Same song second verse

[glad4mercy]

Why would I want to refute it? You have, essentially, outlined biblical monergism. Particular redemption.

Monergism- Regeneration is an act of God alone...agreed.

Particular redemption- Christ's blood only saves and redeems those who believe...agreed.

If you are agreeable to these definitions, great. But these are not distinct to Calvinism. These should be held by any orthodox Christian. I am not a Universalist or a Pelagian...

quote- His Amazing Grace never fails.

I can definitely and heartily agree to that. God never fails. We may fail. Even Christians fail (God picks them up again), people can fall short of the Grace of God, people can receive the grace of God in vain, people can count themselves unworthy of His Grace, BUT HIS GRACE NEVER FAILS!

 

[glad4mercy]

I guess the biggest disagreement lies in that I believe that many people are going to go to hell that didn't need to go there. And this is not based on thinking God is obligated to save anyone, or that I think that the way Calvinists represent things is unfair, I certainly do not. I know we all justly deserve to go to hell. When I read the Bible, I see God drawing people and His goodness calling them to repent, and they resist.

Not because God failed.

God never fails. It is not a matter of God failing, it is a matter that you cannot coerce someone to love you. If you coerce it, it is not love.

I am not saying Calvinism teaches a coerced love. I am merely explaining why I can believe in resistable grace and still know that God's grace never fails. When people reject God's love, the failure is not God's, it is theirs. God offers them a gift and they reject it.

And them receiving a gift is not synergism or works salvation in any way. A gift is not earned.

And if you say, 'that leaves the final choice up to the sinner", I would say only in the sense that a relationship of love is a two way street. Love that is a one way street is love, but it is not a relationship. So God loves, but if we don't love Him, if we don't have a relationship as son or daughter of Him, He will say, "depart from me, I never knew you".

So resistable grace is not in any way contradictory to God's Sovereignty, nor is it contrary to God never fails, nor does it necessitate believing in synergism. There is nothing unscriptural in what I just said. If I go beyond this, then it will probably go awry, but I think I am safe in saying these few points.

Blessings.

 

[TCassidy]

I am not saying Calvinism teaches a coerced love. I am merely explaining why I can believe in resistable grace and still know that God's grace never fails.

Which is why I don't use the term "irresistible grace." That term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. But, Irresistible Grace does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s grace throughout his life. Instead, Irresistible Grace is the gracious act of God where, at the time of salvation, God regenerates a person which then means that the person will willingly, of his own free will receive and trust in Christ.

 

[utilyan]

Bible written to saved people. By saved people. Not one verse in NT written to a "never really saved " person. And we wonder why American churches are so weak with the doctrines of Lordship confusion.

John 20

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


This gospel is addressed to unsaved people. A unsaved person makes a CHOICE to read or hear this gospel.(synergism)

My understanding is according to calvinism a regeneration IS ONLY POSSIBLE after hearing the Gospel.

You could only understand the gospel if you are regenerated ,Cart before the horse.

The entire goal of Christianity is a regeneration:

1 Timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
.

What is taught however is cart before the horse, you are saved first, given a pure heart first, given perfect faith first.

You can't even understand the INSTRUCTION unless you are saved.


Imagine ingredients to bake a cake is know how to bake a cake.


Under Calvinism The gospel could have been written on one line with same effect. "God loves some and hates others" And that is absolutely all that need be said.


If I were Calvinist I wouldn't debate anyone here, that would be pretty sadistic. the only prime concern would be "ok have you heard the entire gospel" Check, ok I pray to God ......... and that is it, I am done.

Because other then hearing the gospel and a person agreeing to hear it "it is all on God".

 

[glad4mercy]

Which is why I don't use the term "irresistible grace." That term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. But, Irresistible Grace does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s grace throughout his life. Instead, Irresistible Grace is the gracious act of God where, at the time of salvation, God regenerates a person which then means that the person will willingly, of his own free will receive and trust in Christ.

But isn't regeneration brought about by faith? Galatians 3:2, we received the Spirit by faith. Other than that, I do agree that it is by the grace and power of God that we initially believe (I myself have experienced powerfully what you describe). and it is by grace and power of God that we continue to believe. Saved and kept by the power of God through faith

 

[glad4mercy]

John 20

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


This gospel is addressed to unsaved people. A unsaved person makes a CHOICE to read or hear this gospel.(synergism)

My understanding is according to calvinism a regeneration IS ONLY POSSIBLE after hearing the Gospel.

You could only understand the gospel if you are regenerated ,Cart before the horse.

The entire goal of Christianity is a regeneration:

1 Timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
.

What is taught however is cart before the horse, you are saved first, given a pure heart first, given perfect faith first.

You can't even understand the INSTRUCTION unless you are saved.


Imagine ingredients to bake a cake is know how to bake a cake.


Under Calvinism The gospel could have been written on one line with same effect. "God loves some and hates others" And that is absolutely all that need be said.


If I were Calvinist I wouldn't debate anyone here, that would be pretty sadistic. the only prime concern would be "ok have you heard the entire gospel" Check, ok I pray to God ......... and that is it, I am done.

Because other then hearing the gospel and a person agreeing to hear it "it is all on God".

Understanding the gospel alone will not save a person. I do not think man's problem is understanding. Man's problem is the love of sin and self. There has to be a massive change of the heart for man to love God as He ought. The problem is deep, to the core. That is why God doesn't tell us to lop off the branches that produce sin, but Himself steps in to deal with the ROOT of sin. Romans 8:3-4

 

[Iconoclast]

In Gal3......Paul is simply showing that it is not by a....principle...of works.
It is by, or through faith......that the Spirit works in and through us.
They were saying it was through law keeping.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I see the five points of TULIP or the five points of DAISY as being an "either/or" proposition.

