Satan and sin

[Brother Bob]

Paul never refers to a messenger of Satan. You are reading that into the text. It is not there. Look at the verse again:

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is a war as described by the previous verses.
Paul finds victory over that war. Here is the vicotry, and here is also the defeat.

The victory: With the mind I myself serve the law of God.
The defeat: With the flesh I serve the law of sin.

Who is your master? Who will you serve? The law of God or the law of sin? Satan does not enter into this equation. You make the choice entirely apart from Satan. In fact Satan is not mentioned in Romans 7. The battle is in the mind. We make the choice who we will serve. Satan is not one of those choices. God and our own flesh are the only choices given.

That is where you lack understanding DHK; 2 Corth; plainly tells us that Paul had a thorn in the flesh a messenger of satan, all the time and God refused to remove it. Just because its on in Romans 7 scripture, does not mean the thorn was not there.
You just plain err.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

That is where you lack understanding DHK; 2 Corth; plainly tells us that Paul had a thorn in the flesh a messenger of satan, all the time and God refused to remove it. Just because its on in Romans 7 scripture, does not mean the thorn was not there.
You just plain err.

BBob,

No, Bob. You are simply ignoring Romans 7.
The Book of Romans is one of the most thorough treatises on soteriology ever written. Paul covers all the aspects of salvation. It has nothing to do with Second Epistle of Corinthians where Paul is addressing problems at Corinth. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth. You cannot put the instruction he is giving at Corinth into Romans 7 just to fit your own theology. That is proof-texting. Deal with the text of Romans 7. Explain it.

 

[DHK]

Satan can only be in one place at one time, is completely ridiculous. If one of his evil spirits is there, so is he.

BBob,

If Satan is everywhere, then Satan is God. Is Satan God, Bob?

 

[menageriekeeper]

We can only say that he is "ubiquitous." That is: he seems to be everywhere because of the multitude of demons that he has serving under him that he sends everywhere to do his work. It therefore seems like he is everywhere, but he isn't. He can only be at one place at one time.

Satan can only be in one place at one time, is completely ridiculous. If one of his evil spirits is there, so is he.

Questions for you both:

DHK: Why do you believe there are multitudes of demons. Are we ever given any scripture that alludes to multitudes?

Bro.Bob: Do you believe Satan somehow indwells his demons?

 

[Brother Bob]

No, Bob. You are simply ignoring Romans 7.
The Book of Romans is one of the most thorough treatises on soteriology ever written. Paul covers all the aspects of salvation. It has nothing to do with Second Epistle of Corinthians where Paul is addressing problems at Corinth. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth. You cannot put the instruction he is giving at Corinth into Romans 7 just to fit your own theology. That is proof-texting. Deal with the text of Romans 7. Explain it.

It is the same Paul in Romans as in Corth. I have already explain. Paul was not one way in the flesh in Romans and then become another in Corth.
You are not accepting the truth.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Questions for you both:

DHK: Why do you believe there are multitudes of demons. Are we ever given any scripture that alludes to multitudes?

Bro.Bob: Do you believe Satan somehow indwells his demons?

They are an extension of satan. We all have the thorn in the flesh, which is a messenger of satan. We will not escape that thorn until we die naturally. We then will be resurrected according to how we died, in the Lord or not.


BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

If Satan is everywhere, then Satan is God. Is Satan God, Bob?

To ask me if satan is God, is really in the realm of ridiculeous.

On this earth, ever where good is, evil is present. If evil is present, that is satan.

The opposite of good, is evil.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Questions for you both:

DHK: Why do you believe there are multitudes of demons. Are we ever given any scripture that alludes to multitudes?

