Same song second verse

[HankD]

And this is, of course, the result of a failure to understand what Total Depravity is.

Total Depravity is NOT the blotting out of the Image of God in a person.

Total Depravity is NOT that every lost person is as bad as he/she could be.

Total Depravity is that all of man is depraved and has been affected by the fall. The body of man has been affected by the fall, the soul of man has been affected by the fall, and the spirit of man has been affected by the fall.

There is nothing in the body that is good enough to approach God on its own righteousness.

There is nothing in the soul that is good enough to approach God on its own righteousness.

There is nothing in the spirit that is good enough to approach God on its own righteousness.

I agree with this. A much better description of "total depravity" than just the words "Total Depravity".

Personally I think the TULIP thing was a mistake wherever/whenever it originated..

Even if we can approach God before regeneration it is totally at the direction and control of God.
The Aaronic priesthood an example.

 

[TCassidy]

Personally I think the TULIP thing was a mistake wherever/whenever it originated..

1905. TULIP was formulated as a teaching device in about 1905, when the Rev. Cleland Boyd McAfee used the acronym in a lecture before the Presbyterian Union, meeting in Newark, New Jersey.

I much prefer:

Triple Depravity (body, soul, spirit)
Decisive Selection (the good pleasure of His will)
Particular Atonement (Sufficient for all, efficient only for believers)
Efficacious Grace (God's grace never fails to achieve its intended purpose)
Preservation of the believer (Preserved unto the day of judgment)

The problem is that TDPEP doesn't make a good mnemonic because it doesn't spell anything!

 

[HankD]

1905. TULIP was formulated as a teaching device in about 1905, when the Rev. Cleland Boyd McAfee used the acronym in a lecture before the Presbyterian Union, meeting in Newark, New Jersey.

I much prefer:

Triple Depravity (body, soul, spirit)
Decisive Selection (the good pleasure of His will)
Particular Atonement (Sufficient for all, efficient only for believers)
Efficacious Grace (God's grace never fails to achieve its intended purpose)
Preservation of the believer (Preserved unto the day of judgment)

The problem is that TDPEP doesn't make a good mnemonic because it doesn't spell anything!

True but its Much Better!

 

[HankD]

It teaches God has to murder a mind and force one to change. Also forces a system where God forgives absolutely no one.

If you owe me 1000$ and someone else pays it for you, nothing has been forgiven. Sure its been payed for and you owe nothing. But in no way have you been forgiven.

Deserving hell means you think you deserve to sin against God eternally. The mistake being you think about what you deserve first rather then what God deserves.

There are better ways to convey humility, Calvinism is barbaric and insults God's character.

God has the right to murder everyone so Calvinist expects God to murder a good portion of folks.
God has the right to hate everyone so Calvinist expects God to hate people.
God has the right to steal.....
God has the right to rape.....
God has the right to lie........

How often do I hear a Calvinist say. Oh it is a shock, a total surprise that God would bother to save a horrible wretch like me.......its a complete miracle.

The essence of what they are saying is they are "SURPRISED" Because they expected COMPLETE EVIL response. Shocked and surprised at the partial evil.

That is nothing like the character of Jesus Christ.

Utilyan I have observed that both the followers of calvin and arminius doctrine demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.
Not many - maybe none - of the calvinists that I have known are characterized by your post.

I think we should overlook the talk when it is eclipse by the walk.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan I have observed that both the followers of calvin and arminius doctrine demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.
Not many - maybe none - of the calvinists that I have known are characterized by your post.

I think we should overlook the talk when it is eclipse by the walk.

What I am pointing out is the implications on the character of God not realized if you don't think it through.

Let me be a Calvinist for a hour attempt to tell you everything you want to hear, and you tell me if I am misrepresenting the position, If I am wrong we'll fix it.

Everyone who is in heaven or will be in heaven is ELECT and chosen by God.

No man has the capacity to make his way into heaven it is solely on the will of God for anyone to get to heaven, God must directly intervene for one to be elect.

All mankind are in active rebellion against God and deserve to go to hell. Since original sin all men are totally evil and any works they do are filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. Man has lost all capacity of spiritual good.

God has chosen a number of people to be saved, the elect and he chose them from the beginning of time.

The Elect has been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, so when God looks at the elect he doesn't see the sinner he sees Christ and his wrath passes over them. Jesus Christ takes the wrath that otherwise would have been on the elect.

Christ's sacrifice is limited to have fully worked on those who are elect, its certainly powerful enough to have worked as much as God wills, but it WILL only work obviously for those who are saved which are the elect.

God's grace cannot be resisted or denied, once a person is elect even chosen before all time, it doesn't matter what this person does or if they backslide at one point they will come into the full regeneration.



