Same song second verse

[glad4mercy]

James Arminius was a Dutch REFORMED theologian. He agreed with all points of TULIP except Unconditional Election. He believed Election was due to God looking down the corridor of time and seeing who would believe, and electing that person to eternal life.

He does not appear to have believed in Irrresistable grace...

..."is the grace of God a certain irresistible force?" That is, the controversy does not relate to those actions or operations which may be ascribed to grace, (for I acknowledge and inculcate as many of these actions or operations as any man ever did,) but it relates solely to the mode of operation, whether it be irresistible or not. With respect to which, I believe, according to the scriptures, that many persons resist the Holy Spirit and reject the grace that is offered.

Works of Arminius- Volume ONE article four

 

[TCassidy]

He does not appear to have believed in Irrresistable grace...

Remember that the Remonstrance does not reflect only his thinking. It was published after his death and was still being edited at the time of publication.

By his own statement, which you quote, you see that he agrees almost word for word with what I posted earlier for Hank.

"I believe, according to the scriptures, that many persons resist the Holy Spirit and reject the grace that is offered."

 

[glad4mercy]

As long as you don't have the Spirit indwelling a person before justification, then I can go along with that.


Well as long as you don't have the Spirit indwelling a person before faith and justification, I'm Ok with that.

Remember that the Remonstrance does not reflect only his thinking. It was published after his death and was still being edited at the time of publication.

I would suggest reading his own writings. I would suggest starting with Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1.

I own them and the quote I gave was from his works (though I got if online, because I couldn't find volume 1 )

 

[TCassidy]

Compare what he said with what I posted in post #23 of this thread.

He said

"I believe, according to the scriptures, that many persons resist the Holy Spirit and reject the grace that is offered."

I said

That term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. But, Irresistible Grace does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s grace throughout his life. Instead, Irresistible Grace is the gracious act of God where, at the time of salvation, God regenerates a person which then means that the person will willingly, of his own free will receive and trust in Christ.

He and I seem to be in agreement.

 

[HankD]

Rather than suffer the humiliation of being told I don't understand CA or Modern Arminianism I'll put it this way:

There seems to be ingredients missing which I heard in General Baptist churches as a young man (50 years or so ago) Illumination and empowerment.
There are scriptures to support these teachings but for now I'll just give the run down.

God draws all men to Christ through the Holy Spirit via the illumination of the Holy Spirit in at least 3 parts - conviction of sin, the need of a Savior , empowerment of the will by the Holy Spirit

This illumination has a temporal limitation. if one does not respond positively the Spirit of God will eventually leave off with the illumination and never return with these necessary elements.

I remember vividly at "Revival Meetings" hearing this concept incorporated in the invitation

"Today do not harden your heart" or like pharaoh, God will harden your heart and/or never return with His illumination and empowerment to choose Christ as your Savior".
"You think you can turn to Christ any time you wish but without the power of the Holy Spirit you cannot"
"Do it now before He leaves off calling you to come to Christ".

Note the quotation marks, These statements are VERY accurate recounts of terminology I heard on many occasions at the KJVO local church of my youth.

Here is just one of the passages.
Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

 

[glad4mercy]

Compare what he said with what I posted in post #23 of this thread.

He said


I said

He and I seem to be in agreement.

Good point, but your view of grace is irresistable in one sense, because he who God draws ( or what you called regeneration) will infallibly come. They will infallibly believe. Then also, those who God passes over have no real offer of saving grace. This is the main place where the disagreement lies. All the agreements unravel here

 

[glad4mercy]

Rather than suffer the humiliation of being told I don't understand CA or Modern Arminianism I'll put it this way:

There seems to be ingredients missing which I heard in General Baptist churches as a young man (50 years or so ago) Illumination and empowerment.
There are scriptures to support these teachings but for now I'll just give the run down.

God draws all men to Christ through the Holy Spirit via the illumination of the Holy Spirit in at least 3 parts - conviction of sin, the need of a Savior , empowerment of the will by the Holy Spirit

This illumination has a temporal limitation. if one does not respond positively the Spirit of God will eventually leave off with the illumination and never return with these necessary elements.

I remember vividly at "Revival Meetings" hearing this concept incorporated in the invitation

"Today do not harden your heart" or like pharaoh, God will harden your heart and/or never return with His illumination and empowerment to choose Christ as your Savior".
"You think you can turn to Christ any time you wish but without the power of the Holy Spirit you cannot"
"Do it now before He leaves off calling you to come to Christ".

Note the quotation marks, These statements are VERY accurate recounts of terminology I heard on many occasions at the KJVO local church of my youth.

Here is just one of the passages.
Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Yes, the difference is in one God draws (as you said) and the drawing can be resisted or rejected. The other side says God regenerates and the drawing is irresistable. More important is the question as to whether there is a real offer of grace to the non elect To say that they are a razors edge from each other is to miss the wide disagreement of the conclusions drawn

 

[TCassidy]

Then also, those who God passes over have no real offer of saving grace.

That is not what we believe. The Gospel Call is universal, and very real. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL people unto Myself."

This is the main place where the disagreement lies. All the agreements unravel here.

In this case the disagreement is in your own mind. It does NOT reflect what Particular Redemption actually says and believes.

Yes, the difference is in one God draws (as you said) and the drawing can be resisted or rejected. The other side says God regenerates and the drawing is irresistable.

No. We never say the Gospel Call is irresistible. It obviously is not. It is resisted every day. I resisted it for 27 years.

 

[HankD]

Yes, the difference is in one God draws (as you said) and the drawing can be resisted or rejected. The other side says God regenerates and the drawing is irresistable. More important is the question as to whether there is a real offer of grace to the non elect To say that they are a razors edge from each other is to miss the wide disagreement of the conclusions drawn

Early on after becoming aware of the C/A controversy I found I did not have to change my own technique of witness.
The part I didn't accept is that the Holy Spirit left someone even a unregenerate but was/is constantly calling, convicting, inviting.

