Same song second verse

[James Donovan]

The single most amazing thing in the Calvinist vs Armenian debate is that they both use the same verses over and over to prove their point. Matt 7:21/23, James 2:14-26, Heb 6:1-4, I John 2, John 6 and to play the trump card they bring in Judas. Now the Calvinists say these verses show "never really saved people". The other side says these people lost their salvation. So the debate never ends. The point is they are both wrong! Since all of these texts speak of works or obedience or faithfulness they cannot be about eternal salvation (which cannot be lost) by grace and grace alone. Both sides are compelled to insert works into their doctrine of grace because they both read the NT as about lost people getting to heaven! But the NT is about the kingdom of the heavens (it opens with that) and God calling a people out of the redeemed to serve with the Son as heirs in the future literal kingdom.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, and you are still way off key!

 

[James Donovan]

Yes, and you are still way off key!

Bible written to saved people. By saved people. Not one verse in NT written to a "never really saved " person. And we wonder why American churches are so weak with the doctrines of Lordship confusion.

 

[TCassidy]

Bible written to saved people. By saved people. Not one verse in NT written to a "never really saved " person. And we wonder why American churches are so weak with the doctrines of Lordship confusion.

Total non-sequitur.

 

[Iconoclast]

Bible written to saved people. By saved people. Not one verse in NT written to a "never really saved " person. And we wonder why American churches are so weak with the doctrines of Lordship confusion.

No one wonders any such thing, but you. You are not addressing the scriptures or biblical teaching.

 

[HankD]

Yes, I call it a ping-pong debate, one of many here at the BB.

The reason being is that there is a membership dynamic here as people come and go the debates are renewed on a cyclical basis,
Once in a great while a new slant (or spin) is added to the standard repertoires of arguments.

Myself - I am honestly (really) undecided after over 50 years of my walk with the LORD or His walk with me - you decide

 

[Iconoclast]

Bible written to saved people. By saved people. Not one verse in NT written to a "never really saved " person. And we wonder why American churches are so weak with the doctrines of Lordship confusion.

Are you saying no unsaved professor has ever read the bible?
When the bible says take heed to yourself...examine yourself...are you saying that when a bull dyke methodist minister reads these passages they are not warnings written to them urging repentance?

 

[glad4mercy]

Yes, I call it a ping-pong debate, one of many here at the BB.

The reason being is that there is a membership dynamic here as people come and go the debates are renewed on a cyclical basis,
Once in a great while a new slant (or spin) is added to the standard repertoires of arguments.

Myself - I am honestly (really) undecided after over 50 years of my walk with the LORD or His walk with me - you decide

I think that Arminianism and Calvinism are opposite poles of two extremes, and the truth is in the middle. Not because I try to find middle ground, but that is the conclusion I have come to after much study and reflection.

 

[HankD]

I think that Arminianism and Calvinism are opposite poles of two extremes, and the truth is in the middle. Not because I try to find middle ground, but that is the conclusion I have come to after much study and reflection.

yes and you will be labeled "mugwump" as I have been but I'm OK with that.

 

[glad4mercy]

yes and you will be labeled "mugwump" as I have been but I'm OK with that.

For what? Choosing to adhere to Scripture alone instead of choosing a system of Theology?

 

[TCassidy]

I see the five points of TULIP or the five points of DAISY as being an "either/or" proposition.

You either believe in Total Depravity or you don't. (It's like being with child. You either are or you aren't. There is no middle ground.)

You either believe in Unconditional Election or you don't.

And so on.

And the same with DAISY.

 

[TCassidy]

For what? Choosing to adhere to Scripture alone instead of choosing a system of Theology?

I choose a system of theology that is based on and true to the bible.

 

[glad4mercy]

I see the five points of TULIP or the five points of DAISY as being an "either/or" proposition.

You either believe in Total Depravity or you don't. (It's like being with child. You either are or you aren't. There is no middle ground.)

You either believe in Unconditional Election or you don't.

And so on.

And the same with DAISY.