Let me know if I am missing something or got it wrong.

 

[HankD]

What I am pointing out is the implications on the character of God not realized if you don't think it through.

Let me be a Calvinist for a hour attempt to tell you everything you want to hear, and you tell me if I am misrepresenting the position, If I am wrong we'll fix it.

Everyone who is in heaven or will be in heaven is ELECT and chosen by God.

No man has the capacity to make his way into heaven it is solely on the will of God for anyone to get to heaven, God must directly intervene for one to be elect.

All mankind are in active rebellion against God and deserve to go to hell. Since original sin all men are totally evil and any works they do are filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. Man has lost all capacity of spiritual good.

God has chosen a number of people to be saved, the elect and he chose them from the beginning of time.

The Elect has been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, so when God looks at the elect he doesn't see the sinner he sees Christ and his wrath passes over them. Jesus Christ takes the wrath that otherwise would have been on the elect.

Christ's sacrifice is limited to have fully worked on those who are elect, its certainly powerful enough to have worked as much as God wills, but it WILL only work obviously for those who are saved which are the elect.

God's grace cannot be resisted or denied, once a person is elect even chosen before all time, it doesn't matter what this person does or if they backslide at one point they will come into the full regeneration.



Let me know if I am missing something or got it wrong.

Well - Yes you have many theological points correct of some/many here at the BB

Not sure what your issue is now.

 

[glad4mercy]

Yes. Paul asks them if it was by the works of the law that they received the Holy Spirit or by the hearing of faith? How does one hear? He must have ears to hear. Who has ears to hear? The dead? No. The living. Those who are alive in Christ.

But the fact remains that we received the Spirit by faith. Please hear me out on this.

Paul said in Ephesians "when you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit". Peter said that the Spirit is received upon repentance (which is part of saving faith.) The Samaritan believers in Acts 10 believed before the Holy Spirit came upon them, etc. Jesus said "in the same way the Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him", etc.

By the powerful operation of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the preaching of the Living, Powerful Word of God,

a. God opens our eyes to our sinfulness and depravity,

b. we see our sin as God sees it,

c. Christ crucified is set before us, and

d. we are made thirsty,

e. and we are invited to come drink of the Living Water.

As it is written, The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (Revelation 22:17).

So the thirsty are invited to come and take the water of life (Holy Spirit) without cost. Is this not a call to faith and coming to the fountain of living water (the Father) through the one who gives the Living Water (Jesus) to drink freely of the Living Water (Holy Spirit)

PS. I believe that spiritual death is RELATIONAL SEPERATION FROM GOD. Just as physical death is the seperation of the Spirit and the body.

You can disagree with me, but nothing I am saying goes against the Bible or the DoG.

 

[glad4mercy]

I agree with this. A much better description of "total depravity" than just the words "Total Depravity".

Personally I think the TULIP thing was a mistake wherever/whenever it originated..

Even if we can approach God before regeneration it is totally at the direction and control of God.
The Aaronic priesthood an example.

Faith is conceived by the Divine operation of the Holy Spirit planting the seed (Word) in the heart, and a child is born (regeneration). So the work of the Spirit producing faith is the conception and regeneration is the birth. Logically, conception is before birth, though in this sense they (faith and regeneration), are similtaneous

 

[HankD]

Faith is conceived by the Divine operation of the Holy Spirit planting the seed (Word) in the heart, and a child is born (regeneration). So the work of the Spirit producing faith is the conception and regeneration is the birth. Logically, conception is before birth, though in this sense they (faith and regeneration), are simultaneous

Yes I have wondered about that and have had a strong suspicion that there is first a spiritual fertilization/conception and incubation of the Holy Spirit before the second birth.

If this is true I would imagine that there would be no still-borns.

In my own case I came under a great deal of conviction before I closed with Christ.

 

[glad4mercy]

Yes I have wondered about that and have had a strong suspicion that there is first a spiritual fertilization/conception and incubation of the Holy Spirit before the second birth.

If this is true I would imagine that there would be no still-borns.

In my own case I came under a great deal of conviction before I closed with Christ.

I agree that sometimes seeds are planted that bear crops later, in God's time. But I don't think there is an incubation period between faith and regeneration. Regeneration and faith happen together.

Now here's another point. I don't believe a person is regenerated without being justified. I don't see how one can be brought to spiritual life without first being justified, seeing that the guilt of sin is the cause and reason for our spiritual deadness. therefore the guilt of sin must be removed. And justification is by faith.

