Salvation

[Clint Kritzer]

The principles of this Letter, though historic, are far more encompassing than confronting the threat of Judaism.

This is why Paul uses Abraham, a pre-Law figure in his example of Galatians 3&4. Genesis 15:1-6 shows Abram as receiving the Promise with no acts of his own.

When Abraham and Sarah try to use "works" to attain the Promise, Ishmael is the result, the son of the slave woman, Hagar. They lapsed from faith. The Promise was fulfilled through Isaac, the son of the wife, years after the Promise was made in Genesis 15.

None of these figures were under Mosaic Law. That is the power of Paul's allegory.

 

[Eladar]

Once someone begins to believe and teach that Grace is accomplished by faith plus something or faith minus something, they are a legalist. They are attatching a sign to the empty Cross that says, "Not Quite Enough."

I guess the real question is what kind of faith is needed.

Actions in themselves do not save, but they do reveal the heart. Therefore actions do matter, but in saying that some would argue that this proclaims salvation by works.

I guess God's people will understand, while to others what I am talking about is foolishness.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Tuor: Actions in themselves do not save, but they do reveal the heart.

Exactly. Salvation, Grace, the receiving of the Promise or whatever terminology suits you, occurs BEFORE any acts. Thus, the thief on the Cross, with no action, was saved as securely as any long time convert.

 

[Eladar]

Yes this is true, but most of us don't die within hours of our acceptance of Christ. If we have the kind of faith that saves, then it will result in actions. If one does not show these actions, then it can be deduced that such a person will probably not be found righteous on the day of the Lord.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Again, you are correct. This is the intention of James 2, at least for those of us who hold to the belief that Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
Again, you are correct. This is the intention of James 2, at least for those of us who hold to the belief that Scripture does not contradict itself.

So if someone disagrees with you about James 2, they therefore believe scripture contradicts itself? That doesn't follow.

Those who believe James meant what he said (i.e. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.") do not have a contradiction with other scripture. Eph 2:8-9 indeed affirms that we are saved by grace, through faith. It even says "not of works", but this can been seen as in *contrast* to faith - i.e. works only. In other words, Eph 2:8-9 doesn't say faith only, it simply says faith is required, and it's not of works only. That would not be in contradiction to James 2. Same with Rom 9:30-33, same with Gal 5:6, etc. These passages don't teach "faith only", they teach faith is required and that "works only" doesn't cut it. "Faith only" contradicts the plain meaning of James 2, and a new meaning of James 2 (e.g. works are the 'evidence' or similar) is required. I think if James meant works was evidence of justification, rather than needed with faith for justification, he would have simply said it.

 

[Eladar]

I think if James meant works was evidence of justification, rather than needed with faith for justification, he would have simply said it.

Yet the net result of either view comes out to be the same. Therefore I'd say that to say that these are two different views is quibbling. For all practical purposes, both views say the exact same thing.

Both views result in the exact same behavior for the exact same reason.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Brian, what version are you using for Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

You may also want to address the citing of Genesis 15:6 in Paul's argument in Galatians 3:6.

[ July 05, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Hi Clint,

If I may, I would like to take a crack at it.

"Not by works" as far as scholars have studied shows that Paul is refering to the Mosaic works of the law. Slaughtering sheep, cutting the heads off of doves, and so on.

"You may also want to address the citing of Genesis 15:6 in Paul's argument in Galatians 3:6."

"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness"

"Even as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness"

I'm not sure how you are using these two verses, but it you are trying to use them to claim that only faith is required in a Christians life, I believe you are using them to the exclusion of the rest of scripture, which is in violation to 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told that we cannot interpert scripture privately- or exclusively without considering all the Bible says.

While faith is required for salvation, and is the first step in our restoration to a relationship with God, Jesus Christ is clear through the scriptures of many other important steps a Christian must take through faith. He didn't say, only if you want to, don't worry about it if its too tough, you don't have to pick up your cross.