Let's look at Scripture:

Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
--When Satan was cast out of heaven after rebellion against God, he took one third of the angels with him. Those are fallen angels or his demons.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
--Legion means one thousand. There were possibly one thousand demons that inhabited this man. Even taken less literally, the Scripture definitely says "many devils (literally demons) were entered into him.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many demons were entered into him. (ASV)

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--Understand the magnitude of this verse. There came to Peter: not only the sick out of the great city of Jerusalem, but also the sick from all the cities surrounding Jerusalem. That is a great multitude. Many of those were "vexed with unclean spirits" or demons. They can't all be the same one. And Peter healed every one of them. BTW, that is the true gift of healing which cannot be demonstrated today.

There are many more Scriptures where demons is used in the plural.

 

[DHK]

It is the same Paul in Romans as in Corth. I have already explain. Paul was not one way in the flesh in Romans and then become another in Corth.
You are not accepting the truth.

BBob,

I will ask you again. Explain Romans 7:25 Bob. Quit dodging it. You don't have to go to a "thorn in the flesh" in 2Cor. That doesn't cut it. Use the context of Romans 7 to explain Romans 7:25. Why can't you do this very simple task??

 

[DHK]

To ask me if satan is God, is really in the realm of ridiculeous.

On this earth, ever where good is, evil is present. If evil is present, that is satan.

The opposite of good, is evil.

BBob,

That is dualism. Many false religions believe that, like Zorastrianism. Do you really adhere to that? Is evil to be equated to Satan? Is Satan a person or a force? Is he just a permeating force called evil, that wherever this influence of force is, Satan is present. So Satan is not really a person, he is just an influence, an idea, a force of some sort? Is that what you believe?

 

[Brother Bob]

That is dualism. Many false religions believe that, like Zorastrianism. Do you really adhere to that? Is evil to be equated to Satan? Is Satan a person or a force? Is he just a permeating force called evil, that wherever this influence of force is, Satan is present. So Satan is not really a person, he is just an influence, an idea, a force of some sort? Is that what you believe?

He was a serphent in the garden, you just quoted scripture where he was a dragon, It seems you believe he is a person,

I have explained Romans. Knowing you, I do not think you would be satisfied, unless I said what you believe, of which I am not. Satan is an evil spirit.
What is the opposite of good, you got any idea.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Let's look at Scripture:

Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
--When Satan was cast out of heaven after rebellion against God, he took one third of the angels with him. Those are fallen angels or his demons.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
--Legion means one thousand. There were possibly one thousand demons that inhabited this man. Even taken less literally, the Scripture definitely says "many devils (literally demons) were entered into him.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many demons were entered into him. (ASV)

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--Understand the magnitude of this verse. There came to Peter: not only the sick out of the great city of Jerusalem, but also the sick from all the cities surrounding Jerusalem. That is a great multitude. Many of those were "vexed with unclean spirits" or demons. They can't all be the same one. And Peter healed every one of them. BTW, that is the true gift of healing which cannot be demonstrated today.

There are many more Scriptures where demons is used in the plural.

Revelation, chapter 12

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Who was the woman that brought forth a man child? Do you know?

Who is the child that was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron, do you know?



Rev. 12

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

When did salvation and strength come to the earth, or are you still looking for it to come? Do you not believe that Jesus brought salvation when He died on the cross.

How did we recieve salvation and strength and overcome the devil. It was by the blood of the Lamb, is that still to happen?

 

[tinytim]

To ask me if satan is God, is really in the realm of ridiculeous.

On this earth, ever where good is, evil is present. If evil is present, that is satan.

The opposite of good, is evil.

BBob,

That is what the new agers teach.. the eastern religions believe this... this is what the yin yang stands for....

Satan cannot be everywhere at once... He is a created angelic being... ONE being.. with a personality...

The demons are the fallen angels... the third that God through out of Heaven...

I also believe there are multitudes of them... for in Rev. 12, it speaks of them as stars...

There are twice as many angels as demons...

Since there are so many demons, it can appear that satan is omnipresent. That is what he wants us to think.. remember he is trying to counterfeit God...

He tries to convince humanity that he is as powerful as God.

