scare the Hell out of you, he'd just talk about Hell, then do a alter call, and sure enough magic everyone giving their lives to the Lord....for the night.

I think what Spurgeon did was about right, "If you feel you want to be a disciple, if you wish to repent and believe, you can come and talk with me, but not until tomorrow", for he realized that many get emotional, and there is NOTHING WORSE than false conversions, they go forward, sign a card, get a bible, are told they are saved, and that's it, we see them everywhere, on this forum, they've never denied themselves. Repentance and faith is AFTER Regeneration, God, remember His promise right "I'LL" and in HE WILL DO IT, "I WILL take out their heart of stone, and put in a heart of flesh", oh how can man think they are the ones coming to the King? Accepting the King? There has never been a man who desired to be saved who was denied, those who are not elect have no desire for God, but they can be manipulated into a free pass out of Hell, happens every night!

I agree with my friends, Edwards "Religious Affections" is perfect, our Spirit is dead, not sick, but DEAD, when God regenerates us, and only then, can we first understand the things of Scripture, and two have God honoring affections. A Thug can, if presented the gospel right, feelings for Christ, this means nothing, eloquent speech, get the person to see how wonderful this man was, grab him while he's emotional, and put another crown on your head. No! We have affections for the glory of God, for the "Beauty of the Lord", but to suggest feelings are the qualification is simply un-biblical, have they never read the Psalms?

America has MANY professing Christians, but very few regenerate Christians. One of the things I love so much in God's plan of salvation, and the thing Arminians hate, is that God gets 100% of the Glory, 100% of the credit, Reformed Christians know there is nothing special in us that led to our salvation, while the Arminian robs God of glory, that's the MAIN reason I hate Arminianism, for if you think about it, if it's man's free will choice, then the Arminian either has to be 1. Smarter then the brother who rejects the gospel. 2. Better morally. 3. In the right place at the right time, preached to and that emotion came out, there is no escaping this, and no one has an answer for it, for the Arminian, the deciding fact is not God, God can be frustrated in their scheme and NNE COMES TO HIM, and Christ die in vain, for since it's ultimately depends on man, then they take some glory, so maybe 10% man, 90% God, is that right? I mean you're smarter than your neighbor right? Or are you morally better? Right place, right time? So Chance?

The Synod of Dort got it right, Arminianism is a quasi Roman Catholic Heresy, and it's very dangerous

 

[rockytopva]

So unless they felt something, they couldn't claim to be Christians? Oh great!

Well... We are going to encourage people to revival, prayer, and the altar. There was a story of an old farmer man seeking religion in these methods who was out in the field plowing. When his horse was not willing to plow wind rows straight enough for his liking he gets angry and starts beating the horse.

About that time his Armenian wife pops her head out of the old farmhouse and yells, "Not yet honey! Not yet!"

When you get your religion in these methods the first ones to know about it will be the family pets. Instead of kicking them you will rub them and show them love. God's grace and lovingkindness then will become a reality to you, that can be drunk and savored in the spiritual man. You will have a love that will make for a great home, life, and testimony. It will make a saint and a shining example of the Christian faith.

 

[Jerome]

I think what Spurgeon did was about right, "If you feel you want to be a disciple, if you wish to repent and believe, you can come and talk with me, but not until tomorrow"

That's some quote! More please. What sermon is that from?

 

[utilyan]

So unless they felt something, they couldn't claim to be Christians? Oh great!

You got one thing right, 1800's, late 1800's was when Liberalism crept into the Church of God, from the Reformation until the late 1800's, the norm was Reformed, Pres, Baptist, Most Methodists, we also got out of this liberal movement, it's genesis from German Higher Criticism. This Higher Criticism hit everything from reliability of Scripture, did Christ really rise, pretty much whatever you could think of, the Devil was working overtime and it paid off, from it, and Spurgeon watched it, if scripture isn't accurate, hey if John wasn't written until 185, we can't take every word literally, so MASSIVE amounts of Churches turned Arminian, Spurgeon called it the "Downgrade", from it we got Pentecostalism, Open Theology, so many heresies. It's amazing listening to say Pink or Tozer, they'd comment CONSTANTLY how the Church is lost, how it's become so liberal and WE CAN'T IMAGINE THE FUTURE, well we see it, we're here, they thought it was bad then, early 1900's, they'd freak if they saw how it is today, doctrines of men, ignorance of scripture, ignoring texts of God speaking about how He works in the world, I believe American has ALREADY been judged, I was shocked to find out some like Sproul and Dr. White who agree with me, or me with them I should say.