I don't need to accept TULIP or DAISY.

a. I believe that Jesus Christ came to save sinners through His Death, Resurrection, and High Priestly ministry.
b .I believe that we MUST REPENT and BELIEVE to be saved.
c. I believe that we are morally unable to repent and believe apart from a powerful act of God's Grace.
d. I believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe.
e. I believe that those who believe the Gospel do so because of the ministry of the Holy Spirit which accompanies the Word.
f. I believe the Spirit can be resisted, as stated numerous places in the Scriptures
i. I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed to Him
j. I believe that God will complete the good work that He began in us.

Do you want to refute anything I've said WITH SCRIPTURE?

And please provide scriptural support for a. Irresistable Grace b. Jesus only died for the Elect. Not Extrapolutions, but clear Scripture. I can accept Human inability, and I believe that lives that are risen with and in Christ are safe. As far as Unconditional Election, I don't know God's basis for election, and don't pretend to, but I do know that SALVATION Is Conditional. Repent and believe and you will be saved

 

[glad4mercy]

I choose a system of theology that is based on and true to the bible.

I have not found verses on a. irresistible grace or b. Jesus only died for the elect. I have found verses that teach that He died for the Elect, but nothing that says ONLY the Elect.

Human inability, check
Unconditional election. I do not pretend to know the basis of God's election, but I do know that SALVATION has conditions of FAITH and REPENTANCE.
Perserverance- I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed to Him, He will complete the work He begun in me, and He is able to keep my from falling, I am kept by the power of God through faith, etc.

Convince me of the other two points of TULIP, and I will gladly become a Calvinist. I'm already almost three quarters of the way there. Believe me, I love Spurgeoun, Sproul, etc. I listen to Calvinists most of the time anyways If you convince me WITH SCRIPTURE of L and I of TULIP, you will have another Calvinist.

 

[HankD]

I see the five points of TULIP or the five points of DAISY as being an "either/or" proposition.

You either believe in Total Depravity or you don't. (It's like being with child. You either are or you aren't. There is no middle ground.)

You either believe in Unconditional Election or you don't.

And so on.

And the same with DAISY.

I am unhappy with BOTH views.
Normally I don't take a recount of my issues but because the brother is expressing some of his issues - here are mine.
In particular those which Dr. Tom mentioned.

Total Depravity. Doc you know why I don't like this particular anagram expression:
We are in the image of God. The image of God is not depraved.
TD is troublesome to me because of this.

James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

James 3
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Somehow IMO calvinism needs to disassociate human depravity from the fact that we are created in the image and likeness of God
We are indeed all helpless and hopeless without the total intervention of God.

How depraved is the human heart (apart from bearing His image)?

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Not just deceitful but deceitful above all things.
Not just wicked but desperately wicked.
We cannot know it ourselves unless there is intervention by the Holy Spirit to reprove/convict of our sin.

Yet we bear His image a fact for which God holds us accountable.

But as depraved as we are (apart from bearing His image)
we were/are in God's eyes worth the blood of Christ (infinitely priceless)
This I believe is one of the reasons in His own counsel He decreed to redeem some.

This can not be said of angels of whom it is not said that they were created in the image of God.

But we (mankind) are His creation and regeneration (redeemed mankind) made in His image and likeness and BOUGHT with a price.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Again He did not shed His precious blood to redeem fallen angels (or so it seems).

We don't know the conditions of election.
It has conditions of which we know not. Yes this is my opinion but it is an opinion derived from scripture.

Again, we are all helpless and hopeless without the total intervention of God.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I fluctuated in my thinking for years until I finally settled in on I am UNDECIDED concerning our (decision, choice, etc...)

It seems a middle voice situation to me at this point.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

I will wait until someone greater than calvin or arminius illuminates me now or later.

So don't loose hope Dr Tom

Not confrontational just explaining my POV (partially)

HankD (Undecided Mugwump) .

 

[glad4mercy]

I am unhappy with BOTH views.
Normally I don't take a recount of my issues but because the brother is expressing some of his issues - here are mine.
In particular those which Dr. Tom mentioned.

