Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

[JonC]

So, you are saying you do not take the words of scripture literally that these men did the things they “heard” from Satan? Unlike Judas, who had a direct influence from Satan to betray Jesus.

The conversation has shifted, I see. The thread is about how “Satan murdered Jesus”, but has shifted to evil men under the direct or indirect influence of Satan murdered Jesus, to an acknowledgment that Jesus actually had a say in His own murder…

So, you seem to agree there was an indirect influence upon these men… OK

peace to you

No, I do take them literally. I just do not believe that Satan materialized in front of them and had a conversation.

Jesus is clear that they heard Satan, did Satan will, desires what Satan desired, and desired to kill Him. BUT Jesus also makes it clear that Satan lies and they believed a lie (they considered Jesus as stricken by God).

We should hear God. But this is not necessarily an audible voice.

If we believe God's Word (unfortunately several of you admittedly do not) then we hear God in His Word.

That is how I can know without a doubt that Jesus lay down His own life and was not robbed of it while also knowing without a doubt that those who killed Him were doing Satan's will, listening to Satan's lies.

The spiritual maturity comes with accepting God's Word even if we have trouble grasping it. Where a few here simply reject God on a few points, if you accept Him then sooner or later you may come to understand that He did not contradict Himself.

ALL of Scripture is true. You reject that idea, but your rejection has no effect on Scripture itself. God's Word is true because God is true.

John 8:38–44 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have not modified my position at all.
You simply didn't understand my post.

Accepting Scripture is not glorifying Satan. But rejecting Scripture may be.

You insist that Satan wanted to prevent Jesus from dying.

But the Bible states that it was Satan who entered into Judas to betray Christ, Satan who influenced those to desire to kill Jesus, and men doing Satan's will who killed Jesus.

The problem is not what you and I accept of God but what you reject.

You reject God's Word as a lie, as Satanic, because you cannot reconcile Jesus giving His life l, nobody robbing Him of it, freely with God

The problem is your theories, not God. All of Scripture is true.

Your error is starting with tradition and theory, going to the Bible only to support your philosophy, and denouncing the remainder of God's word as demonic.

But the problem is you. I have no issue accepting God is r His Word (all of it). I do not see the contradiction because it does not exist (it is a contradiction within your philosophy, not a contradiction with God's Word).

You are getting rather shrill now. Calm down a little.
All of Scripture is true. The problem is that you cannot accept it because it would blow a hole in one of your doctrines.
You wrote:

I believe it was God's will to bruise Him, to put Him to grief, AND that He lay down His own life, nobody robbed Him of it. And I believe that men influenced by Satan murdered Jesus and were doing the desires of Satan.

First of all, it was not only God's will to put the Lord Jesus to grief, He actually did it! 'He has put Him to grief.' God has stricken the Shepherd (Mark 14:27) and you seem unable to admit this. Secondly, the men 'influenced by Satan' tried to kill Jesus, but failed. John 8:20. '....No one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.' John 8:59. 'Then they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.' These men were utterly unable to kill our Lord, until the time came for Him to lay down His life of His own accord.
Now in John 8:37ff, who was there? Was Pontius Pilate there? Was Herod there? Was the Roman execution squad there? No. The people who were there were those Jews who had initially believed in Christ (John 8:31). Did that include Caiaphas? Annas? The rest of the Sanhedrin? Hardly. So God's word tells us who was actually doing the will, not of Satan, but of God. "For truly against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done" Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28). Once again; where is Satan in those verses? Nowhere! You insist upon reading him in.

If you want to see satanic influence at the cross, you need only look at Mark 15:29-32 and Luke 23:36. Everybody was calling our Lord to come down from the cross. I know they were mocking Him, but what a temptation that must have been! "Let this Christ, the king of Israel, descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe!" So if He had come down imagine their confusion! What could they possibly have said or done but confess that Jesus really was the Christ? So why didn't He? Because not to die on the cross would have meant that all mankind was still in its sins. There would have been no atonement, no propitiation of God's righteous anger against sin, and Jesus, having disobeyed God, would no more have been a suitable sacrifice for sin.. And who would have been the victor of the cross? That's right; Satan!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It's telling that this thread has been allowed to go on this long. I have had threads where there was profitable interaction going on closed much earlier than this thread. Something seems not to be what it should be . . .

You are quite right. It was a waste of time to start the thread, since the issue had been flogged to death in two previous ones. Most of us, especially @JonC, have simply been repeating ourselves over and over again.
But there is another issue here. Some of us have complained in the past when threads have been stopped, and we have been told, usually by @Salty, to start a new one, . But when JonC wants to keep a thread open, all the other mods appear to bow the knee before him. Definitely not what it should be.

