Salvation understanding and Regeneration question

[zrs6v4]

Im really sorry to keep bringing up something that has been beaten dead with a stick, but I am trying to figure this Calvinist understanding of regeneration. I dont mind a non-cal stating some opinions as long as we can discuss peacfully ...

So here is where Im at...

Romans 8:28-30

God has a given process of salvation

foreknowledge, then predestination, then His call, then justification, then glorification....

So, God's foreknowledge is not just His act of knowing about the person, but literally giving Himself to them... I understand opposing views see this point differently

Predestination is simply a secret process by which He appoints destinies to creation according to His purpose and will for them and is the complete act of grace. it is an unseen mystery Deut. 29:29

His call is the act by which at some point in time according to His will He opens the eyes of the blind sinner to see and understand with their hearts, which seems to begin the process of repentance/conversion which is a change of heart,mind,direction,will, and attitude. This repentance is a granted act which will endure the lifetime of the sinner. This is probably where fear, love of God over self, hate of sin, desire, thirst for righteousness, and honest true prayer fit in. Im guessing this is regeneration.

Justification- is through faith which somewhere is produced in the act of God's call to repentance as the sinner is most likely humbled (broken, helpless) as they see their life of previous sin/continual rebellion and offense to God and the reality of it (the mirror of the word). Justification is that actual act of saving faith which transfers the spiritual healing of the soul through the transfer of atonement for sin. This atonement is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus traded for our sinful life, wrath deserved, and spiritual death and seperation

Salvation, repentance, and faith are not a one time act. Salvation is the beginning of a lifelong process by which repentance and faith are simultaneous acts that start at the beginning of salvation and last the lifetime of a Christian.

sanctification- the process throughout life where the Christian experiences growth in wisdom, knowledge, and grows closer to God.

Glorification- Is the final act in the finishing of salvation when God makes one complete for the heavenly kingdom, which is after death.


Is regeneration the same as recieving the Holy Spirit and being born again? if so how does it fit into the process? When I say process I realize we cannot necesarily put order to these events that seem to get pretty in depth.

Sorry I didnt use scripture but i can if needed, Im sure most have all of the offending and defending ones on hand anyways.

The call/regeneration seem to describe what Jesus is saying in the beattitudes, Rev. 22:17, and Isaiah 55:1.

-Zach

 

[canadyjd]

Is regeneration the same as recieving the Holy Spirit and being born again? if so how does it fit into the process?

I believe regeneration equals being "born again". I don't believe regeneration/born again equals the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit.

One of the works of Holy Spirit is regeneration/causing to be born again. The end result of this work will be salvation that is appropriated by faith. At that time, Holy Spirit indwells the believer as the pledge promise of God that all that He has said is true.

peace to youraying:

 

[zrs6v4]

I believe regeneration equals being "born again". I don't believe regeneration/born again equals the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit.

One of the works of Holy Spirit is regeneration/causing to be born again. The end result of this work will be salvation that is appropriated by faith. At that time, Holy Spirit indwells the believer as the pledge promise of God that all that He has said is true.

peace to youraying:

would you basically agree with the rest of my post?

1. So one is born again when he is called by God from death (regeneration) to life?

2. being born again is not recieving the Holy Spirit into your life? (I have no opinion here, but just clarifying).

3. here is the verse that puzzles me about your statement.

John 3:3-8 "Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." which there isnt an issue here

v5-6 "...unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh but that which is born of Spirit is spirit."

I see that Jesus is equating being born again with being born of the Spirit (capital S), so can you explain what our being born of the Spirit actually is?

It doesnt make sense to me right now to be born again, then believe, then recieve the Holy Spirit. but it is interesting because I have always equated rebirth with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..

John 14:23 "If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and my Father will love him and make our home with him" so when we recieve the Spirit we already are in a state of love and keeping the commands which seems that it may be evidence of birth beforehand...

 

[zrs6v4]

I would actually love to have various views with scripture from anyone willing to kindly state their view...

 

[Allan]

I would actually love to have various views with scripture from anyone willing to kindly state their view...

You are correct in that born of the Spirit (New Birth) equals regeneration and that the new birth therefore equals the indwelling of the Spirit. For unless we are born-again 'dead', we must conclude with the scriptures that we are born 'with and in' Life. Thus being Born into Christ, we see the scriptures bare this out when it states that we are 'alive in Christ'. Our life (the new birth) is because we are "IN" Christ Jesus and if you are IN Christ then you ARE saved.

And we know that no man is saved in this dispensation of grace unless the Spirit of God has placed taht person into the body of Christ Jesus through His baptism.