You either believe in Total Depravity or you don't. (It's like being with child. You either are or you aren't. There is no middle ground.)

You either believe in Unconditional Election or you don't.

And so on.

And the same with DAISY.

Thank you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank you

John 10:27-30

Philippians 1:6

Romans 8:35-39

 

[TCassidy]

But isn't regeneration brought about by faith?

No. Faith is the result of regeneration. How can a lost person have faith? What is a believing unbeliever?

Faith is not a gift we give to God. Faith is a gift God gives to us.

 

[HankD]

Use of an anachronism is bound to cause problems.

 

[glad4mercy]

In Gal3......Paul is simply showing that it is not by a....principle...of works.
It is by, or through faith......that the Spirit works in and through us.
They were saying it was through law keeping.

...but he said received by faith

 

[TCassidy]

...but he said received by faith

Yes. Paul asks them if it was by the works of the law that they received the Holy Spirit or by the hearing of faith? How does one hear? He must have ears to hear. Who has ears to hear? The dead? No. The living. Those who are alive in Christ.

The Galatians had fallen into legalism. They thought, even though they were saved by faith, they had to keep the law in order to remain saved or have the Holy Spirit.

In fact, twice in the passage, Paul calls the Galatians "fools." First in verse 1 and again in verse 3.

 

[glad4mercy]

No. Faith is the result of regeneration. How can a lost person have faith? What is a believing unbeliever?

Faith is not a gift we give to God. Faith is a gift God gives to us.

Regeneration is a result of the Spirit's indwelling, which is the result of faith, which is the result of the effectual calling.

Agreed that faith is not a gift we give to God, but a gift God gives to us.

 

[glad4mercy]

Regeneration is a result of the Spirit's indwelling, which is the result of faith, which is the result of the effectual calling.

Agreed that faith is not a gift we give to God, but a gift God gives to us.

Yes. Paul asks them if it was by the works of the law that they received the Holy Spirit or by the hearing of faith? How does one hear? He must have ears to hear. Who has ears to hear? The dead? No. The living. Those who are alive in Christ.

The Galatians had fallen into legalism. They thought, even though they were saved by faith, they had to keep the law in order to remain saved or have the Holy Spirit.

In fact, twice in the passage, Paul calls the Galatians "fools." First in verse 1 and again in verse 3.

Yes,the reception of the Spirit is the result of the hearing of faith. But no regeneration until the Spirit indwells and the Spirit indwells those who hear with faith.

 

[HankD]

What happened in eternity is confusing when we see it pass by in 3 dimensions.

 

[TCassidy]

Regeneration is a result of the Spirit's indwelling, which is the result of faith, which is the result of the effectual calling.

You have yet to explain how a person can be an unbeliever and a believer at the same time. If calling = faith = indwelling = regeneration you have an unbeliever believing.

I suggest the order is calling = regeneration = faith = indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach us all things He desires us to know.

 

[HankD]

Personally I believe there is something before regeneration which is common to all humanity.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Corollary:

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for
if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Why reproval of the world and/or who is the target of the reproval? Sinners?
If so that needs to be explained by c theology as it's a form of communication.

God communicated with Cain the first murderer after he had shed his brother's blood.
Subsequently Cain pleaded with God and God granted His request.

Again I'm not convinced that there can be no communication between God and the unregenerate.

Jesus was not afraid to communicate with them.

 

[HankD]

I was going to edit this into the previous note but thought better

Having grown up in a Catholic family I have seen "faith" which many here at the BB would probably say was not true faith.

There is/was a trust in deity in my family as there is in many religions.
Of which Romans chapter 1 acknowledges with fact that they are without excuse which seems to say that they understood facts ABOUT God but would not yield to Him.

So Why Romans Chapter 1 if they knew not God - Romans 1 says they do/did?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


FWIW These posts are not confrontational challenges but informational challenges for the benefit on non-c people..

 

[utilyan]

Understanding the gospel alone will not save a person. I do not think man's problem is understanding. Man's problem is the love of sin and self. There has to be a massive change of the heart for man to love God as He ought. The problem is deep, to the core. That is why God doesn't tell us to lop off the branches that produce sin, but Himself steps in to deal with the ROOT of sin. Romans 8:3-4

"That is why God doesn't tell us to lop off the branches that produce sin, but Himself steps in to deal with the ROOT of sin."

Matthew 5

29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

He tells you to lop off the branches that produce sin.

Telling you to fix it IS God's method with dealing with the ROOT of sin....which is US.


Romans, is aimed at Jewish law. It points out that Sincerity is always greater then Obligation.

Romans 13

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.


Only God regenerates us, justifies us, saves us, we all can agree.

The means is his prerogative. He may choose to put out a fire with a rain, a flood, asking you to put it out, or using a toothpick soaked in gasoline.

Jesus can put mud on your eyes and ok go wash your eyes out in the river, or he can just say get up and pick up your bed. The means is his prerogative, what if the blind man refused to wash his eyes, did the mud fix anything at all? the river?

Someone can get zapped by God to become saints, he could also do it because you requested God to change their heart. He can also send you to change their heart. He can also speak to them to change their own heart.

We can all be in heaven absolutely without a speck of sin if God wished it at the blink of an eye.

God doesn't want anyone here to sin.....ever again, period.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from never sinning:

1 Corinthians 10

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

The means is his choice. He can have us all drop dead, not much sinning if your dead right? Instead he is training YOU to stop sin, and that absolutely may involve relying upon nothing but God.

We go though trials and tests, God doesn't need a test to find out something he doesn't know, all these things are for you to figure out what you don't know.

God is a Father.