But in reality he is just a fallen angel. I believe since there are three angels mentioned in scripture... Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer, and since the scriptures talk about a third of the angels rebeling... I believe God had three top Angelic leaders... Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, and Lucifer turned evil, got prideful, and led his ranks in rebellion... God through them out of Heaven.

Of course that is my opinion (about how the third got thrown out)

Don't fall for Satan's lie that he is as powerful as God, just on the evil side.

He is not, and he still has to answer to God.

He is a counterfeit wannabe. He is a loser, and knows it... We have been given power we don't use. and if he can convince us that he is as strong as God, he keeps us defeated.

Don't fall for it Bob.

 

[tinytim]

He was a serphent in the garden, you just quoted scripture where he was a dragon, It seems you believe he is a person,

I have explained Romans. Knowing you, I do not think you would be satisfied, unless I said what you believe, of which I am not. Satan is an evil spirit.
What is the opposite of good, you got any idea.

BBob,

He is a person... He has a personality.. but he is not in the human race.
He is an angleic being. and is limited as such...

He has the same capabilities as the other angels...
He chooses to use his for evil.

But nowhere can angels be seen as omni-anything.
So, he cannot be tempting me the same time he is tempting you.. .he is only one person...


BUT, his imps are innumerable... and some can be here, some can be there...

 

[DHK]

He was a serphent in the garden, you just quoted scripture where he was a dragon, It seems you believe he is a person,

He is a person.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

He appears as an angel; one that is very good. In the Bible angels appeared as men, barely differing from man himself.
His demons also appear just like good preachers. They are not always invisible.

I have explained Romans. Knowing you, I do not think you would be satisfied, unless I said what you believe, of which I am not. Satan is an evil spirit.
What is the opposite of good, you got any idea.
BBob,

No you haven't. You refuse to explain Romans 7:25 using the context of Romans 7 alone. You want to force your theology into it by using irrelevant Scripture. That is unnaceptable.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is what the new agers teach.. the eastern religions believe this... this is what the yin yang stands for....

Satan cannot be everywhere at once... He is a created angelic being... ONE being.. with a personality...

The demons are the fallen angels... the third that God through out of Heaven...

I also believe there are multitudes of them... for in Rev. 12, it speaks of them as stars...

There are twice as many angels as demons...

Since there are so many demons, it can appear that satan is omnipresent. That is what he wants us to think.. remember he is trying to counterfeit God...

He tries to convince humanity that he is as powerful as God.

But in reality he is just a fallen angel. I believe since there are three angels mentioned in scripture... Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer, and since the scriptures talk about a third of the angels rebeling... I believe God had three top Angelic leaders... Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, and Lucifer turned evil, got prideful, and led his ranks in rebellion... God through them out of Heaven.

Of course that is my opinion (about how the third got thrown out)

Don't fall for Satan's lie that he is as powerful as God, just on the evil side.

He is not, and he still has to answer to God.

He is a counterfeit wannabe. He is a loser, and knows it... We have been given power we don't use. and if he can convince us that he is as strong as God, he keeps us defeated.

Don't fall for it Bob.

Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So you believe satan was cast out of heaven because of trading merchandise, and was cast down to hell and the grave, and the worms eat him.

I thought satan was still upon the earth.

Do you think the devil can only deceive one person at a time Tim?


You got any scripture to support this. I don't want what someone has written, but scripture, thank you,

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

He is a person.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

He appears as an angel; one that is very good. In the Bible angels appeared as men, barely differing from man himself.
His demons also appear just like good preachers. They are not always invisible.

No you haven't. You refuse to explain Romans 7:25 using the context of Romans 7 alone. You want to force your theology into it by using irrelevant Scripture. That is unnaceptable.

You got any scripture supporting he is a person??

How can a person enter another person, you got any idea?

Jhn 13:27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

2Cr 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Cr 12:7¶And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Rev 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He gets around pretty good, doesn't he to be a person?

God ask satan from whence he came? Satan did not say from heaven, but from wandering the earth.


BBob,

 

[DHK]

You got any scripture supporting he is a person??