I have discussed this part of regeneration with my Reformed brethren in both of my Threads dealing with Regeneration and specifically "Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration". In this last thread I post something that has bothered me about their stance on Regeneration prior to salvation, more specifically regarding their understanding of what Regeneration both is and does:

1. You state that justification, sanctification, rightousness, indwelling, and being In Christ all come about 'by faith' - so you agree with me [Allan] here.

2. You also agreed with me that all the above are the aspects of the regeneration.

3. But then you stated that they are not the new birth - which IS the regeneration.


Let us reveiw this 3rd part - which makes no sense to me.
What MAKES a person new (the old things are no longer, everything is now new) or what constitutes the new birth?

Does He give us something (a new spirit) like giving a child a new bike to replace the old one? OR Does He renew the old by cleansing it and bring it back to it's intended original state?

I believe scripture supports the later:
Scritpure states:

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice they are only a new creation once they are IN Christ not before.

How do we (according to scripture) come into Christ? Answer - through faith.

But in the Reformed view, we are a new creation and in Christ while still in sin (thus still needing a saviour and to repent).
It is through the cleansing of Christ's death (the propitiation) where by we are allowed entrance. Why? Because it justifies and sanctifies us, making us righteous, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit - and therefore we are placed into Chrsit.

And all of these you agreed come about or are imparted by faith and not prior to it.

Without which being new or not we are still in our sins and thus dead, and if dead we are still in Darkness [and not in Christ Jesus].

But when all the above are imparted (done to man by God) it is only then that one can biblically state they are a new creation - Old things are no more (sin and seperation from God - the old life have been removed) behold/take notice - all things have become new.

The indwelling Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation and the New birth, according to scripture, is described as an event in which the Old is 'No More' but you have become a new creation.

We find in scripture that regeneration is primarily the acts of justification and sanctification (Titus 3:5) which result in being righteous and in Christ and thus being 'alive' because we are no longer seperated from God and sinfilled, but 'In Christ' seperate from sin and sin-cleansed. Spiritual life is being in God not merely being.

Thus as scripture states, all those things which constitutes a regenerate life all come about 'through faith' and not prior to it, because it is 'by faith' we find in scripture that they all transpire.
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Therefore the truth is, we are not first made regenerate that these things happen, but things things are in deed the regeneration itself. They discribe what changes the life (justification and sanctification) to something new thus they descibe the act of being regenerate or changed from the old into the New.


Anyway that is my take.

 

[TCGreek]

You are correct in that born of the Spirit (New Birth) equals regeneration and that the new birth therefore equals the indwelling of the Spirit. For unless we are born-again 'dead', we must conclude with the scriptures that we are born 'with and in' Life. Thus being Born into Christ, we see the scriptures bare this out when it states that we are 'alive in Christ'. Our life (the new birth) is because we are "IN" Christ Jesus and if you are IN Christ then you ARE saved.

And we know that no man is saved in this dispensation of grace unless the Spirit of God has placed taht person into the body of Christ Jesus through His baptism.

I have discussed this part of regeneration with my Reformed brethren in both of my Threads dealing with Regeneration and specifically "Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration". In this last thread I post something that has bothered me about their stance on Regeneration prior to salvation regarding their understanding of what Regeneration both is and does:


The indwelling Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation and the New birth, according to scripture, is described as an event in which the Old is 'No More' but you have become a new creation.

We find in scripture that regeneration is primarily the acts of justification and sanctification (Titus 3:5) which result in being righteous and in Christ and thus being 'alive' because we are no longer seperated from God and sinfilled, but 'In Christ' seperate from sin and sin-cleansed. Spiritual life is being in God not merely being.

Thus as scripture states, all those things which constitutes a regenerate life all come about 'through faith' and not prior to it, because it is 'by faith' we find in scripture that they all transpire.
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Therefore the truth is, we are not first made regenerate that these things happen, but things things are in deed the regeneration itself. They discribe what changes the life (justification and sanctification) to something new thus they descibe the act of being regenerate or changed from the old into the New.


Anyway that is my take.

Allan, believe it or not, but I'm leaning more toward Erickson's ordo salutis more:

Where regeneration comes after repentance and faith.

But the "call of God" would make it possible for the sinner to exercise saving faith.

 

[Allan]

Allan, believe it or not, but I'm leaning more toward Erickson's ordo salutis more:

Where regeneration comes after repentance and faith.

But the "call of God" would make it possible for the sinner to exercise saving faith.

I agree with that. :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

I agree with that. :thumbs:

A closer read of Paul brought me to that conclusion. Here's one of those texts:

"For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people" (1 Cor 7:22).

 

[Allan]

A closer read of Paul brought me to that conclusion. Here's one of those texts:

"For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people" (1 Cor 7:22).

