37818
Well-Known Member
It is you who sadly has no clue what I believe. Even after I give explanations.
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Sanctification precedes regeneration.
- Thread starter 37818
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Then explain it clearly to us. We wait for you, since you keep whining that no one understands you. Stop the circular whining and speak clearly. Define your terms, express your position, and back it up with passages in the Bible. At present you have nothing.
l understand and I am quite certain I have spent much more time studying the sermon to the Hebrew church than you or Sliverhair have done.
I don't really want to argue this one way or the other. Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit on someone who has been chosen by God from the beginning for salvation. Whether sactification is followed swiftly by belief or vice versa is not something I have time to discuss right now.
And here, Peter's intention is to show the Trinitarian nature of salvation: Election by the Father, sancification by the Spirit and the blood of Christ.. I don't think he is concerned to show a particular order.
This post is probably shorter than it should be, but I am suffering with back pain at present and am finding it uncomfortable to sit at my laptop.
37818
Well-Known Member
I hold the view God sanctifies first. If not, then Hebrews 10:29 becomes a proof text salvation is not for sure.
37818
Well-Known Member
I would not doubt this. But if you cannot understand the arguments to simplify your view to set it clearly against the two views you disagree with, what good is it?
These are difficult verses and need more time than I am able to give to them right now., but they surely cannot mean that, for example, John 10:28 is untrue or that the inheritance of 1 Peter 1:4-5 is in fact corruptible and that believers are not kept by the power of God.
The Puritan John Owen tackled these verses head on in his book, "The Nature and Causes of Apostasy from the Gospel," available as a Banner of Truth Puritan Paperback. All I will say here is that nothing is said in Hebrews 6:4-5 that cannot be said of the Israelites who came out of Egypt. They had true experiences of God that were not saving experiences - led by the pillar of fire and cloud, they walked across the Red Sea on dry ground; they drank from the Rock, ate the manna, fed on the quail and even heard the very voice of God. But their characters were not changed, they died in unbelief and never experienced God's rest. Read Hebrews 3:16-19 and 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.
"He that endures to the end shall be saved." God's elect will persevere, but it is also necessary that they do. 1 Corinthians 10:12. But if God has sanctified you, set you apart in Christ, then you will persevere and 'do works befitting repentance.'
Not when you understand that it is not the apostate who was sanctified, but Christ.
The writer to the Hebrews has already promised that weak Christians can find grace in time of need, and that failing Christians can find mercy at the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:14-16.
1 When I fear my faith will fail,
Christ will hold me fast;
When the tempter would prevail,
He can hold me fast!
Refrain:
He will hold me fast,
He will hold me fast;
For my Savior loves me so,
He will hold me fast.
2 I could never keep my hold,
On life's thorny path;
For my love is often cold,
He must hold me fast. [Refrain]
3 I am precious in His sight,
He will hold me fast;
Those He saves are His delight,
He will hold me fast. [Refrain]
4 He'll not let my soul be lost,
Christ will hold me fast;
Bought by Him at such a cost,
He will hold me fast. [Refrain]
Amen.
Ada Habershon
Source: The New National Baptist Hymnal (21st Century Edition)
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do not think that OSAS is the correct understanding. I think the key can be found in the words of J. Vernon McGee "There are many folk today who are not sure about their salvation and therefore are not enjoying it. Nevertheless they are saved if they have fixed their trust in Christ as their Savior." Note his words here "if they have fixed their trust in Christ as their Savior" Believe is a verb, we must continue to believe in Christ Jesus. While no one can snatch us out of the hand of God. God will not not force anyone to stay there.
37818
Well-Known Member
Wrong. Christ's blood by God's word is the sanctifing agent. There is no literal translation where in Hebrews 10:29 the "he was sanctified" refers to Christ.
37818
Well-Known Member
Nor can one remove one's self from God's hands, John 10:27-30. But if Hebrews 10:29 refers to one saved leaving the faith, it cannot mean that.
If the reader does not understand that Hebrews is a sermon to a Jewish congregation and that in any congregation you have both the regenerate and unregenerate person hearing the sermon, you will not understand what the preacher is telling this congregation. You will, erroneously, think the preacher is saying that Christians can lose their salvation. This is hardly the case as the preacher makes abundantly clear in the context of the whole.
*Hebrews 10:19-39*
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
*Hebrews 10:19-39*
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The Israelites would have experienced 4 of the 5, they would not have been partakers of the Holy Spirit as that only happens when one trusts in Christ Jesus. But that does not alter the reality that Christians experience the same things and yet some do actually fall away just as we are warned to guard against.
Martin I noted that you quoted Christ "He that endures to the end shall be saved." But the context shows the conditionality of that endurance. Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. ESV
The apostles at that time nor us now are being told that God will carry us through rather we are told that as long as we hold firm to the truth we will be saved. In other words Christ is saying do not fall away from the truth and you will be saved.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
37 note the words used "no one will snatch them out of my hand" & "no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." The devil nor anyone else can force someone to turn from faith in Christ Jesus but what is not found in these words is the a person can not turn away by him/herself.
SNATCH To seize without permission; To seize and transport away
We are seeing many fall away from the true faith to follow teachers that tickle their ears.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.
37818
Well-Known Member
You interpert that term to disallow from self doing so.
And to deny never, that is, not in any way G3364 to perish, verse 27.
Hebrews 10:29. 'Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose , will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God undefoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Those that hear and believe are saved but if they do not continue to believe they have rejected Christ Jesus. With the OSAS view a person could repudiate Christ and still be saved which is illogical. Why would a person that does not believe in Christ want to spend eternity with Him and why would God make them do it?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
37 eternal life is what we will get after our resurrection, it is the promise of God to all that believe. But as I said before it is for those that continue to believe. If one falls away as we see in 1Timothy 4:1-2 and the consequence in Hebrews 6:6
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
A question for you Martin, did Christ need to be sanctified by the blood of the covenant and when did He insulted the Spirit of grace? Who tramples Christ underfoot, is sanctified by the blood of Christ, has insulted the Holly Spirit?
Look at the context of this verse.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who
{1} has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
{2} counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing,
{3 }and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Those that have heard the gospel message and rejected it will have no other means of salvation Heb 10:26
Those that try to live under the law of Moses are condemned. Heb 10:28
Those that have trusted in Christ and then repudiate Him will suffer even greater punishment. Heb 10:29