Faith: St. Luke 17:1-10
He gave us Holy Communion: Matthew 26:17-35, John 6:47-58
He gave us baptism: Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Pet. 3:21

And scriptures are clear that faith and works are intertwined. A Christian without showing the fruit of the Spirit is no Christian at all.

Matthew 18:23-35
19:16-30
20: 1-16
25:31-46

Romans 5:1-11
6:1-4
8:1-17

1 Corinthians 13:1-3

There are many more verses, but here are a few.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
Brian, what version are you using for Ephesians?

Take your pick. Read again what I said - the passage doesn't say works aren't necessary, it simply says faith is - and it doesn't say faith *only*. By saying "not of works", it's saying you can't get salvation by works. The passage doesn't say works aren't part of it, it only says works (in contrast to faith, without faith) don't cut it. No one can "work" their way into heaven - that's what the passage in Eph is saying. But no one can "faith" their way into heaven either - that's what the passage in James in saying. These passages don't contradict, the mesh wonderfully.

You may also want to address the citing of Genesis 15:6 in Paul's argument in Galatians 3:6.

What's to address? Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness. No problem. But what perfected his faith? James 2 tells us that also Abraham's works justified him (not just "provided evidence of justification"). His works were combined "with" his faith (and were not just evidence after the fact) to perfect his faith. Do you believe that?

Originally posted by Tuor:
Yet the net result of either view comes out to be the same. Therefore I'd say that to say that these are two different views is quibbling. For all practical purposes, both views say the exact same thing.

Both views result in the exact same behavior for the exact same reason.

Perhaps you are right. Amazing how it can still generate such debate.

 

[Yelsew]

How can anything that we do, with the exception of believing in God, justify us?

The only thing that does justify us is what Deity has done for us. It is Jesus' shed blood that justifies us before the Father. Everything we do is as filthy rags from God's viewpoint. So just get the idea out of your mind that any works we do, whether prior to belief or after belief, are of any value toward our salvation. They are not! No works regardless of when or why can save us.

No sin save for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can prevent us from being saved!

Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved! IT IS THAT SIMPLE!

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Adam: "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness"

"Even as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness"

I'm not sure how you are using these two verses, but it you are trying to use them to claim that only faith is required in a Christians life, I believe you are using them to the exclusion of the rest of scripture, which is in violation to 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told that we cannot interpert scripture privately- or exclusively without considering all the Bible says.

The issue at hand is not the Christian life. It is the issue of salvation and how it is initially attained.

Brian: What's to address? Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness. No problem. But what perfected his faith? James 2 tells us that also Abraham's works justified him (not just "provided evidence of justification"). His works were combined "with" his faith (and were not just evidence after the fact) to perfect his faith. Do you believe that?

Again, we are not discussing the Christian walk AFTER conversion but rather what constitutes conversion.

We are introduced to Abraham (Abram) in Genesis 15. He believes, it is counted to him as righteousness. No acts, no works, no circumcision, no intended sacrificing of Isaac. Just belief. The covenant of circumcision is not introduced until Gensis 17, at least 13 years later (Genesis 16:16, 17:24)

The argument is not mine, gentlemen. It is Paul's.

 

[Brother Adam]

And no one argues that faith isn't the initial starting point. Evenmore so, baptism (in faith) is our entrance point into the new covenantial relationship with God.

Perhaps for the person who knees and accepts Christ and is then promptly hit by a truck and killed, faith, given by God, will be all he needed to display to gain entrance to the kingdom.

However, for most of us that isn't how it works. Through faith in God, in Christ, we must have faith in all he said, and must do all he commands. Our burden is to carry our cross daily.

If I "accept Christ as my Savior" or "have faith in Him" and do not show the fruits of the Spirit- live by the flesh, scripture gives me no assurance of heaven. It may be that I was just giving "lip" or "mind" service to God, and not truly surrendering my life.