That was one of mine as well. Another for me was this one:

Act 26:17 rescuing you from the {Jewish} people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,

Act 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

 

[zrs6v4]

Allan, believe it or not, but I'm leaning more toward Erickson's ordo salutis more:

Where regeneration comes after repentance and faith.

But the "call of God" would make it possible for the sinner to exercise saving faith.

I think I agree with both of you on this...

There is in fact somthing special about the "call" that makes faith come to existence which is in our view a responsibility but looking back we can see God's total work in us for making this faith possible. I would say I think it is irresitable still (from God's view point), but Allen if you would please explain what you know about the Call of God? as I recall you believe it is resistable, which from our view point it surely is, along with the loss of salvation (self-deception), and so forth. From God's view I dont think this call (or loss of salvation) is possible. Living with this on my conscience both gives hope of eternal securityand fear of responsibility at the same time making both views useful applicable. (I know you believe in eternal security by the way). -Zach

 

[zrs6v4]

You are correct in that born of the Spirit (New Birth) equals regeneration and that the new birth therefore equals the indwelling of the Spirit. For unless we are born-again 'dead', we must conclude with the scriptures that we are born 'with and in' Life. Thus being Born into Christ, we see the scriptures bare this out when it states that we are 'alive in Christ'. Our life (the new birth) is because we are "IN" Christ Jesus and if you are IN Christ then you ARE saved.

makes sense

I have discussed this part of regeneration with my Reformed brethren in both of my Threads dealing with Regeneration and specifically "Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration". In this last thread I post something that has bothered me about their stance on Regeneration prior to salvation, more specifically regarding their understanding of what Regeneration both is and does:

thanks, I need to check it out which i forgot the last time you gave me this..

The indwelling Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation and the New birth, according to scripture, is described as an event in which the Old is 'No More' but you have become a new creation.

We find in scripture that regeneration is primarily the acts of justification and sanctification (Titus 3:5) which result in being righteous and in Christ and thus being 'alive' because we are no longer seperated from God and sinfilled, but 'In Christ' seperate from sin and sin-cleansed. Spiritual life is being in God not merely being.

Thus as scripture states, all those things which constitutes a regenerate life all come about 'through faith' and not prior to it, because it is 'by faith' we find in scripture that they all transpire.
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Therefore the truth is, we are not first made regenerate that these things happen, but things things are in deed the regeneration itself. They discribe what changes the life (justification and sanctification) to something new thus they descibe the act of being regenerate or changed from the old into the New.

Anyway that is my take.

it seems like these things you listed above all of course come through faith, but again the call is the key here as to why it may be confused with regeneration..

I think I agree now that it really doesnt make sense to be born again and still be under the sin bondage (this I am looking into shortly), while there must be something to happen (Holy Spirit's work) in order that we might be driven through these events which are all involved the conversion, or faith and direction would be impossible. The problem I have is again from God's view I dont see the Holy Spirit calling someone and failing to bring them through all of these events.

As I recall when I went through these things I was blind of what was going on but there was a faith I didnt understand that carried me through this while seeing the impossiblities of myself to meet the satisfaction of Jesus' requirements, while it was me and my choice, there was a deeper desire and determination with fear and assurance that caused me to do what seems to be all of the right things and make choices against my own nature as if I hated it. I desired no part of the old self but rather began to despise it really fast as I saw the pain and seperation it caused from the Lord. I cant pin-point at what time I actually was born again but it seems as if these things might have rained on me all at one time and continued out. From what i remember I was slowly drawn from a sermon that caught my attention and caused me to search the truth for the first time for myself. I didnt want to go to anyone, but I went and bought a bible and began reading things like the Psalms, proverbs, and ultimatly the Gospels. After a few days of going straight home from work and searching I began to see things Jesus taught and this is where it really began. Like I said I recall fear and hope and a desire fight the fight despite what was to come. I really think back at some things I prayed and how I prayed and it amazes me as I learn the Word more. Now, 18 months later, I battle to get as close to God as I was for the first few months.

To make a long detailed story short, I have been drawn to the study of Salvation for the last few months trying to understand for some reason. The more I learn about it, it seems the more I am forced to trust God in other peoples lives because of the impossibility of them doing it without Him.. As I said there was no point after I got into the Word, even though I may have had a few thoughts, that would even come close to extinguishing the burn that was instilled already to live the life Jesus spoke of, while knowing how impossible it was and even facing great fears in reading.. It really reminds me of John 6:63-66, many turned back but the disciples were drawn and it doesnt say why.. I think that is what was spoken earlier in the chapter about the Fathers drawing.. sorry for the rambling

 

[OldRegular]

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ.


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ; they are saved [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.


2. Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace, occurs simultaneous with regeneration, and is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit. Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book God the Holy Spirit notes that “our spiritual life is drawn directly from Jesus Christ. We are sustained by Him through the indwelling Holy Spirit.” Furthermore, it is through this union that all the blessings of salvation are bestowed upon the “true believer” [Ephesians 1:3,23; 2:4-7].


3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. Some do and some do not. The Apostle Paul tells us why in 1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV. Jesus Christ vividly demonstrate this difference between the effect of the gospel call on the unregenerate man and the regenerate man in the parable of the sower [Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23].


4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. Jesus Christ teaches:

Luke 13:3, [1769 KJV]
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that he has sinned against God. If salvation is completely by grace then repentance must also be the gift of God. Faith and repentance are twin graces.


5. Pardon

A righteous God cannot overlook sin for the wages of sin is death [Romans 6.23]. Man is not a sinner because he sins but man sins because he is a sinner. As such he is subject to the wrath of God [Romans 5:12, Romans 1:18]. The penalty for sin could be paid only by the death of one who was without sin, Jesus Christ [1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 2:24, Philippians 2:8, Romans 8:3]. All who exercise God given repentance obtain forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness implies deliverance from the penalty of sin. It is Jesus Christ who turns us from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God [Acts 26: 18] so that He can deliver us from the wrath to come [1 Thessalonians 1:10].


6. Justification

Justification is a judicial act whereby the unjust sinner is declared righteous in the sight of a just and holy God. John Dagg in his Manuel of Theology [page 265] notes that justification is a higher blessing of grace than pardon. Pardon frees from the penalty that follows sin, justification frees us from the guilt of sin. Justification is by faith alone [Romans 5:1] and that faith itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9].


7. Adoption

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ [Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:1, Romans 8:16,17]. Although we are called the sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, because of our union with Jesus Christ, this does not mean that we occupy the same position relative to God the Father as Jesus Christ [John 10:30-33, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:5-10]. When God the Son took upon Himself the form of man He laid aside His Glory but not His Deity. Though we are called the sons of God by adoption, as noted earlier [Section 2.3.2.1], we will never be divine.


8. Sanctification

The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God. Sanctification has two aspects, positional and progressive. In each case the Holy Spirit is the instrument of sanctification. Positional sanctification, being set apart for God, occurs with regeneration. Progressive sanctification occurs as the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [2 Peter 3:18].


9. Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] As far as I am aware only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).

Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved and has effectually called and sanctified by His spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace but they will certainly persevere in that state until the end and be eternally saved.


10. Assurance of Salvation

If we do not believe that True Believer’s are kept by the power of God and will persevere to the end it is doubtful that we can ever have any assurance of our salvation. Therefore, every passage of Scripture that demonstrates the security of the believer should provide the believer assurance of that security. The first basis for assurance is the testimony of the Word of God. The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That withess is the indwelling Holy Spirit


11. Glorification

God will bring to glory those He has saved through the sacrifice of His Son. Glorification is the final facet on the gem of salvation. Redemption is complete, the sin struggle is over. We who are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17] will be like Him for we will see Him as He is [1 John 3:2].

 

[Allan]

OldRegular's post is my point made in spades.
His post states explicitly that one is saved first then the person believes, that we are first unified with Christ as one still sinfilled, unrepentent, and unbelieving. As seen below:

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem
1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ; they are saved [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

As a side issue here - if the Call is effectual then why does a person need to regenerate to respond?

Anyway, as I stated - the above shows the are unified with Christ but what is most interesting is that it states they are saved! Now watch carefully what the post states. They are saved however they have yet to believe and repent as is seen below:

4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience.

Notice that the previous post states that a regenerate person is saved (of which I agree and do not dispute) but then states in the above that their belief and repentance is actaully only acknowledging that they ALREADY ARE saved.
This flies in the face of scripture and the words of Christ Jesus Himself who said "Believe AND BE saved". The structure shows the order and there should be no question to it.

What you have here is a person who still is unrighteous, sinfilled, and therefore in rebellion to God; benig made unified or made one with Christ. This places sin into Christ because we have become one just as He and the Father are one.

3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. Some do and some do not.

To this no one disputes.

The Apostle Paul tells us why in 1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV.

To this, context is key.
No man of or by himself will attain spiritual knowledge this is why God must come and reveal truth to man.

Jesus Christ vividly demonstrate this difference between the effect of the gospel call on the unregenerate man and the regenerate man in the parable of the sower [Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23].

This has nothing to do regeneration, unless they are proposing that God only slightly regenerates some, some not at all, some He regenerates just enough to be saved, and other He regenerates them to the point they believe and continue in faith.

4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. Jesus Christ teaches:

Luke 13:3, [1769 KJV]
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that he has sinned against God. If salvation is completely by grace then repentance must also be the gift of God. Faith and repentance are twin graces.