Total Depravity. Doc you know why I don't like this particular anagram expression:
We are in the image of God. The image of God is not depraved.
TD is troublesome to me because of this.

James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

James 3
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Somehow IMO calvinism needs to disassociate human depravity from the fact that we are created in the image and likeness of God
We are indeed all helpless and hopeless without the total intervention of God.

How depraved is the human heart (apart from bearing His image)?

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Not just deceitful but deceitful above all things.
Not just wicked but desperately wicked.
We cannot know it ourselves unless there is intervention by the Holy Spirit to reprove/convict of our sin.

Yet we bear His image a fact for which God holds us accountable.

But as depraved as we are (apart from bearing His image)
we were/are in God's eyes worth the blood of Christ (infinitely priceless)
This I believe is one of the reasons in His own counsel He decreed to redeem some.

This can not be said of angels of whom it is not said that they were created in the image of God.

But we (mankind) are His creation and regeneration (redeemed mankind) made in His image and likeness and BOUGHT with a price.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Again He did not shed His precious blood to redeem fallen angels (or so it seems).

We don't know the conditions of election.
It has conditions of which we know not. Yes this is my opinion but it is an opinion derived from scripture.

Again, we are all helpless and hopeless without the total intervention of God.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I fluctuated in my thinking for years until I finally settled in on I am UNDECIDED concerning our (decision, choice, etc...)

It seems a middle voice situation to me at this point.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

I will wait until someone greater than calvin or arminius illuminates me now or later.

So don't loose hope Dr Tom

Not confrontational just explaining my POV (partially)

HankD (Undecided Mugwump) .

HankD- That's the thing. TULIP uses a lot of imprecise terminology. Even RC Sproul took issue with "total Depravity", preferring "radical depravity". I prefer "moral inability". Irresistable Grace? Synergism? (I don't know of anyone that thinks man has a part in regenerationg Himself. Arminians know that regeneration is an act of God as well as Calvinists.)

Not to pick on Calvinists, but I have issues with Arminianism too. God looking down the corriders of time to elect those who will believe in the future to me is too simplistic and I think some of the evangelistic people use are dangerous.

 

[TCassidy]

We are in the image of God. The image of God is not depraved.

And this is, of course, the result of a failure to understand what Total Depravity is.

Total Depravity is NOT the blotting out of the Image of God in a person.

Total Depravity is NOT that every lost person is as bad as he/she could be.

Total Depravity is that all of man is depraved and has been affected by the fall. The body of man has been affected by the fall, the soul of man has been affected by the fall, and the spirit of man has been affected by the fall.

There is nothing in the body that is good enough to approach God on its own righteousness.

There is nothing in the soul that is good enough to approach God on its own righteousness.

There is nothing in the spirit that is good enough to approach God on its own righteousness.

 

[TCassidy]

I have not found verses on a. irresistible grace or b. Jesus only died for the elect.

I will be the first to say that "irresistible Grace" is a poor choice, and, I suspect, it was chosen because they needed an "i" for the acronym.

A better way to express it would be "efficacious Grace." God's Grace always accomplishes what He intended it to accomplish. His Amazing Grace never fails.

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

James 1:18, "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."

John 5:21, “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.”

1 Peter 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

Colossians 2:13, "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,"

 

[TCassidy]

Do you want to refute anything I've said WITH SCRIPTURE?

Why would I want to refute it? You have, essentially, outlined biblical monergism. Particular redemption.

 

[glad4mercy]

Why would I want to refute it? You have, essentially, outlined biblical monergism. Particular redemption.

I will be the first to say that "irresistible Grace" is a poor choice, and, I suspect, it was chosen because they needed an "i" for the acronym.

A better way to express it would be "efficacious Grace." God's Grace always accomplishes what He intended it to accomplish. His Amazing Grace never fails.

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

James 1:18, "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures."

John 5:21, “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.”

1 Peter 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

Colossians 2:13, "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,"

I agree that Irresistable grace is a poor choice of words, and also agree that there is a radical move of God that accompanies the preaching of the Word that brings repentance and faith, leading to life. The soul is made alive by the hearing of faith through the operation of God.