 

[JonC]

You are getting rather shrill now. Calm down a little.
All of Scripture is true. The problem is that you cannot accept it because it would blow a hole in one of your doctrines.
You wrote:

First of all, it was not only God's will to put the Lord Jesus to grief, He actually did it! 'He has put Him to grief.' God has stricken the Shepherd (Mark 14:27) and you seem unable to admit this. Secondly, the men 'influenced by Satan' tried to kill Jesus, but failed. John 8:20. '....No one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.' John 8:59. 'Then they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.' These men were utterly unable to kill our Lord, until the time came for Him to lay down His life of His own accord.
Now in John 8:37ff, who was there? Was Pontius Pilate there? Was Herod there? Was the Roman execution squad there? No. The people who were there were those Jews who had initially believed in Christ (John 8:31). Did that include Caiaphas? Annas? The rest of the Sanhedrin? Hardly. So God's word tells us who was actually doing the will, not of Satan, but of God. "For truly against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done" Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28). Once again; where is Satan in those verses? Nowhere! You insist upon reading him in.

If you want to see satanic influence at the cross, you need only look at Mark 15:29-32 and Luke 23:36. Everybody was calling our Lord to come down from the cross. I know they were mocking Him, but what a temptation that must have been! "Let this Christ, the king of Israel, descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe!" So if He had come down imagine their confusion! What could they possibly have said or done but confess that Jesus really was the Christ? So why didn't He? Because not to die on the cross would have meant that all mankind was still in its sins. There would have been no atonement, no propitiation of God's righteous anger against sin, and Jesus, having disobeyed God, would no more have been a suitable sacrifice for sin.. And who would have been the victor of the cross? That's right; Satan!

I am. The reason is that you outright denied that those men who killed Jesus were doing the desires of the Devil.

Christ wouldn't come down, and the men were not urging Him to do so. They were mocking Him.

You said this was Satan wanting Jesus to come down from the cross. You were wrong.

It was mocking....not a temptation.

Psalm 22:7–8 : All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
“Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”


I mean this in all sincerity - you have allowed yourself to be carried away by vain philosophy. It is not being shrill but morning how far you have allowed yourself to drift.

You change the taunts of those men from mocking to tempting.

You change Satan's desire to kill Jesus to Satan wanting Jesus to come down from the cross.

You change Scripture.

The sad part is those passages are right before you yet you still are blind.

 

[JonC]

You are quite right. It was a waste of time to start the thread, since the issue had been flogged to death in two previous ones. Most of us, especially @JonC, have simply been repeating ourselves over and over again.
But there is another issue here. Some of us have complained in the past when threads have been stopped, and we have been told, usually by @Salty, to start a new one, . But when JonC wants to keep a thread open, all the other mods appear to bow the knee before him. Definitely not what it should be.

Yes. And JonC will continue to repeat Scripture because it needs repeating.

If I close this thread then @Martin Marprelate will report it because I am involved (been there, done that). So there is a bit of hypocrisy in Martin's post.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It was mocking....not a temptation.

I know they were mocking Him,

 

[JonC]

John 8:38–44 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

 

[JonC]

No. You said it was Satan tempting Jesus to come down from the Cross because Satan did not desire Christ to die (you said that on the last thread).

The issue, of course, is that Jesus said those men who desired to kill Him were doing Satan's will.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate

Do you believe that the Jewish authorities who were seeking to kill Jesus were doing what they heard from Satan, doing the works of the Devil, wanting to do the desires of Satan (John 8:38-41)?

Do you believe that those Jews, in accordance with God's predetermined plan, nailed Jesus to the Cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death (Act 2:23)?

That seems to be your objection - not that anybody here believes that Jesus didn't lay down His own life, or that He didn't have authority over His own life, or anybody robs Him of His life, or that God was not pleased to crush Him, to put Him to grief.....we all believe those things.

But you specifically took offense to the idea that those men who were listening to Satan, doing Satan's work, desiring to kill Jesus, actually put Jesus to death.

You suggested that Satan did all he could to save Jesus' life - to prevent Him from dying on the cross. This contradicts Jesus' words that the men fought to kill Jesus because they were doing Satan's work and will, listening to his voice.

How do you explain the discrepancy?

 

[kyredneck]

Only Judas had a direct influence of Satan, according to scripture.