This is truth but is also in contradiction to the preceding points given. Man is saved at the regeneration and faith is merely the acknowledgment of that salvation. Thus repentence is not necessary for salvation in accordance to what has already been given but is merely need as visable display that they are saved.

Justification and sanctification is the very nature of what regeneration is. Thus you can not be regenerate and not justified and sanctified and scripture states that both of these are applied to the sinner 'by faith'. Thus one is not regenerate unless one has been justified from all sins penalty and guilt as well as being placed into something other than what you previously were (the world), and that would be into Christ. But sanctification can be unles one is first justified and so cleansed from all unrighteousness. Which is why it is called the NEW Nature whereby OLD things are passed away (removed, seperated from) behold all things have become new (renewed, made again without fault or imperfection - born-again)

 

[Allan]

I think I agree with both of you on this...

There is in fact somthing special about the "call" that makes faith come to existence which is in our view a responsibility but looking back we can see God's total work in us for making this faith possible. I would say I think it is irresitable still (from God's view point)

I do not disagree with what you have stated so far.

but Allen if you would please explain what you know about the Call of God?

It is similar to the reformed position of the 'calling of God'. The only distinction is that where they state God 'only' calls the elect, I state that God calls all men with a calling that will only be responed to by the elect which are those of faith.

Those who will, at the prompting of God, by faith believe are those of His elect. The others, by that same call which asks for faith, will not believe because they desire some other way and thus reject the only way there is and thus are not His elect. So it is still an effectual call because it's purpose is not to save all men to whom it is sent but to save those of faith for whom it was created to draw.

as I recall you believe it is resistable, which from our view point it surely is, along with the loss of salvation (self-deception), and so forth. From God's view I dont think this call (or loss of salvation) is possible. Living with this on my conscience both gives hope of eternal securityand fear of responsibility at the same time making both views useful applicable. (I know you believe in eternal security by the way). -Zach

Yes, I do believe in Eternal Security so please don't continue to add in the "loss of salvation" aspect as though it is part of the discussion. Just a request, and nothing is taken personal :thumbs:

I will state, there are scriptures which state the call is indeed resistable. If you recall an earlier discussion we had on another thread, I showed those verses to you. Prov 1 where it states that He has called and they refused. Or with Jesus words that He would have gathered Isreal to Himself as Hen her chicks but they would not. In Hebrews it even states that when you hear God do not harden your hearts as in the provocation. It is apparent there can be a hardening to His calling. But that does not mean His call was not effectual. The calling of God accomplishes His work and saves every single person that is to be saved. Many are Called but Few are Chosen

 

[Allan]

I think I agree now that it really doesnt make sense to be born again and still be under the sin bondage (this I am looking into shortly), while there must be something to happen (Holy Spirit's work) in order that we might be driven through these events which are all involved the conversion, or faith and direction would be impossible.

I agree.

The problem I have is again from God's view I dont see the Holy Spirit calling someone and failing to bring them through all of these events.

It depends on where emphasis is placed in your understanding of the "calling'.
The calling is the means of bringing people to faith in Christ Jesus. Then there is no problem.

However, If the the calling is that which which can not be denied, then there you have the difference of opinion between the two groups on the mechanics.

As I recall when I went through these things I was blind of what was going on but there was a faith I didnt understand that carried me through this while seeing the impossiblities of myself to meet the satisfaction of Jesus' requirements, while it was me and my choice, there was a deeper desire and determination with fear and assurance that caused me to do what seems to be all of the right things and make choices against my own nature as if I hated it.

Understand here, that all these things transpired at once not over a period of time. As I stated they all transpire in one moment and that 'by faith'. That moment when you believed and were changed is a change in you that both can and is remembered. It where you know you were no longer the same and it is the same place where the brokeness of Godly repentance was expressed by you.

I cant pin-point at what time I actually was born again but it seems as if these things might have rained on me all at one time and continued out. ..snip.. After a few days of going straight home from work and searching I began to see things Jesus taught and this is where it really began.

I think you can and did tell me when you were born again, I just think you have a misunderstanding about what born-again actaully means.

Now, 18 months later, I battle to get as close to God as I was for the first few months.

May I give you a word of advise?
Seek more eanestly to understand and be effective in and through prayer. It is the core of the believers being, it is the reason for our petions being presented before God, as well as how we come to know the will of the Lord our God and His very word that we may walk uprightly before Him.

The more I learn about it, it seems the more I am forced to trust God in other peoples lives because of the impossibility of them doing it without Him..

Praise God.