In door-to-door witness and street preaching - on the one-to-one basis I would end the conversation with - Do you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior today?

I did not and do not give a Lordship salvation invitation although I let it be know that He is LORD, God come in the flesh.
Once they came to the local church I was involved with they knew - He is LORD
We would attempt to disciple, wait and watch.

I don't get out that much anymore - health issues.

 

[glad4mercy]

That is not what we believe. The Gospel Call is universal, and very real. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL people unto Myself."

In this case the disagreement is in your own mind. It does NOT reflect what Particular Redemption actually says and believes.

No. We never say the Gospel Call is irresistible. It obviously is not. It is resisted every day. I resisted it for 27 years.

How does Jesus draw corpses and how does a dead person resist a call? I appreciate your answers, and I think we agree on much, but what OTHER Calvinists say seems to disagree with what you are saying. Or maybe it's just a tension that I'm not understanding

 

[percho]

1905. TULIP was formulated as a teaching device in about 1905, when the Rev. Cleland Boyd McAfee used the acronym in a lecture before the Presbyterian Union, meeting in Newark, New Jersey.

I much prefer:

Triple Depravity (body, soul, spirit)
Decisive Selection (the good pleasure of His will)
Particular Atonement (Sufficient for all, efficient only for believers)
Efficacious Grace (God's grace never fails to achieve its intended purpose)
Preservation of the believer (Preserved unto the day of judgment)

The problem is that TDPEP doesn't make a good mnemonic because it doesn't spell anything!

Makes me think of this:

Red: I know what you think it means, sonny. To me, it's just a made up word. A politician's word, so young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie, and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what I did?

They made up something for their own use.

 

[glad4mercy]

T

That is not what we believe. The Gospel Call is universal, and very real. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL people unto Myself."

In this case the disagreement is in your own mind. It does NOT reflect what Particular Redemption actually says and believes.

No. We never say the Gospel Call is irresistible. It obviously is not. It is resisted every day. I resisted it for 27 years.

That is not what we believe. The Gospel Call is universal, and very real. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL people unto Myself."

In this case the disagreement is in your own mind. It does NOT reflect what Particular Redemption actually says and believes.

No. We never say the Gospel Call is irresistible. It obviously is not. It is resisted every day. I resisted it for 27 years.

T. Cassidy, I pretty much agree with almost everything you say. I think the misunderstanding was on my part, and merely a semantic one. What you call regeneration, I called the drawing of the Holy Spirit, but we believe basically the same thing on this, the terminology is different.

I still believe the New Birth is effected by the indwellimg of the Holy Spirit, but we are in basic agreemernt as to what leads to that New Birth/indwelling. Thanks to you and the rest for an informative discussion.

This conversation has also given me a new perspective on something else I had been troubled about, and now I am at peace with that as well. Thanks again.

I used to be anti-Calvinist, but over the years many of my objections have been answered. There are still a couple things that I am not ready to accept, but I am open to scripture and the Spirit, so if and when i get to the point where these are illuminated to me, I am in subjection to God's Word.

Blessings

 

[glad4mercy]

So instead of Daisy or Tulip, this is what I see the Bible as teaching.

S. Seperation- Natural man is seperated from God by His trespasses and sins, and is under the just condemnation of the wrath of God. (Ephesians 2:1)

P. Propitiation- Jesus died for all men- Jesus paid the price of Death for every man to redeem man ,but the price is only communicated to those who believe. Jesus satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those who believe, but those who do not believe remain under the wrath of God. ( John 3:16)

I. Inability- Man by nature does not love God or seek God, nor can He please God. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him. (John 6:44)

C. Conversion- Those who repent and believe the Gospel are freely justified, set apart, adopted, and indwelt with the Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

E. Eternal Life- Those who are Jesus' sheep (His own) listen to Jesus' voice. He knows them and they follow Him. He gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any many pluck them out of His Hand. (John 10:27-30)



SPICE

 

[HankD]

So instead of Daisy or Tulip, this is what I see the Bible as teaching.

S. Seperation- Natural man is seperated from God by His trespasses and sins, and is under the just condemnation of the wrath of God. (Ephesians 2:1)

P. Propitiation- Jesus died for all men- Jesus paid the price of Death for every man to redeem man ,but the price is only communicated to those who believe. Jesus satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those who believe, but those who do not believe remain under the wrath of God. ( John 3:16)

I. Inability- Man by nature does not love God or seek God, nor can He please God. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him. (John 6:44)

C. Conversion- Those who repent and believe the Gospel are freely justified, set apart, adopted, and indwelt with the Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

E. Eternal Life- Those who are Jesus' sheep (His own) listen to Jesus' voice. He knows them and they follow Him. He gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any many pluck them out of His Hand. (John 10:27-30)



SPICE

The SPICE of Life

Assumption: Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

 

[glad4mercy]

The SPICE of Life

Assumption: Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.

I love the spice of life. But what you stated is not an assumption. An assumption is something accepted without evidence. What God does in human hearts to those who believe is great evidence

 

[glad4mercy]

Yes, that is obvious.

No, they can't. A lost person is, by definition, an unbeliever. If he were a believer he would no longer be lost.

I was an unbeliever, and in an instant, by the Grace of God, I became a believer and was justified. SO this unbeliever BY THE GRACE OF GOD believed and was justified. But until the point of justification, I was lost. I was under the guilt of condemnation and sin. SO Grace of God to faith to justification unto life. Justification OF LIFE. ROMANS 5:18