It is to this point that more than "faith alone" or the mere acceptance of the faith is needed.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
Brian: What's to address? Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness. No problem. But what perfected his faith? James 2 tells us that also Abraham's works justified him (not just "provided evidence of justification"). His works were combined "with" his faith (and were not just evidence after the fact) to perfect his faith. Do you believe that?

Again, we are not discussing the Christian walk AFTER conversion but rather what constitutes conversion.

Hey, you're the one that brought Gal 3:6 up, and asked me to address it.

We are introduced to Abraham (Abram) in Genesis 15. He believes, it is counted to him as righteousness.

Yes. What's the problem?

No acts, no works, no circumcision, no intended sacrificing of Isaac. Just belief.
...
The argument is not mine, gentlemen. It is Paul's.

"Just belief"? James says "just belief" is dead. He also says even the devils believe. Paul never says faith "only", he simply says not *just* works, and faith is required. Again, James says Abraham's works justified him, combined with and perfecting his faith. The argument is not mine, kind sir, it is James'.

I can take both Paul and James at face value. You appear to be reading a little into Paul, and adjusting what James meant accordingly.

[ July 05, 2003, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Adam: And no one argues that faith isn't the initial starting point.

Those who argue baptismal regeneration do. Look at the opening post of this thread and the quote that was lifted from me. Do you disagree with it?

This is especially significant as those folks also claim that baptism is the covenant sign just as circumcision was for the Jews. Abraham's righteousness was accounted before he did any acts.

The New Covenant is upon our hearts, not in some supposed mystical quality in water.

Do works have a purpose? ABSOLUTELY! They are a manifestation of surrender to the Spirit that is already in us. Works do not bring that conversion upon us (lest any man should boast). Only faith through the hearing of the Gospel (even in the case of Abraham - Galatians 3:8) will accomplish this.

The Christian walk? Yes, deeds are a necessary element. Conversion? Works avail nothing!

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Brian. Are you saved? How did it happen?

Galatians 3:6 is citing Abraham's initial encounter with God.

Was the thief on the cross saved? How did it happen?

[ July 05, 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[neal4christ]

Just a note, faith and belief is more than just simple head knowledge. I don't think anyone here would argue that simple head knowledge is adequate. True faith will produce good works, that is what we were created for. We forget verse 10 in Ephesians 2:

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (NIV)

Good works are not divorced from true faith. However, faith is the kicker, the starting point. Good works are a fruit of true salvation, not the root of true salvation.

God Bless,
Neal

 

[Brother Adam]

"Those who argue baptismal regeneration do. Look at the opening post of this thread and the quote that was lifted from me. Do you disagree with it?"

Unfortunately, you misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church. That is most certianly not a good work.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
Brian. Are you saved? How did it happen?

Your question presupposes salvation is a one-time event. I'm not sure that it is. Again, James says Abraham was justified by his works, implying against a "one time" event.

Galatians 3:6 is citing Abraham's initial encounter with God.

Clint, you have to take all of scripture. James deals *explicitly* with this:

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

James ties the exact quote you're asking about to not some "initial" faith, but his faith perfected by his works. Simple yes/no question: Is James wrong?

Even Luther, Mr. Faith-only himself, saw this problem. Instead of jumping through hoops to get James to work, he opted to dismiss James instead. You may not dismiss James, but you sure are doing a good job of ignoring him.

Was the thief on the cross saved? How did it happen?

Brother Adam basically addressed this above. He said: "Perhaps for the person who knees and accepts Christ and is then promptly hit by a truck and killed, faith, given by God, will be all he needed to display to gain entrance to the kingdom. However, for most of us that isn't how it works. Through faith in God, in Christ, we must have faith in all he said, and must do all he commands. Our burden is to carry our cross daily."

 

[Brother Adam]

You may also point out at this point in history, the theif is still under the Old Covanent and God, until a few hours down the road, still dealt with humanity under the Old Covenant. Even the theif on the cross.