It really reminds me of John 6:63-66, many turned back but the disciples were drawn and it doesnt say why.. I think that is what was spoken earlier in the chapter about the Fathers drawing.. sorry for the rambling

Actaully, it doesn't state the disciples 'were drawn' here brother, but is shows they, unlike the other disciples, continued in faith, and the answer given was that there was no other place to go because from what they currently understood - 'He' was the Christ/Messiah. (they just still did not know what all that entailed, thus they did not know 'fully' who He was)

Oh don't worry about rambling, usually that is where things sometimes makes the most sense to us

 

[zrs6v4]

It is similar to the reformed position of the 'calling of God'. The only distinction is that where they state God 'only' calls the elect, I state that God calls all men with a calling that will only be responed to by the elect which are those of faith.

What does this call to all look like, is it the preaching of the body of Christ as a result to the great commision or is it the secret drawing ot the Holy Spirit? In a sense yes many are called by God, in my understanding, but its as if none come unless God teams with bride and creates the desire, thirst, hearing with heart, etc... Rev. 22:17... So what I am saying is that the HS is not always working on people, and seems to be misunderstood by inner feelings, but I may of course be wrong

I will state, there are scriptures which state the call is indeed resistable. If you recall an earlier discussion we had on another thread, I showed those verses to you. Prov 1 where it states that He has called and they refused. Or with Jesus words that He would have gathered Isreal to Himself as Hen her chicks but they would not. In Hebrews it even states that when you hear God do not harden your hearts as in the provocation. It is apparent there can be a hardening to His calling. But that does not mean His call was not effectual. The calling of God accomplishes His work and saves every single person that is to be saved. Many are Called but Few are Chosen

This is something I tried to explain from my point of view, which could be wrong:smilewinkgrin: :

Yes in scripture there are many and many more who reject the word of God through the mouth of apostles and prophets, even Jesus Himself. The word holds us all responsible 100% and should give us great fear before God as to move us in and through the word in search of direction, and we shouldnt put the heat on God as if we wont obey the word because we cant due to sin. The truth is that we are to take full responsibility in trying to obey, but understand that without the Spirit it is in fact impossible to please God. It is very easy to fall to one side and unknowingly put the blame on God as if He is supposed to make you obey, while on the other side we can try to do to much without relying on God, when in balance we are trying fully while relying fully on God in and through His word. So my point is yes we reject and yes it is our fault, but on the flip side we always reject God without God's Spirit moving us, but it in no way is God required to give us mercy in our walks. The good news is that He is a merciful loving God who does not fail us.

So yes many are called by the church (22:3 he sent sevants to call). v14, many are called (by servants) few are chosen (by the king).

Proverbs 1 seems to me to be a chapter to our responsibility, to turn and be wise. Because who knows if God is secretly moving or not in someone or some event while its occuring? This is faith, by doing it fully in reliance upon God to be moving as promised. I am totally against any feeling of God by the way, its dangerous. I can only walk by faith with reliance upon God making things fall into place as His will best requires, whether I see them, like them, or whatever. But at the same time this must be done out of the right heart and not to expecting of God to do things my way and for my liking. This is a faith of contentment, love, and fear. I would agree with the Proverb for me personally that the beginning of knowledge and wisdom is fear of the Lord in wholly understanding His being, which held me greatly accountable, sinful in every way before Him, and I wouldnt go far to say it changed my life and committed me to Him forever. IOW- it caused repentance somehow for many reasons and shortly after the repentance was fleshed out from its inner work of the heart. As blind as I was (and still am) I just cannot say that the things that caused me to make all of those decisions didnt spring from my knowledge, because I knew nothing of wisdom or much about the bible for that matter. There is no way I taught or anyone else taught me what to do in any of my choices at conversion in the sense of producing wise choices. I have to ask myself, why did I have such a burning desire from the first time I encountered God in His word in the sense to hear and obey Him with honor and love for the cross, while I have met and tried to help many people who just dont get it or know what to do while wanting it? The truth is that my prayer is for God to guide them as He did me. So this is why I say that I didnt just make a lucky decision of exercising faith (and many other reactions to God) while they didnt, because none of us understand it at the time, I dont think. I want to say it was like God guided me through faith somehow as continues to do so and the faith must have been from God.


so again from our lense this must be a fearful thing 1:7, and must give our all to God, which is our responsibility.

But my next question: God is omnipresent, so He is before all men right now, do you think He waits for people to believe or do you think He is the one that makes known to us our responsibility and need for savior due to sin disease as a result producing much fear? IOW- in the midst of preaching many hear, but few see thinggs in the way Proverbs 1 puts it, so is that all on the man or is that God choosing that person?

 

[zrs6v4]

I agree.

I think you can and did tell me when you were born again, I just think you have a misunderstanding about what born-again actaully means.

