Salvation understanding and Regeneration question

[OldRegular]

If some of you people who have a burr under your saddle would ponder my introductory remarks you might decide to take that burr out.

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ.

 

[EdSutton]

I would also suggest this also questions my salvation, or any other, should one not agree with your position.

And since I do not agree that only one of the four groups were saved in this passage in question, I am one who definitely "is offended".

Then tell me which of the four are you?

One of those in who received the seed, the word of the kingdom, or as Luke phrases it, the Word of God, hence has the new birth. (Lk. 8:11; I Pet. 1:23)

Neither is the 'Statement of Faith' which you quoted binding on any Baptist (And I'm virtually certain it is not binding on any "Southern Baptist" to my knowledge!) anywhere that I'm aware of.

I have never said the 'Statement of Faith' is binding on anyone. I said the Abstract of Principles of the Southern Seminary was binding on the faculty!

FTR, what you quoted from (or composed, as I now believe the case to be) in posts # 12, 19, 20, 21, 22, & 23 is not the Abstract of Principles, nor did you mention the Abstract of Principles before on this thread. I do not know where you may have mentioned it elsewhere, nor will I take the time to search to see.

Who put the burr under your saddle? :laugh:Get your facts straight!:laugh:

No one put any burr under my saddle. I just happen to not agree with what you are putting forth in the six cited posts. The Bible clearly says that salvation is based on one believing in Ac. 16:31. John 3:8-18 clearly says that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (or the noun faith, in other places) is the basis for salvation or everlasting life, as also do Mk. 16:16; Lk. 7:50; 8:12; 18:42; Jn. 3:36; 5:24; 6:47; Rom. 10:9 and Eph. 2:8 among others.

No place of which I am aware does the Scripture ever say that salvation is the basis for believing, or in theological terms, that regeneration precedes (or produces) faith, the theology of OldRegular notwithstanding.

Ed

 

[zrs6v4]

One of those in who received the seed, the word of the kingdom, hence has the new birth.Ed

I would like to say that I used to understand it in the way you explain that those who recieve the word are born again (at least 2-3 of the 4). I do hold an opinion that the only born-again believer is the 4th seed. Since this subject was brought up, would you mind kindly stating why you believe otherwise and which of the seeds are actually saved?

here is why I think #4 was the only born again believer-

1- only one producing fruit. I derive this point from Matt 7:15-19

2- the reason the first three didn't produce fruit or believe rightly is because they didnt understand it, which I believe is where God opens hearts > Matt.13:19 vs 13:14-15 (also plays in with Mathew 11:25-30). many can hear but few understand unless granted by the Father.

3- The first three seeds are unfruitful, world lovers over God (1 John 2:16), and again due to lack of understanding.

4- The fourth seed is fruitful, good soil (God working in heart), due to good soil He understands the word thats been given and accepts it.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular

Originally Posted by EdSutton
Neither is the 'Statement of Faith' which you quoted binding on any Baptist (And I'm virtually certain it is not binding on any "Southern Baptist" to my knowledge!) anywhere that I'm aware of.

I have never said the 'Statement of Faith' is binding on anyone. I said the Abstract of Principles of the Southern Seminary was binding on the faculty!

Originally Posted by EdSutton
FTR, what you quoted from (or composed, as I now believe the case to be) in posts # 12, 19, 20, 21, 22, & 23 is not the Abstract of Principles, nor did you mention the Abstract of Principles before on this thread. I do not know where you may have mentioned it elsewhere, nor will I take the time to search to see.

In post #12 I mentioned the 1677/1689 Baptist Confession of Faith as follows

9. Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

"The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] As far as I am aware only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, [whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality].

Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved and has effectually called and sanctified by His spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace but they will certainly persevere in that state until the end and be eternally saved."

The Southern Baptists have a Statement of Faith which has nothing to do with the above Confession and is not binding on anyone.

In post #19 I reposted the Intro to my post # 12 [also in post #41] which says nothing about Statement of Faith or Confession of Faith. In post #’s 20, 21, 22, 23 I presented comments from John Gill’s Commentary. They certainly are not binding on anyone. So what’s your beef?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular

Originally Posted by EdSutton
I would also suggest this also questions my salvation, or any other, should one not agree with your position.

And since I do not agree that only one of the four groups were saved in this passage in question, I am one who definitely "is offended".

Then tell me which of the four are you?