Wrong. That 'the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience' that crucified Christ was deeply involved is also apparent with Peter's denial, and not only Judas's betrayal, albeit with 'permission' (Judas was a child of the devil so no permission required):

31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22


30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Jn 14

Who came? Who appeared on the scene? How was this 'prince' manifested in this temporal realm?

3 Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jn 18

2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

 

[canadyjd]

Wrong. That 'the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience' that crucified Christ was deeply involved is also apparent with Peter's denial, and not only Judas's betrayal, albeit with 'permission' (Judas was a child of the devil so no permission required):

31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22


30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Jn 14

Who came? Who appeared on the scene? How was this 'prince' manifested in this temporal realm?

3 Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jn 18

2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

Satan had direct influence on Judas.

None of the other influence is direct. The closest is JonC’s repeated mention of the Pharisees doing what they “heard” from Satan.

Even that is not “direct”, as was mentioned there was no audible voice giving directions, no conversation.

As stated prior, the fact that Jesus determined the moment of His death when He said, “it is finished” and, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”. At that moment, the body of Jesus died.

So, Jesus lay down His life by His own authority in the midst of evil men doing the will of Satan by torturing Him.

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Satan had direct influence on Judas.

None of the other influence is direct. The closest is JonC’s repeated mention of the Pharisees doing what they “heard” from Satan.

Even that is not “direct”, as was mentioned there was no audible voice giving directions, no conversation.

They were children of the devil! The Serpent bruised the seed of the Woman through his children in this material realm. Is that a hard thing for you to accept? I've noticed hesitancy from both camps to embrace it and call a devil a devil. Maybe it's like Matthew 19:11, not everyone is able to accept it, that Satan has his people in this realm.

 

[canadyjd]

They were children of the devil! The Serpent bruised the seed of the Woman through his children in this material realm. Is that a hard thing for you to accept? I've noticed hesitancy from both camps to embrace it and call a devil a devil. Maybe it's like Matthew 19:11, not everyone is able to accept it, that Satan has his people in this realm.

Do you believe they are literally Satan’s children? That Satan had relations with their mothers?

Or…. Are they children of Satan because of their opposition to the things of God, in the case, Jesus as Messiah?

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Do you believe they are literally Satan’s children? That Satan had relations with their mothers?

What an inane thing to ask. Do you believe that God literally has His children? That God had relations with our mothers?

 

[kyredneck]

Or…. Are they children of Satan because of their opposition to the things of God, in the case, Jesus as Messiah?

Paul opposed the things of God, and God had separated him from the womb to preach the things of God. Paul was no devil.

There was no forgiveness for 'the devils' that killed Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

What an inane thing to ask. Do you believe that God literally has His children? That God had relations with our mothers?

Whew!!!! Thanks for clarifying. I met people who believe Satan, and demons, literally have children with women.

According to scripture, believers are adopted as God’s children. I know of no scripture that claims Sayan “adopted” people to be his children.

Peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No.

What are you saying "no" to? Are you denying that I said that the men were mocking?
Here you are again:

I know they were mocking Him

There is only one two-syllable word in that short sentence. What is it that you don't understand?

You said it was Satan tempting Jesus to come down from the Cross because Satan did not desire Christ to die (you said that on the last thread).

I certainly did. Is it not obvious? If Christ died on the cross, then Satan's power was gone. So obviously it would have been his last throw of the dice to get these people to urge the Lord Jesus to come down from the cross. How remarkable it is that four different sets of people (the huge majority of whom would not have been present at the altercation at John 8) should all mock our Lord in the same way. In Luke 4:13, we are told that the devil left Him 'until an opportune time.' If that time was not at Gethsemane and the cross, when do you think it was?

The issue, of course, is that Jesus said those men who desired to kill Him were doing Satan's will.

I've covered this at least three times, but here you are again. These men, who were those who had believed in Christ shortly before (John 8:31), took offense at His gracious words, and wanted to kill Him. Jesus said that their murderous intent was a sign that they were children of the devil rather than of God. Nowhere does the Lord Jesus say that Satan wanted to kill Him. But if he did, then now would have been a good time because it would have prevented our Lord from dying on the cross and redeeming Mankind. But of course, it was utterly impossible for these men to kill Him 'because His time had not yet come.' The great plan of the triune God, made in eternity, before ever there was a world, before there was a devil, decreed that Christ should die on a cross, bearing our sin and the curse attached to them.
Once Christ was on the cross, it was disaster for Satan. His last and only hope was to tempt our Lord to disobey the Father, break the covenant of redemption, and come down from the cross. Hence the mocking temptation.