I didnt mean to come across in an unclear way as I do many times. I understand that being born again is a complete change in life and is unmistakable. I would say the highlight of my life was that time. While I was in the most lowly, blind, and sinful part of my life, God changed everything and immediatly was one of the closest and most intimate times with God. I just dont remember a date or cant pinpoint the 2-4 week span the exact time where I was saved, or if I was born again before I was saved, or what.... When I look back in that window of time I see a lot of events and things I read in the bible happen to me in the way the bible says they are to happen, and its almost scary....

I agree.
May I give you a word of advise?
Seek more eanestly to understand and be effective in and through prayer. It is the core of the believers being, it is the reason for our petions being presented before God, as well as how we come to know the will of the Lord our God and His very word that we may walk uprightly before Him.

I think that is great advice and I need the reminder because my prayer life isnt as strong as it was before. And I am with you that it is a key essential to the life. Thanks

I agree.
Actaully, it doesn't state the disciples 'were drawn' here brother, but is shows they, unlike the other disciples, continued in faith, and the answer given was that there was no other place to go because from what they currently understood - 'He' was the Christ/Messiah. (they just still did not know what all that entailed, thus they did not know 'fully' who He was)

Oh don't worry about rambling, usually that is where things sometimes makes the most sense to us

I see the twelve disciples close with Jesus and i see crowds of other disciples (not main people of the bible) present. I see Jesus giving these deep impossibilities that are hard to do "to be a follower". It seems like as Jesus went and the more He taught people just began to fall away due to struggles, false faith, wrong intentions, etc... The devil was plucking these things from their hearts more and more as Jesus taught and I wouldnt go far as to say many disciples proved to be false even with good intentions.. But the 11 stayed faithful up until the climax when God let Judas go from His hand to do the evil work. Judas of course never having true faith, but I think God caused Him to stay for His purpose (proverbs 16:4). So anyways back to John 6, Jesus gave a very hard thing to accept. This was that they couldnt do anything without God giving it. Then in verse 65 the climax "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless granted by the Father". Then many were probably like, crap I am going to quit wasting my time when I may make it to the end and find out "I have recieved nothing" . In other words they had no true faith, intentions for self, and other common issues. So many gave up and quit pretending to believe as Jesus already knew who they were, vs 64. So I think in this respect we agree as Ive talked it out.

But the difference is on the flip side- True faith doesnt run from impossibilities such as being one of the few chosen or that God must draw us to be chosen making my choice invalid. But something inside despite all of the impossibilities keeps driving me forward and telling me to never give up even if the odds are 100/1 against me. This is not only a sign of faith, but a sign of faith to accepting that God must do a full work to make this possible. here is an anology>

A man who goes forward in church and professes faith in Christ lives a solid life as a Christian for a few months, and then reads "No one can come to the Father unless He is drawn" or "The flesh is of no avail". This causes the man to say to himself, "wow, I cant be of God unless He chose me so this is a waste of time" and he quits his Christian life and never goes to church anymore. (Im not getting into how to treat that situation by the way).

 

[Allan]

I'll respond to your posts tomorrow Zach. Not enough time tonight. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

Allan

In your unbridled desire to dump on anything I post you missed the message I was trying to get across. Now you may disagree with what I say but at least consider that I made the following introductory statement:

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

This has nothing to do regeneration, unless they are proposing that God only slightly regenerates some, some not at all, some He regenerates just enough to be saved, and other He regenerates them to the point they believe and continue in faith.

In your unbridled desire to dump on anything I post you give a completely asinine eisegesis of the parable of the sower. It is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Jesus Christ that only one of the four was regenerated, born again, saved.

Matthew 13:18-23
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

John Gill's exegesis of the above passage should enlighten you unless you are like those Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 13:11-15.

Ver. 18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. That is, the interpretation of the parable; for they had heard the parable before, and had desired an explanation of it; which, though not mentioned by Matthew, is, by the other evangelists, Mr 4:10, Lu 8:9 and since it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, therefore Christ calls upon them to attend unto, and hear, so as to understand the spiritual meaning of this parable. Mark relates, that he moreover said to his disciples at this time, "know ye not this parable?" Do ye not understand the meaning of it, so easy to be taken in? them as it were reproving for their dulness of hearing, notwithstanding the grace given them, and the advantages they enjoyed: "how then will ye know all parables?" all that he had delivered, or was about to deliver at this time, or should hereafter; which were of more difficult interpretation, and not so easy to be understood as this.