Originally Posted by EdSutton

One of those in who received the seed, the word of the kingdom, or as Luke phrases it, the Word of God, hence has the new birth. (Lk. 8:11; I Pet. 1:23)

If you are offended answer my question!

 

[EdSutton]

If you are offended answer my question!

What I am offended by is your initial assumption, namely that someone who does not accept the interpretation you offered is not a saved individual. AND I quote your exact words:

It is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Jesus Christ that only one of the four was regenerated, born again, saved.

And I am also offended that multiple 'shots' in a minimum of seven posts (by count) were directed at another poster, for not agreeing with your stated position.

For the sake of argument (These all may or may not be any fact.), let us assume that you are a very mature Christian and I am only a child in my understanding of Scripture. Your responses did, in fact, offend me. And since I 'am offended' by the response, what do you say to this particular passage of Scripture.

Matthew 18

Who Is the Greatest?

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

Jesus Warns of Offenses

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!” (Mt. 18:1-8 - NKJV, cp. Mk. 9:42; Lk. 17:1-2)

Seems clear enought to me, however, considering I am one who of the "little ones who believe in Me" as Jesus put it.

I will also add that I am offended when I see so many Christians who wanna' to start a "tare pullin' business" and which profession Jesus said was specifically restricted to angels. (Mt. 13:24-30, 36-43)

And I am offended when I see so many Christians who want to usurp the role of Satan in accusing other Christians of all sorts of things. (Rev. 12:10)

On another thread, only yesterday, I made this remark.

Personally, I would note that I seem to see far more individuals who are more interested in examining others, than in examining themselves.

Strange thing is, I do not see a single verse that says we are to examine another, anywhere in Scripture, at least not in my Bible. Did I miss the verse that says this, somewhere??

I see no need to 'answer your question' in the sense you are asking. My own post # 42 states that Scripture declares one who has believed in Jesus, has everlasting life. I have declared that I am such an one. I do know (not 'hope') that I have eternal life. (I Jn. 5:8-13) God said it; that settles it!

There is no such place in Scripture spoken of as the bema of EdSutton, just as there is no such object as the OldRegular's book of life. Nor is there any "book of John Gill" in Scripture, either.

Why try to create such abominations as all these would be?

Incidentally, the BF&M is 'binding' on all Seminary teachers and missionaries of SBC entities, and also on some other SBC employees, as well. In addition, 'the Abstract of Principles' is also 'binding' on Southeastern and Southern Seminaries, although the 'A/P' is not binding in any manner on Southwest, Midwest, New Orleans, or Golden Gate SBC Seminaries. The 1672/1689 confessions are in no way binding on the SBC.

Ed

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by Ed Sutton
What I am offended by is your initial assumption, namely that someone who does not accept the interpretation you offered is not a saved individual. AND I quote your exact words:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
It is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Jesus Christ that only one of the four was regenerated, born again, saved.

It should be obvious because of the explanation of Jesus Christ concerning the parable. I would expect those with knowledge of Jesus Christ should be able to comprehend His words. So don’t blame me blame Scripture. I use the explanation from Luke because it is more consise.

Luke 8:11-15, KJV
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Originally Posted by EdSutton
Personally, I would note that I seem to see far more individuals who are more interested in examining others, than in examining themselves.

Strange thing is, I do not see a single verse that says we are to examine another, anywhere in Scripture, at least not in my Bible. Did I miss the verse that says this, somewhere??

Yes you did Ed. The Bible is replete with Scripture that tell us we are to examine certain teachers or teachings.

Romans 16:17, 18 KJV
17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


Matthew 24:4, 5 KJV
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Acts 17:10-12 KJV
10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


Titus 1:9-15 KJV
9. Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
12* One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.


Titus 2:14, 15 KJV
14* Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15* These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


Titus 2:9-11 KJV
9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.


1John 4:1 KJV
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


2 John 9-11 KJV
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[OldRegular]

There is no such place in Scripture spoken of as the bema of EdSutton, just as there is no such object as the OldRegular's book of life. Nor is there any "book of John Gill" in Scripture, either.

Why try to create such abominations as all these would be?Ed

This is a Christian debate Forum Ed. It is not an abomination to have an opinion and to use Scripture to support that opinion. Furthermore, since I do not claim to be the fount of all Scriptural knowledge I am not ashamed to use the opinions of those I believe to be reliable such as John Gill.

I have created no abominations and talk about shots: that is one. Examine your own self and see if your other posts are without shots. Also since you accuse me of taking shots at Allan do the same for him.