Think about it, Christianity is dead in Europe, in America we have such a strong tradition that many are "Christian", you know they are "Good", go to Church, but have never met the savior. When I see the Gay Rainbow over the White house, I see a nation already turned over, we celebrate degeneration, and criticize the truth. Romans 1 turned over, "nor did they give Him glory, so He turned them over to the lusts of the flesh"

We need Reformed Revival, we see that everywhere, young Christians who are rock ribbed Reformed, it's like God is separating the Wheat from the Tares, a divide right down the middle, so where is Faith found? I know every generation thinks this way, but I really believe the Lord is on His way, has there ever been a time where God's word has so little attention? Heresy presented as Christianity on a regular basis, I just think He's on His way.

Off topic, I think alter calls are the biggest joke ever, where, may I ask, in scripture is a alter call? Where do the Apostles say "Do you want to give you life to Jesus"? They didn't, this is what they said "Repent and Believe", the command, you don't invite people to a King, yes you should tell people to repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus, and if you do you will be saved, but that's not what happens, they give this emotional services, I remember when I went to Calvary a pastor, Raul Reece, he got more "converts" than anyone, how? He'd scare the Hell out of you, he'd just talk about Hell, then do a alter call, and sure enough magic everyone giving their lives to the Lord....for the night.

I think what Spurgeon did was about right, "If you feel you want to be a disciple, if you wish to repent and believe, you can come and talk with me, but not until tomorrow", for he realized that many get emotional, and there is NOTHING WORSE than false conversions, they go forward, sign a card, get a bible, are told they are saved, and that's it, we see them everywhere, on this forum, they've never denied themselves. Repentance and faith is AFTER Regeneration, God, remember His promise right "I'LL" and in HE WILL DO IT, "I WILL take out their heart of stone, and put in a heart of flesh", oh how can man think they are the ones coming to the King? Accepting the King? There has never been a man who desired to be saved who was denied, those who are not elect have no desire for God, but they can be manipulated into a free pass out of Hell, happens every night!

I agree with my friends, Edwards "Religious Affections" is perfect, our Spirit is dead, not sick, but DEAD, when God regenerates us, and only then, can we first understand the things of Scripture, and two have God honoring affections. A Thug can, if presented the gospel right, feelings for Christ, this means nothing, eloquent speech, get the person to see how wonderful this man was, grab him while he's emotional, and put another crown on your head. No! We have affections for the glory of God, for the "Beauty of the Lord", but to suggest feelings are the qualification is simply un-biblical, have they never read the Psalms?

America has MANY professing Christians, but very few regenerate Christians. One of the things I love so much in God's plan of salvation, and the thing Arminians hate, is that God gets 100% of the Glory, 100% of the credit, Reformed Christians know there is nothing special in us that led to our salvation, while the Arminian robs God of glory, that's the MAIN reason I hate Arminianism, for if you think about it, if it's man's free will choice, then the Arminian either has to be 1. Smarter then the brother who rejects the gospel. 2. Better morally. 3. In the right place at the right time, preached to and that emotion came out, there is no escaping this, and no one has an answer for it, for the Arminian, the deciding fact is not God, God can be frustrated in their scheme and NNE COMES TO HIM, and Christ die in vain, for since it's ultimately depends on man, then they take some glory, so maybe 10% man, 90% God, is that right? I mean you're smarter than your neighbor right? Or are you morally better? Right place, right time? So Chance?

The Synod of Dort got it right, Arminianism is a quasi Roman Catholic Heresy, and it's very dangerous

We Catholics believe you give way less credit to God, you congratulate ourselves for breathing, even breathing is God's credit.

We think God is good enough teacher to teach you to even fix yourself.

The only thing stopping me from agreeing with you is I have to believe and declare God is an idiot.

The Saints run circles around your IDEA of God. Your Idea of him is so evil I can't think of one person who would be worst.


Last I check, I did not create myself, we have Our Father for a creator, last I checked he designed everything about me, even has my hairs counted. So how can I possibly "take credit"?


The problem is with folks who look on God's command as a chore rather then the reward itself. They mock us with doing Good works will not give us salvation.

Brother you can keep salvation, Loving God and Loving neighbor we do those for free.