Ver. 19. When anyone heareth the word of the kingdom, &c.] Hence it appears, that by the "seed" in the parable is meant the Gospel, called the "word of the kingdom": because it treats of the king Messiah, of his person, office, and grace; and of his kingdom, and the administration of it by him, under the present dispensation; of the kingdom of grace saints enjoy now, and of the kingdom of heaven they shall enter into hereafter, through the grace and righteousness of Christ. Now such a hearer of this word is here described, who hears it accidentally, and only externally; hears the sound of it with his ears,

and understandeth it not with his heart. He is one that is careless and inattentive, negligent and forgetful; has some slight notions of things as he hears, but these pass away as they come; his affections are not at all touched, nor his judgment informed by them, but remains as stupid, and as unconcerned as ever; his heart is not opened to attend to, and receive the word, but continues hard and obdurate; and is like the common and beaten road, that is trodden down by everyone, and is not susceptible of the seed, that falls upon it.

Then cometh the wicked one, Satan, the devil, Mr 4:15, Lu 8:12 who is, by way of eminency, so called, being the first creature that became wicked, and the worst that is so; who is entirely and immutably wicked; whose whole work and employment lies in wickedness; and who, was the original cause of the wickedness that is among men, and which he is continually instigating and promoting: so the Jews frequently call {q} Samael, by whom they mean the devil, Samael, evdh, "the wicked". This evil spirit, as soon as ever he observes one hearing the word, especially that has not been used to attend, comes immediately, and, as he is hearing,

catcheth away that which is sown in his heart: not the grace of God, which being once implanted in the heart, can never be taken away by Satan; but the word which was sown, not in his understanding, in a spiritual sense, nor even in his affections, so as to love it, delight, and take pleasure in it; much less in his heart, so as to become the engrafted word able to save, or so as to believe in it, and in Christ revealed by it; but in his memory, and that but very slightly neither; for the heart sometimes means the memory; see Lu 2:51. Besides, the word only fell "upon", not "into" his heart, as into the good ground, as the metaphor in the parable shows; and it made no impression, nor was it inwardly received, but as soon as ever dropped, was "catched" away by the enemy; not by frightening him out of it, by persecution, as the stony ground hearer; nor by filling the mind with worldly cares, as the thorny ground hearer; but by various suggestions and temptations, darting in thoughts, presenting objects, and so diverted his mind from the word, and fixed his attention elsewhere; which is done at once, at an unawares, secretly, and without any notice of the person himself; so that the word is entirely lost to him, and he does not so much as remember the least thing he has been hearing:

this is he which receiveth the seed by the way side; such an hearer is comparable to such ground, on whom the word has no more effect, than seed sown upon a common beaten path.


Ver. 20. But he that receiveth the seed into stony places, &c. Such a hearer, who is like to the stony ground on which the seed fell, is one that is not an accidental hearer of the word, as the former, but a settled constant hearer of it; and not one that is careless and negligent, but diligent and attentive, and has some understanding of what he hears;

the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it: he is one that not only constantly attends upon it, but he receives it; he gives an assent to it, he believes in it historically, makes a profession of his faith in it, and holds it for a while, being under some convictions of the truth of it: and having some speculative notions of it, and light in his understanding and judgment in it, he has some flashes of natural affection for it, and delivers some outward expressions of pleasure and delight in it, like Herod, and the hearers of John the Baptist; but has no heart work, and so is like to the rock in stony ground; the natural hardness of his heart continues, it remains unbroken by the word, without any true sense of sin, and repentance for it, and destitute of spiritual life, and of true faith, love, and joy: hence, as his profession is taken up in haste, immediately, upon a flash of affection, and a little head knowledge, it does not last long, nor prove honourable.

Ver. 21. Yet hath he not root in himself, &c. Nor in Christ; the word is not rooted in him, nor has he the root of the matter, or the truth of grace in him:

but dureth for a while; a hearer of the word, a professor of religion, showing some outward respect to the word, and to the preachers of it:

for when tribulation or persecution ariseth, because of the word; which is often the case, and must be expected by those who embrace the Gospel, profess the name of Christ, and are willing to live godly in him. Tribulation may intend some lesser and lighter troubles for the sake of Christ, and his Gospel; such as the revilings and reproaches of men, loss of character, and trade, &c. and persecution may design something more public and vehement; such as confiscation of goods, imprisonment, and danger of life, the most exquisite tortures, and death in the most cruel form and shape; things very disagreeable to flesh and blood, and which cannot be endured, and submitted to, by persons without a principle of grace, by one that has no root in himself. Luke calls this a time "of temptation", or trial, as it is either way, both by private troubles, and more public persecutions: these try men's principles and professions, and whether the truth of grace is in them or not; and where it is not in any person,

by and by he is offended; at the cross; he shrinks back from it, does not care to take it up, and follow Christ; but drops his religion, and the profession of it; apostatises, falls away, and comes to nothing.