BBob,

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
--These Scriptures, already given, support that he is a person.
--He is the person that tried to dethrone God, and was therefore cast out of Heaven. Only a person could do that.

Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

These verses speak about Satan.
Five times in verses 13 he uses the first person singular I. Only a person can have such aspirations. This was "Lucifer's" or Satan's sin. Lucifer, cast out of Heaven, became Satan. He was the same person; only the name changed.

Ezekiel also describes him:
Ezekiel 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

These things can only describe Satan. He is a person. He was in Eden. He is a created being, a person. He was created as a perfect being or person. And when iniquity was found in him he was cast out of heaven.
What now makes you think that he is not a person?

 

[Brother Bob]

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
--These Scriptures, already given, support that he is a person.
--He is the person that tried to dethrone God, and was therefore cast out of Heaven. Only a person could do that.

Are you kidding, he was a serphent, a dragon, an evil spirit, an angel of light. Seems he can transform himself into almost anything. I am sure he could come to you as a person, but that does not mean he is a person.

Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

He had that desire alright, but he did not make it. Anyway, this goes against what you said that he was in heaven and then cast down.

These verses speak about Satan.
Five times in verses 13 he uses the first person singular I. Only a person can have such aspirations. This was "Lucifer's" or Satan's sin. Lucifer, cast out of Heaven, became Satan. He was the same person; only the name changed.

Yes, the king of Babylon, not satan. Is satan in the grave?

The worms eat him, is satan been eaten by worms?

Isaiah 14
11: Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Ezekiel also describes him:
Ezekiel 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.



These things can only describe Satan. He is a person. He was in Eden. He is a created being, a person. He was created as a perfect being or person. And when iniquity was found in him he was cast out of heaven.
What now makes you think that he is not a person?

You think that dragon, was a person. or the serphent.

LUCIFERbrilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) to denote his glory.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

You think that dragon, was a person. or the serphent.
BBob,

The dragon was a name for Satan, and symbolic of Satan.
The serpent was an animal that Satan inhabited.

Are you kidding, he was a serphent, a dragon, an evil spirit, an angel of light. Seems he can transform himself into almost anything. I am sure he could come to you as a person, but that does not mean he is a person.

The above is your response to 2Cor.11:14,15.
It is a typical response to the post that you posted here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1197212&postcount=1

Now, Bob: I would expect that from a child, but such "childish" reasoning ought not to come from a pastor.
The verse says that he is able to change himself or make himself appear as an angel of light. He who is an apostate angel can put on the appearance of a holy angel, is the meaning. Search the OT and the NT. How did angels appear? Gabriel, the angel to Manaoh, the two to Lot, etc. These were hardly discernable from the average man, until they made themselves known to whom they were appearing to. Jacob at first did not know that an angel was in the way, appearing to him, until the angel identified himself. They appeared as men.

But you have taken Scripture out of context, very symbolic Scripture used in the Book of Revelation, and thrust it into 2Cor. as though it should fit. You do not rightly divide the word of truth.
The only thing these verses have in common is that they provide some of the different names of Satan: angel of light, Serpent, that Great Dragon, etc. The latter is the most symbolic. The serpent was the animal in the Garden of Eden that was more subtile than all the other animals and so Satan used it. He inhabited it in order to deceive Eve. And he succeeded. Demons inhabit people all the time. Christ went around casting out demons. He cast out a thousand demons out of the man at the Gaderenes, whose name was Legion. The Holy Spirit is a person. So are demons. Both can inhabit a person.

The Bible says: "Then Satan entered into Judas."

He had that desire alright, but he did not make it. Anyway, this goes against what you said that he was in heaven and then cast down.

Why? Satan was cast out of heaven, as I have said continuously.

Yes, the king of Tyre, not satan.

There was only a partial fulfillment to Tyre.
The complete fulfillment was in Satan.
There is no way that all that was said could describe Tyre.
But they do describe Satan to a TEE.