It's all as clear as daylight. It is only your determination to stick with your faulty theory of the atonement that keeps you flogging this subject to death.

 

[JonC]

What are you saying "no" to? Are you denying that I said that the men were mocking?
Here you are again:

There is only one two-syllable word in that short sentence. What is it that you don't understand?

I certainly did. Is it not obvious? If Christ died on the cross, then Satan's power was gone. So obviously it would have been his last throw of the dice to get these people to urge the Lord Jesus to come down from the cross. How remarkable it is that four different sets of people (the huge majority of whom would not have been present at the altercation at John 8) should all mock our Lord in the same way. In Luke 4:13, we are told that the devil left Him 'until an opportune time.' If that time was not at Gethsemane and the cross, when do you think it was?

I've covered this at least three times, but here you are again. These men, who were those who had believed in Christ shortly before (John 8:31), took offense at His gracious words, and wanted to kill Him. Jesus said that their murderous intent was a sign that they were children of the devil rather than of God. Nowhere does the Lord Jesus say that Satan wanted to kill Him. But if he did, then now would have been a good time because it would have prevented our Lord from dying on the cross and redeeming Mankind. But of course, it was utterly impossible for these men to kill Him 'because His time had not yet come.' The great plan of the triune God, made in eternity, before ever there was a world, before there was a devil, decreed that Christ should die on a cross, bearing our sin and the curse attached to them.
Once Christ was on the cross, it was disaster for Satan. His last and only hope was to tempt our Lord to disobey the Father, break the covenant of redemption, and come down from the cross. Hence the mocking temptation.

It's all as clear as daylight. It is only your determination to stick with your faulty theory of the atonement that keeps you flogging this subject to death.

I am saying "no" to your walking back of your previous claim that the mocking was really Satan desiring that Jesus not die.

We know that Satan desired to kill Jesus because Jesus said to the Jews that sought to kill Him that they were doing the will of Satan, that they desired the things of the Devil, that they were listening to the lies of the Devil, who was a murder from the beginning. Jesus also told them that if they were children of God, doing God's will, then they would not desire to kill Him.


You make several mistakes in your philosophy. One of the most severe here is posting as if Satan and God were men. Satan is the adversary of man. But Satan cannot do anything without God (God is sovereign....Satan approaches the throne of God as our adversary, but cannot act against us without God allowing it). Another mistake you make is reducing God to nothing but a larger version of us (the big guy in the sky).

But you are wrong. What we see with Satan is not an attempt to prevent Christ's death, or to kill Him before His appointed time. What we see is the adversary. We see Satan's anger - not some plan to circumvent what is to come but Satan's fierce anger because he knows that his appointed time is short.


Scripture describes the killing of Jesus as unjust, as oppression. Scripture states that Satan's desire was to kill Jesus.

You say "but Satan wanted to kill Jesus to prevent Jesus from dying". That is your philosophy talking.

Peter explained that it was those men, doing the work of Satan, who put Jesus to death. God describes Christ's death as an an unjust judgment, that it was by oppression and judgement He was taken by men who believed the lie of Satan (the lie that Jesus was stricken by God).

And we even have Satan entering Judas when Jesus' appointed time came in order to turn Him over to those seeking to kill Him.


I have never before met a professing Christians fight so hard not to accept God's Word, one so intent on clinging to his theories and philosophy than you on this forum.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes. And JonC will continue to repeat Scripture because it needs repeating.

If I close this thread then @Martin Marprelate will report it because I am involved (been there, done that). So there is a bit of hypocrisy in Martin's post.

One of us is certainly guilty of hypocrisy, but I think you'll find it's you.
I have been looking at threads on this forum that have been closed recently, and noticed the following.

Penal Substitution Atonement Question. Closed without warning after 147 posts. You contributed extensively to the thread and made the last post on it, so I presume that it was you who closed it.
The Classic View (just a summary). Started by you, and closed after 183 posts by @Salty.
Will People be condemned for not believing in Jesus .......? Closed by Salty after 199 posts.
Is death God's punishment for sin? Closed by Salty after 121 posts.

I have neither reported nor complained about any of these threads. The hypocrisy is all on your side. I only ask why this thread is still going strong after 277 posts.

 

[canadyjd]

…..
Peter explained that it was those men, doing the work of Satan, who put Jesus to death.

Please provide the passage where Peter “explained” the men who killed Jesus were doing the work of Satan?

Thank you in advance

peace to you