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I agree with this. A much better description of "total depravity" than just the words "Total Depravity".

Personally I think the TULIP thing was a mistake wherever/whenever it originated..

Even if we can approach God before regeneration it is totally at the direction and control of God.
The Aaronic priesthood an example.

 

True but its Much Better!

 

Utilyan I have observed that both the followers of calvin and arminius doctrine demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.
Not many - maybe none - of the calvinists that I have known are characterized by your post.

I think we should overlook the talk when it is eclipse by the walk.

 

What I am pointing out is the implications on the character of God not realized if you don't think it through.

Let me be a Calvinist for a hour attempt to tell you everything you want to hear, and you tell me if I am misrepresenting the position, If I am wrong we'll fix it.

Everyone who is in heaven or will be in heaven is ELECT and chosen by God.

No man has the capacity to make his way into heaven it is solely on the will of God for anyone to get to heaven, God must directly intervene for one to be elect.

All mankind are in active rebellion against God and deserve to go to hell. Since original sin all men are totally evil and any works they do are filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. Man has lost all capacity of spiritual good.

God has chosen a number of people to be saved, the elect and he chose them from the beginning of time.

The Elect has been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, so when God looks at the elect he doesn't see the sinner he sees Christ and his wrath passes over them. Jesus Christ takes the wrath that otherwise would have been on the elect.

Christ's sacrifice is limited to have fully worked on those who are elect, its certainly powerful enough to have worked as much as God wills, but it WILL only work obviously for those who are saved which are the elect.

God's grace cannot be resisted or denied, once a person is elect even chosen before all time, it doesn't matter what this person does or if they backslide at one point they will come into the full regeneration.



Let me know if I am missing something or got it wrong.

 

Well - Yes you have many theological points correct of some/many here at the BB

Not sure what your issue is now.

 

But the fact remains that we received the Spirit by faith. Please hear me out on this.

Paul said in Ephesians "when you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit". Peter said that the Spirit is received upon repentance (which is part of saving faith.) The Samaritan believers in Acts 10 believed before the Holy Spirit came upon them, etc. Jesus said "in the same way the Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him", etc.

By the powerful operation of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the preaching of the Living, Powerful Word of God,

a. God opens our eyes to our sinfulness and depravity,

b. we see our sin as God sees it,

c. Christ crucified is set before us, and

d. we are made thirsty,

e. and we are invited to come drink of the Living Water.

As it is written, The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (Revelation 22:17).

So the thirsty are invited to come and take the water of life (Holy Spirit) without cost. Is this not a call to faith and coming to the fountain of living water (the Father) through the one who gives the Living Water (Jesus) to drink freely of the Living Water (Holy Spirit)

PS. I believe that spiritual death is RELATIONAL SEPERATION FROM GOD. Just as physical death is the seperation of the Spirit and the body.

You can disagree with me, but nothing I am saying goes against the Bible or the DoG.

 

Faith is conceived by the Divine operation of the Holy Spirit planting the seed (Word) in the heart, and a child is born (regeneration). So the work of the Spirit producing faith is the conception and regeneration is the birth. Logically, conception is before birth, though in this sense they (faith and regeneration), are similtaneous

 

Yes I have wondered about that and have had a strong suspicion that there is first a spiritual fertilization/conception and incubation of the Holy Spirit before the second birth.

If this is true I would imagine that there would be no still-borns.

In my own case I came under a great deal of conviction before I closed with Christ.

 

I agree that sometimes seeds are planted that bear crops later, in God's time. But I don't think there is an incubation period between faith and regeneration. Regeneration and faith happen together.

Now here's another point. I don't believe a person is regenerated without being justified. I don't see how one can be brought to spiritual life without first being justified, seeing that the guilt of sin is the cause and reason for our spiritual deadness. therefore the guilt of sin must be removed. And justification is by faith.

If faith is a result of regeneration and justification is by faith, then you have seperated regeneratiin from justification. But how can a person being regenerated precede faith when by faith we are justified, ie the guilt, condemnation, and seperation (from God) of sin is removed by grace THROUGH faith. Therefore, justification must occur concurrently with regeneration, making the biblical order salutus drawn/faith/ justified/ regenerated

 

The only thing that happens in the middle is you get squished. You can defend Calvinism successfully. You can defend Classical Arminianism successfully. Any compromise position runs into obvious contradiction.

 

Thank you for your POV G4M. Some food for thought.

 

James, I mean no disrespect but you are offering an opinion without any exegesis of the text. By doing so you are no better than the criticisms you posted.

 

Hello, False dilemma

 

What I posted was not a compromise position. The point is that the Calvinist order salutus has calling, regeneration, faith, justification, etc. in case you didn't know, what I typed WAS the Classical Arminianism position.

What I am saying is simple if you don't get tripped up in systems.

Spiritual death is relational separation from God.

This seperation is due to the guilt and condemnation of sin.

Justification removes the guilt and condemnation of sin, the sins and trespasses in which we were dead.

Therefore, justification is a necessary requirement to be raised from death to life.

Justification is through FAITH.

Therefore the order should be Predestined, called, faith, with justification, regeneration, initial sanctification, adoption happening concurrently with faith, and growth in sanctification, preservation, and glorification following

 

Maybe you need to brush up on what Classical Arminianism is.

 

Even Satan believes in God.


Matthew 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Atheists and Unbelievers don't perform miracles and cast out demons.

And God would never give that holy power to "unregenerate reprobates".

Do the math.

 

I mostly agree. Total depravity and irresistible grace just happen to be the two points that. true Classical Arminians and Calvinists are 99.5% in agreement on. They definitely do not view the points as 180 degree opposite.