If faith is a result of regeneration and justification is by faith, then you have seperated regeneratiin from justification. But how can a person being regenerated precede faith when by faith we are justified, ie the guilt, condemnation, and seperation (from God) of sin is removed by grace THROUGH faith. Therefore, justification must occur concurrently with regeneration, making the biblical order salutus drawn/faith/ justified/ regenerated

 

[Reynolds]

I think that Arminianism and Calvinism are opposite poles of two extremes, and the truth is in the middle. Not because I try to find middle ground, but that is the conclusion I have come to after much study and reflection.

The only thing that happens in the middle is you get squished. You can defend Calvinism successfully. You can defend Classical Arminianism successfully. Any compromise position runs into obvious contradiction.

 

[HankD]

I agree that sometimes seeds are planted that bear crops later, in God's time. But I don't think there is an incubation period between faith and regeneration. Regeneration and faith happen together.

Now here's another point. I don't believe a person is regenerated without being justified. I don't see how one can be brought to spiritual life without first being justified, seeing that the guilt of sin is the cause and reason for our spiritual deadness. therefore the guilt of sin must be removed. And justification is by faith.

If faith is a result of regeneration and justification is by faith, then you have seperated regeneratiin from justification. But how can a person being regenerated precede faith when by faith we are justified, ie the guilt, condemnation, and seperation (from God) of sin is removed by grace THROUGH faith. Therefore, justification must occur concurrently with regeneration, making the biblical order salutus drawn/faith/ justified/ regenerated

Thank you for your POV G4M. Some food for thought.

 

[Reformed]

The single most amazing thing in the Calvinist vs Armenian debate is that they both use the same verses over and over to prove their point. Matt 7:21/23, James 2:14-26, Heb 6:1-4, I John 2, John 6 and to play the trump card they bring in Judas. Now the Calvinists say these verses show "never really saved people". The other side says these people lost their salvation. So the debate never ends. The point is they are both wrong! Since all of these texts speak of works or obedience or faithfulness they cannot be about eternal salvation (which cannot be lost) by grace and grace alone. Both sides are compelled to insert works into their doctrine of grace because they both read the NT as about lost people getting to heaven! But the NT is about the kingdom of the heavens (it opens with that) and God calling a people out of the redeemed to serve with the Son as heirs in the future literal kingdom.

James, I mean no disrespect but you are offering an opinion without any exegesis of the text. By doing so you are no better than the criticisms you posted.

 

[JonShaff]

I see the five points of TULIP or the five points of DAISY as being an "either/or" proposition.

You either believe in Total Depravity or you don't. (It's like being with child. You either are or you aren't. There is no middle ground.)

You either believe in Unconditional Election or you don't.

And so on.

And the same with DAISY.

Hello, False dilemma

 

[glad4mercy]

The only thing that happens in the middle is you get squished. You can defend Calvinism successfully. You can defend Classical Arminianism successfully. Any compromise position runs into obvious contradiction.

What I posted was not a compromise position. The point is that the Calvinist order salutus has calling, regeneration, faith, justification, etc. in case you didn't know, what I typed WAS the Classical Arminianism position.

What I am saying is simple if you don't get tripped up in systems.

Spiritual death is relational separation from God.

This seperation is due to the guilt and condemnation of sin.

Justification removes the guilt and condemnation of sin, the sins and trespasses in which we were dead.

Therefore, justification is a necessary requirement to be raised from death to life.

Justification is through FAITH.

Therefore the order should be Predestined, called, faith, with justification, regeneration, initial sanctification, adoption happening concurrently with faith, and growth in sanctification, preservation, and glorification following

 

[TCassidy]

Therefore the order should be Predestined, called, faith,

So, lost people have faith? Unbelieving believers?

 

[Reynolds]

What I posted was not a compromise position. The point is that the Calvinist order salutus has calling, regeneration, faith, justification, etc. in case you didn't know, what I typed WAS the Classical Arminianism position.

Maybe you need to brush up on what Classical Arminianism is.

 

[utilyan]

So, lost people have faith? Unbelieving believers?

Even Satan believes in God.


Matthew 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Atheists and Unbelievers don't perform miracles and cast out demons.

And God would never give that holy power to "unregenerate reprobates".

Do the math.

 

[Reynolds]

I see the five points of TULIP or the five points of DAISY as being an "either/or" proposition.

You either believe in Total Depravity or you don't. (It's like being with child. You either are or you aren't. There is no middle ground.)

You either believe in Unconditional Election or you don't.

And so on.

And the same with DAISY.

I mostly agree. Total depravity and irresistible grace just happen to be the two points that. true Classical Arminians and Calvinists are 99.5% in agreement on. They definitely do not view the points as 180 degree opposite.

 

[TCassidy]

Even Satan believes in God.

Believing in God is not faith in the shed blood of Christ to cleanse us from all sin. That is the whole point of James 2:19.